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Thread: Sengoku: Total War (a Shogun mod for M2TW)

  1. #121

    Default Re: Sengoku: Total War (a Shogun mod for M2TW)

    When changing the edb scripts make sure to keep the unit recruitment to 1 and not below that.

  2. #122
    Razor's Avatar Licenced to insult
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    Default Re: Sengoku: Total War (a Shogun mod for M2TW)

    Ehm what do you mean by that?

  3. #123

    Icon5 Re: Sengoku: Total War (a Shogun mod for M2TW)

    What's wrong with Tsushima Island?

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  4. #124
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    Default Re: Sengoku: Total War (a Shogun mod for M2TW)

    Yes, you're correct. In the most recent version of the map I've moved the Imperial Court (papal states in vanilla M2TW) to that island and completely isolated it so no one can invade the island and no one can get out. Since Korea and China take no part in the mod (it would also widen the scope of the mod way too much, while I just want to focus on the Japanese civil war itself) I thought it wouldn't be a huge deal to remove the port, to prevent any unwanted interaction between the Imperial Court and other factions. However if I can prevent this unwanted interaction in some other way I might very well just put the port back in. I do doubt the use of it, because (if I remember correctly) traderoutes only start popping up when you have trade rights with other faction and there's no way to interact diplomatically with the Imperial Court and arrange a trade agreement.
    Last edited by Razor; September 13, 2019 at 07:59 AM.

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    Default Re: Sengoku: Total War (a Shogun mod for M2TW)

    Quote Originally Posted by sullivanclan1 View Post
    When changing the edb scripts make sure to keep the unit recruitment to 1 and not below that.
    After a good night's sleep I now understand your suggestion. Yes, I don't have any 0 turn recruitment in the mod. As of now Ashigaru units take 1 turn to recruit and Samurai units take 2 turns.

  6. #126

    Default Re: Sengoku: Total War (a Shogun mod for M2TW)

    Okay. I understand not wanting any faction to interact with the Imperial Court which would also include the danger of them being able to attack the Imperial Court.
    But I really don't think it should come at the cost of Tsushima being completely inaccessible.
    Maybe you could make a fictitious island that no one can land on for the Imperial Court to have their capital?
    That way, Tsushima can be a normal Island filled with trade resources that can make significant profits through trading.
    Last edited by Arima; September 13, 2019 at 05:39 PM.

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    Default Re: Sengoku: Total War (a Shogun mod for M2TW)

    I see your point. However, if I make Tsushima a normal island, it will be owned by rebels at the start and no one will trade with it anyway, unless it gets conquered by another faction, which will be the human player 99% of the time, IF it gets conquered at all. Also, moving the Imperial Court to a fictitious island would also cost me an extra province that I don't have (I already have 199 provinces, which is the maximum amount). I would have to delete one province somewhere to add that island, so I'd rather hide the Imperial Court on an existing island that most probably won't take part in the campaign anyhow. Perhaps I can still make trade work with the Imperial Court hidden on Tsushima while still keeping the island isolated. I would have to look into it, but as of now it has a low priority.

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    Default Re: Sengoku: Total War (a Shogun mod for M2TW)

    Here's an overview of the building roster that I'm working on:

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    A few notes:

    1) The buildings in green boxes aren't tied to a specific settlement level.
    2) When you upgrade from a blacksmith you can choose between a weaponsmith, an armourer and a gunsmith.
    3) There's a little room for more building types, but do keep in mind that M2TW only allows up to 24 buildings to show up in the settlement buildings tab properly. With that in mind I would like the maximum amount of buildings you can build in a province be around 24 as well.

    I'm not sure how to handle ports (military port, trade port, nanban trade port, pirate lairs?) as of yet, but I'll figure that one out as I get along. In the meantime, you're welcome to comment on it and give some input and ideas.
    Last edited by Razor; September 23, 2019 at 05:18 PM.

  9. #129

    Default Re: Sengoku: Total War (a Shogun mod for M2TW)

    Why not put the Imperial Court in a province with an inpassable mountainrange around it?
    Would be better than to put it on an island.

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    Default Re: Sengoku: Total War (a Shogun mod for M2TW)

    Quote Originally Posted by Gebilde View Post
    Why not put the Imperial Court in a province with an inpassable mountainrange around it?
    Would be better than to put it on an island.
    Because that would cost me an extra province that I don't have at the moment, because I've already reached the limit of 199 provinces. I could delete a minor province, but as of now I don't quite see the point and I would rather look and see how the current setup works out. It could very well be that you can still have a traderoute while Tsushima is isolated.
    Also, the Kyoto area will become very crowded, with Kyoto/Nijo, the Imperial Palace and then Enryaku-ji all bunched up right next to on another.

    But really, Tsushima isn't really important within the scope of the Sengoku campaign, because the campaign doesn't deal with Korea directly. Trade with Korea and China can be represented by trade resources/bonuses for the Hakata and Nagasaki and Kagoshima provinces.

  11. #131
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    Default Re: Sengoku: Total War (a Shogun mod for M2TW)

    Will you be using the units from the Shizoku no Senso mod?
    Member of the Beyond Skyrim Project

  12. #132

    Default Re: Sengoku: Total War (a Shogun mod for M2TW)

    Hi, very cool idea for mod, and things seem to be going good

    I'm kinda looking to spark back my passion for TW, and especially shogun games, so it's great to see this in progress. I made the mods for playable minor factions on expanded japan map for S2 which a lot of people seemed to like, but never finished all of them (there's like 150 clans, so it's really time consuming haha). What I miss the most in shogun games is the colorful armies of different clans. What I mean by that is when you conquer a territory or have a vassal, you will never really be recruiting their units, so all your armies look exactly the same, when that wasn't really the case as far as my knowledge of that period goes. Clans were mostly small in the earlier periods of the war, and most relied on alliances and merging their armies to be able to conquer others. When you look at old paintings from the period you can see the many colorful banners and mons, depicting the different clans.

    I think someone here mentioned already what I have in mind, or something similar at least. I.e. to make specific clan units (in the clan colors) recruitable from their home province. Now, I don't have any experience in modding medieval so I don't know if this is even possible, but I have a vague idea of how I would do it in S2. Each province would have a "unique" unit of ashigaru and samurai that is textured in the clan colors, with sashimono and all that jazz, but also allow you to recruit your normal units. The province specific units would be limited in number of course, because otherwise you would be recruiting an army of an entirely different clan, while the idea here is to just give a little bit of that color to the armies. I would guess that you can't have different looking units (models) with the same name (e.g. Yari Ashigaru), so I would name those units like "Yari Ashigaru (Ito)", "Yari Samurai (Sakai)" and so on for each clan. The units would be exactly the same in stats like all the others of that type, nothing unique in that sense (I really didn't like the 'special' clan units in S2, and especially the hero units). Again I have no idea if that's possible to do, or if you would even consider it and have time for it. But I hope you get what I mean

    Looking at the map, you don't plan on making any other clans? A lot of the map looks covered in rebels. If the problem is the number of factions possible in M2 I understand, but it would certainly be cool to see a bit more. Sucks that you removed Shoni :/

    All in all super cool looking mod, can't wait to see what else you come up with

    If you need any help, I would be glad, but I must say again that I have no experience in modding M2
    Wanna play as minor clans from expanded Japan by unamie5? Now you can: http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfile.../?id=428505886

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    Default Re: Sengoku: Total War (a Shogun mod for M2TW)

    Quote Originally Posted by Morrowgan View Post
    Will you be using the units from the Shizoku no Senso mod?
    No, at the moment I'm using units based on the units from the Imjin War mod, but I'm treating them as place holders. At some point I plan to make my own units.

  14. #134
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    Default Re: Sengoku: Total War (a Shogun mod for M2TW)

    Quote Originally Posted by Collateral_dmg View Post
    Hi, very cool idea for mod, and things seem to be going good

    I'm kinda looking to spark back my passion for TW, and especially shogun games, so it's great to see this in progress. I made the mods for playable minor factions on expanded japan map for S2 which a lot of people seemed to like, but never finished all of them (there's like 150 clans, so it's really time consuming haha). What I miss the most in shogun games is the colorful armies of different clans. What I mean by that is when you conquer a territory or have a vassal, you will never really be recruiting their units, so all your armies look exactly the same, when that wasn't really the case as far as my knowledge of that period goes. Clans were mostly small in the earlier periods of the war, and most relied on alliances and merging their armies to be able to conquer others. When you look at old paintings from the period you can see the many colorful banners and mons, depicting the different clans.

    I think someone here mentioned already what I have in mind, or something similar at least. I.e. to make specific clan units (in the clan colors) recruitable from their home province. Now, I don't have any experience in modding medieval so I don't know if this is even possible, but I have a vague idea of how I would do it in S2. Each province would have a "unique" unit of ashigaru and samurai that is textured in the clan colors, with sashimono and all that jazz, but also allow you to recruit your normal units. The province specific units would be limited in number of course, because otherwise you would be recruiting an army of an entirely different clan, while the idea here is to just give a little bit of that color to the armies. I would guess that you can't have different looking units (models) with the same name (e.g. Yari Ashigaru), so I would name those units like "Yari Ashigaru (Ito)", "Yari Samurai (Sakai)" and so on for each clan. The units would be exactly the same in stats like all the others of that type, nothing unique in that sense (I really didn't like the 'special' clan units in S2, and especially the hero units). Again I have no idea if that's possible to do, or if you would even consider it and have time for it. But I hope you get what I mean

    Looking at the map, you don't plan on making any other clans? A lot of the map looks covered in rebels. If the problem is the number of factions possible in M2 I understand, but it would certainly be cool to see a bit more. Sucks that you removed Shoni :/

    All in all super cool looking mod, can't wait to see what else you come up with

    If you need any help, I would be glad, but I must say again that I have no experience in modding M2
    Ah yes, Shogun 2. I do have it, but I've hardly ever played it, as I have a dislike for the Warscape engine and how the map looks and how the units feel and react etc. That's one of the reasons I wanted to make a Shogun mod for M2TW. I don't know your mod, but if you have information that you used for your mod that you would like to share (or any other kind of info that you think is interesting and important), be my guest.

    I understand what you're saying, and I think it's possible, but it's certainly a huge amount of work for just duplicate units. It's not what I will be focusing on in this mod as time is better spent elsewhere. And maybe you should look at it differently. Maybe if you conquer a province and recruit units from there, you could look at it as recruiting units from your vassal. It's just that the units bear your faction flag instead of their separate and independent faction flag. But you're right, it would add some more flavour to see the different colors of sashimono and nobori flags etc. but it would also make the battlefield very confusing for the player.
    I'm also not a big fan of faction-specific units, but I probably will make a few small differences between factions in unit stats (longer pikes for Oda clan Nagae-yari Ashigaru units with more attack, but less morale) and building effects (Oda clan stockpiles Teppo faster through trade buildings).

    As for the map and the number of clans, M2TW only allows up to 31 factions (of which 1 is the rebel faction and 1 is the Imperial Court). That leaves 29 factions. I've tried to include the most relevant clans for this time period, but at times it was a toss. The Shoni clan was one of them. I first had them included (with the Ryuzoji as shadow faction that will emerge), but I felt that the Shoni weren't that important anymore in this period of time and that the area was overcrowded and that I wasted a faction slot by including both the Shoni and the Ryuzoji. At the same time I felt that the Shimazu had it pretty easy in Southern Kyushu which was all owned by rebels, so I wanted to have an extra faction (the Ito clan as some sort of representation of the anti-Shimazu coalition) to challenge them a bit. I surely wish I could have included more factions, like the Shoni, but also the Kimotsuki, Sagara, Ukita, Ichijo, splitting up the Uesugi into the Nagao and the two Uesugi branches etc. etc. In one way or another the rest of the clans will be represented as a sub faction of the rebel faction. If you view the settlement names you can see the name of the rebels that own the settlement right next to the settlement name. But they won't be separate and playable factions.

    Also, I reserved one faction slot that I plan to use for a rebellion that will happen under certain circumstances (for example: when a faction has x amount of provinces including Kyoto, Ishiyama Honganji/Osaka, the faction leader dies and the heir has little authority). Nothing is set in stone, but it's something that I would like to include as some sort of endgame mechanic.

    And thanks! What I need is some feedback and maybe some additional info on possible buildings, pictures etc.

  15. #135

    Default Re: Sengoku: Total War (a Shogun mod for M2TW)

    Ah ok, I didn't know it was only 31 factions. Ye that kinda sucks, so it makes sense to include the bigger clans. As I never modded M2, do all those rebel sub factions have the grey color scheme, or can you give some color to the units? But I guess that would also be additional work. Concerning the nagae yari, I found that around mid 16th century (maybe a bit closer to the end of the period) they began to be commonly used, and by samurai as well. Ashigaru took on the teppo, and samurai were used as mass infantry, often wielding long spears. It's kinda similar to european pike and shot period, but not quite the same. Also the fighting style was different, as the long yari was used more as a club, thrusting down on the heads of enemies. You can see it in many japanese movies. But I guess that doesn't really matter as there is no such animation

    As for the vassal units, ye I guess it would be a bit confusing if your army looked like a rainbow hahah. Some people used to do that in S2 multiplayer, funny as hell

    I will finish with my exams this week, so I will have time to get into some reading and searching. I found some interesting stuff when working on my mods, at least as far as clans are concerned.

    For a little start, if you're interested in some battle tactics here's a short document I found https://philbancients.blogspot.com/2013/12/battle-formations-for-samurai-armies-in.html
    Last edited by Collateral_dmg; September 16, 2019 at 08:00 AM.
    Wanna play as minor clans from expanded Japan by unamie5? Now you can: http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfile.../?id=428505886

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    Default Re: Sengoku: Total War (a Shogun mod for M2TW)

    Quote Originally Posted by Collateral_dmg View Post
    Ah ok, I didn't know it was only 31 factions. Ye that kinda sucks, so it makes sense to include the bigger clans. As I never modded M2, do all those rebel sub factions have the grey color scheme, or can you give some color to the units? But I guess that would also be additional work. Concerning the nagae yari, I found that around mid 16th century (maybe a bit closer to the end of the period) they began to be commonly used, and by samurai as well. Ashigaru took on the teppo, and samurai were used as mass infantry, often wielding long spears. It's kinda similar to european pike and shot period, but not quite the same. Also the fighting style was different, as the long yari was used more as a club, thrusting down on the heads of enemies. You can see it in many japanese movies. But I guess that doesn't really matter as there is no such animation

    As for the vassal units, ye I guess it would be a bit confusing if your army looked like a rainbow hahah. Some people used to do that in S2 multiplayer, funny as hell

    I will finish with my exams this week, so I will have time to get into some reading and searching. I found some interesting stuff when working on my mods, at least as far as clans are concerned.

    For a little start, if you're interested in some battle tactics here's a short document I found https://philbancients.blogspot.com/2013/12/battle-formations-for-samurai-armies-in.html
    If you can give me some sources about the use of nagae-yari by samurai, that would be great. I wasn't quite aware of that, and I would like to know more about this and evaluate if it's appropriate to add to my unit list or not. And yes, I'm aware of the fact that he nagae-yari was most probably used to slap it on someone's head , though it would be tough to replicate in M2TW.

  17. #137
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    Default Re: Sengoku: Total War (a Shogun mod for M2TW)

    Also, here's a unit list to give you a general idea of what you can expect:

    Ashigaru:
    Nagae-yari Ashigaru
    Yumi Ashigaru
    Teppo Ashigaru

    Samurai:
    Yari Samurai
    Nodachi Samurai
    Yumi Samurai
    Teppo Samurai

    Cavalry:
    Yari Cavalry
    Yumi Cavalry
    Teppo Cavalry
    Horo-shu (General's Bodyguard)

    Warrior Monks:
    Naginata Sohei
    Yumi Sohei
    Teppo Sohei

    Dojo/Guild units:
    Yari Hero
    Nodachi Hero
    Yumi Hero

    Artillery:
    Catapult
    Nanban Bombard

    Ships:
    Kobaya
    Sekibune
    Atakebune
    O-atakebune
    Mekurabune
    Nanban Galleon

    Mercenaries:
    Yamabushi
    Nanban Galleon

    Miscellaneous:
    Peasants (only for rebels)
    Last edited by Razor; September 19, 2019 at 09:53 PM.

  18. #138

    Default Re: Sengoku: Total War (a Shogun mod for M2TW)

    I'm actually not 100% sure about samurai using nagae yari. I guess I read that some time ago in some forum maybe, so the info is not super credible. Any text that I found mentions ashigaru as using them, but it's also never said explicitly that samurai didn't use them. I asked someone who is running a historical blog, and they say that samurai pretty much never used nagae yari, so there's that. Is it possible to give different 'types' of weapons to one unit in M2? So like spears and naginata/tsuruhashi or kanabo in the same unit? Probably not kanabo since they would work like a two handed mace/sword. I mention that since samurai used all sorts of weapons for close combat, as they were used as shock troops. Maybe in addition to yari samurai, you could make another shock troop type of unit, kind of like polearm heavy infantry (with naginatas, kanabo and such weapons). It would add a bit more variety. Will the nodachi be used more as anti cavalry? That's what the nodachi was used for at least historically.

    The nagae yari was used by pretty much everyone during the period you chose for the mod. The only difference was that not all clans used the same length. Oda had the longest spears, about 5,5 m in lenght. Other clans between 3,5 and 4,8 m. I don't know if that can be replicated in M2.

    The unit list is pretty much what I would have in mind, so I like it Still not sure about 'hero' units though. What kind of units would they be? Much smaller in size I imagine, but very strong?

    Here's a bunch of stuff I found, concerning a whole lot of things:
    http://themartialscholar.yolasite.com/resources/Samurai%20Warfare.pdf
    http://www.koryu.nl/koryu.nl/artik.a...ory_Japan.html
    https://www.samurai-archives.com/sts.html
    https://gunbai-militaryhistory.blogspot.com/
    Last edited by Collateral_dmg; September 23, 2019 at 12:19 PM.
    Wanna play as minor clans from expanded Japan by unamie5? Now you can: http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfile.../?id=428505886

  19. #139
    Razor's Avatar Licenced to insult
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    Default Re: Sengoku: Total War (a Shogun mod for M2TW)

    I thought that samurai with nagae-yari was a little off as well. It's a weapon used in formation suitable for lesser-trained and massed ashigaru and not used for an individualistic and highly-skilled fighting style that the samurai were trained in. I'm sure that there are exceptions, but as a rule of thumb, that's how I would distinguish the ashigaru from the samurai in terms of units and gameplay.

    In M2TW you can give units only one primary and a secondary weapon, but that works best only for ranged units that need a backup (secondary) weapon. If you specify two melee weapons the units may switch from primary to secondary weapons during melee combat which can be undesirable.
    You could set the unit to have just one primary weapon, but for visuals add a naginata model among the yari models so that the unit appears to be fighting with both yari and naginata. It's impossible to give the two weapons different stats since they're basically just one primary weapon in the stats.
    Also, weren't naginata regarded as weapons used by females and sohei? I've read that the naginata fell out of use by samurai and was replaced by the yari.

    Not sure about including the kanabo, because I already have the nodachi samurai as shock infantry. These are elite units are meant to be packed full with weapons with the nodachi being the primary weapon. And yes, they also have a bonus fighting cavalry and I believe they also instill fear on enemy units.

    Ah yes, the various lengths of the nagae-yari. I intend to make the nagae-yari of the Oda clan indeed longer. I've read some time ago that the longer nagae-yari of the Oda were used to compensate for the lesser morale of the ashigaru of the area around Mino province and to give them an edge over other nagae yari by using much longer spears. I can't say if this is completely true, but in my mod I'm looking into making longer nagae-yari for the Oda clan (and possibly the Saito clan as well) with higher attack, but less morale. On a similar note I've read that the Uesugi had shorter nagae-yari, which would translate into less attack and higher morale. These are just ideas that needs testing and checking for imbalance etc..

    The hero units will represent the sword saints and yari and bow equivalents along with a following of students that you can recruit from a sword dojo, spear dojo or bow dojo. These dojo buildings act as guilds so you can't just build them whenever you want like regular buildings, but only when the game is offering one in a certain province. Perhaps these heroes will be made recruitable generals with their own portrait and traits and ancillaries. Again, nothing is set in stone, but I thought it would spice things up a bit.

    On a similar note I would like to include red devil units in red armour in one way or another. Perhaps, they could be mercenary units only recruitable for generals when they have a certain amount of dread? Perhaps I could give the kanabo to one of the red devil units, as the kanabo was often used by oni (troll/devil/demon) in Japanese mythology?

    Also, thanks for the links. I'll look into them.
    Last edited by Razor; September 23, 2019 at 09:11 PM.

  20. #140

    Default Re: Sengoku: Total War (a Shogun mod for M2TW)

    Yea I meant just the visual appearance of the different weapons, didn't express myself well enough

    The naginata being used by females is mostly true for late Edo period and onwards. Naginata is one of the oldest weapons, dating as far as early 11th century. So it was pretty grounded in military use up until Sengoku Jidai, when the spear became the weapon of choice for most. But still you can see the naginata being used. Here's a couple paintings where you can see them in use, and that date to the Sengoku Jidai:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    https://www.alamy.com/detail-of-part...e60325399.html

    https://www.alamy.com/detail-of-part...e60303901.html

    You can see in these images (that are all part of one big screen, the siege of Osaka) the naginata is not all that rare. You can also see different types of jumonji yari and 'normal' yari. Since samurai were used as shock troops, they used a variety of weapons (remember that they were the ones paying for them - and their armour as well). Of course, you couldn't use the naginta in mass formations. That's why you see samurai using them. After the ashigaru spear walls engaged, if one side started to run, samurai would charge out of the formation (they were kept inside the pike blocks to keep cohesion and morale) to kill the fleeing enemy, or to defend their own fleeing ashigaru. So my idea is, if you would like it of course, to make another samurai unit that's armed with various spears and naginatas (using one weapon type like you said). These would basically be your heavy infantry (or polearm infantry), something like dismounted knights from M2, used for breaking the enemy soft spots. The yari samurai would be your 'armoured' spearmen I guess.

    I think that Oda nagae yari being longer had nothing to do with low morale or anything like that. It's just what he preferred. As you said the length varies a lot, and different daimyos preferred different lengths. Since there were so many different choices, I guess you can make a couple of such units, changing the stats around a bit, just to give some more variety.

    Interesting idea about heroes. I didn't know you can make recruitable generals in M2. Although I would imagine these 'heroes' more as officers, rather than generals. Red devils being mercenary units just doesn't feel right :/ I forgot if there are special buildings in specific cities in M2. If yes, you can make them recruitable from their province for those who control it, that way it would be more like recruiting a vassal.

    Hope the links will be useful. If I find anything else I'll let you know
    Wanna play as minor clans from expanded Japan by unamie5? Now you can: http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfile.../?id=428505886

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