Sengoku: Total War (a Shogun mod for M2TW)

[Gigantus]

I think at one stage we had that, with the banners enlarged by 50% and without bouncing when the unit got selected, highlights only.

[Razor]

I think at one stage we had that, with the banners enlarged by 50% and without bouncing when the unit got selected, highlights only.

I guess it all boils down to personal preference and intent.


Also a quick update. Development is slow, but steady. I have little to show for at the moment. I'm currently working on 2D and 3D assets which takes a lot of time organizing textures, working out models and stuff, but it's getting there, trust me . I've also started working on basic unit models such as the samurai model trying to figure out how I should model and organize the texture part of the armor inside textures. If you know a bit about samurai armour, you'd know that one armour set consists of a lot of different parts that all match together in terms of style and color. Therefore it would be impossible to get a decent amount of variation within a samurai unit if I only use 1024x1024 texture size used in vanilla M2TW. I could get 3 (if I push it maybe 4) with the standard texture size, but it would be too cramped within the texture and would leave you with hardly any variation. So I've decided to increase the texture size to 2048x2048 for at least samurai units, which adds a lot of room to play with. I intend to have 12 armour sets for samurai units (which is the maximum amount that can be portrayed at any time within a unit apparently). For the ashigaru units I probably stick to 1024x1024 textures which allows me to have 4 variations. Believe it or not, but within ashigaru units there was quite a bit of uniformity - much more than within samurai units - because the ashigaru all received their armour from their lord, which was mass-produced and had a simpler construction and "less" quality to it. In contrast, samurai all had their own unique armour and therefore showed a lot more variety.
Anyway, I've finished making the 3 basic helmet models of the multi-plate kabuto, the zunari kabuto and the momonari kabuto, which will form the basis of the helmet arsenal of the samurai. As for the armour sets, I'm currently thinking of 2 red-lacquered armour sets, 4 'brownish'/rusty armour sets and 6 black-lacquered armour sets for samurai units. Or perhaps 3-3-6 (since there are 3 helmet styles to work with).


I also had to tackle another issue concerning the side arms of units. All ashigaru units will get a cheap mass-produced uchigatana/katana. However I wasn't so sure what to do with the samurai. Despite reading about the katana and how it became more prominent durin the Sengoku period and how it replaced the tachi more and more I can't help but seeing in almost every depiction samurai wearing nearly always a tachi or katana in tachi-style (meaning cutting edge down) rather than a sword or katana in katana-style (meaning cutting edge upwards). Now I always had the intention of giving generals and officers all tachi-style swords (because cavalry, more inclined to tradition etc.). Concerning the 'regular' foot samurai I'm still in doubt: should I give them a tachi as well or should I give them an uchigatana/katana instead? Or should I give them a tachi worn katana-style (since it's believed that's how the katana evolved from the tachi)? Following a similar thought process: should I give samurai a tanto or a wakizashi as second side arm?

Anyway, 2D and 3D assets it is for now.

[Gigantus]

Like your dedication to historical details.

[Collateral_dmg]

Awesome to hear you're starting with the units. And it's cool that samurai will actually have armour sets, unlike my mod where I have to mix armour pieces (since I don't know rigging well enough. But at least the armour is in natural black/grey/brown shades so it's not too noticable). The colour variation sounds about right. Will you be making any kind of do-maru types for daimyo/hatamoto, which were usually more colorful?

As for swords, I would probably go for the tachi style worn facing down. What I could find regarding wartime or being in hostile territories is that the katana/tachi was worn facing down so it's easier to pull out the sword and be ready to fight. That also makes sense practically if you think about it I guess (not that I'm a sword expert though). And I would give the samurai a wakizashi rather than a tanto, it was the 'companion sword' after all

Be sure to post some pics when you make more progress ;D

[Razor]

Like your dedication to historical details.

My motto is: while you're at it, you might as well get it right the first time as much as possible.

Awesome to hear you're starting with the units. And it's cool that samurai will actually have armour sets, unlike my mod where I have to mix armour pieces (since I don't know rigging well enough. But at least the armour is in natural black/grey/brown shades so it's not too noticable). The colour variation sounds about right. Will you be making any kind of do-maru types for daimyo/hatamoto, which were usually more colorful?

As for swords, I would probably go for the tachi style worn facing down. What I could find regarding wartime or being in hostile territories is that the katana/tachi was worn facing down so it's easier to pull out the sword and be ready to fight. That also makes sense practically if you think about it I guess (not that I'm a sword expert though). And I would give the samurai a wakizashi rather than a tanto, it was the 'companion sword' after all

Be sure to post some pics when you make more progress ;D

Yes, eventually I will add armour sets that will fit a daimyo, ranging from traditional ones to more modern. But that's still a long way off.

As for your remarks about the katana, it appears (so I've read) that the tachi was more suitable while on horseback. If you go on foot, the way it's mounted (horizontally) with fittings attached to a cord around the waist bouncing up and down while running and its size made it a bit cumbersome. The katana was not only shorter, but also tucked into the sash/obi more vertically. Also, edge upwards made it easier to draw the sword and attack in one single move, as it's basically one single action, whereas a tachi needed to be unsheathed before you could make a slashing movement, which was slightly slower.

Concerning the wakizashi as the companion sword, I've come to understand that basically any type sword can be paired to any type. There was no clear rule and it was all up to the preference of the samurai in question. A tachi could very well be paired to a tanto but also an uchigatana or a wakizashi. If there is a rule it would be that one sword was longer and the other shorter, which corresponds with the meaning of "daisho". I'm personally leaning towards a tanto, but if I make it slightly longer than usual it could again be considered a wakizashi, so...

If I have something that's worth showing off, I will. My 3D Max file is a bit of a mess at the moment, because I have all assets together in one file. This allows me to see how they fit together and get the scale correct.

[Vladyvid]

It all sounds mighty interesting, but a picture is worth a thousand words. Come on show us some of those armours!

[Razor]

It all sounds mighty interesting, but a picture is worth a thousand words. Come on show us some of those armours!

Alright then. Have some.

Some of them show comparisons between the Imjin War models that I currently use and the new ones.

One of the pics shows my complete work file in whch all assets and old and temporary stuff are stored. This allows me to scale things correctly. I scaled everything based on the average length of a Japanese during the Sengoku period which was around 1,6 meters (the remains of Date Masamune was measured at 1,59 meters in height). Using this as standard to work with, makes the katana around 100 cm, the tachi 110 cm, the teppo 130 cm, the nodachi/odachi 150 cm, the yari variants 3 meters, the nagae-yari variants 3,5, 4,5, 5, and 5,5 meters.

Fun fact: the old samurai base model from the Imjin War mod has 6000 polygons and my new WIP samurai base model has 4000 (!). Yes, the old models have a lot of unnecessary polygons.

Many things are still WIP. The leg armour still needs the knee protectors, the sashimono texture needs to be bigger to allow more details and I will also try to make it more realistic. The yari variants all need to have new textures for their shafts, the tachi need mountings, I still need to make the tanto and wakizashi models and textures, etc. etc.
My plan is to get one base model for samurai and one base model for the ashigaru finished and make them work and look properly in-game and work from there.

[Vladyvid]

Looking very cool i must say, thanks for the preview!

Im wondering one thing, are you going to use some custom animations for samurai combat? I imagine that would be ideal, but whats your take on that?
Also, any idea when we might see a release of the mod? This year? Any ideas?

[Collateral_dmg]

Beatiful work on the models, really love the variety of yaris and katanas. It's gonna be one hell of a mod

[mixerdust]

How will the siege battles play out?

[Razor]

Looking very cool i must say, thanks for the preview!

Im wondering one thing, are you going to use some custom animations for samurai combat? I imagine that would be ideal, but whats your take on that?
Also, any idea when we might see a release of the mod? This year? Any ideas?

Thanks and you're welcome! Custom animations for samurai combat would be nice to have, but aren't that necessary. I can get away with using vanilla animations for pretty much all units. Of course, certain weapons were used in a specific way that would require new animations to make the whole thing more accurate and authentic, but it's not a deal breaker (for me at least).

As for a release date, I hope to release something by the end of the year.

Beatiful work on the models, really love the variety of yaris and katanas. It's gonna be one hell of a mod

Thanks. Let's hope so! Also, I totally forgot about your mod! I really need to check it out again.

How will the siege battles play out?

I haven't modified the settlements yet, so as of now you'd still play siege battles on vanilla medieval settlements. I have deleted ladders and siege towers, so you can only use rams to get inside a settlement. I might add Japanese settlements from the Imjin War mod to this mod, since it's better than nothing I guess, but ultimately I hope to make my own Japanese settlements with moats and several layers of defense.

[Collateral_dmg]

Thanks. Let's hope so! Also, I totally forgot about your mod! I really need to check it out again.

I'm sure it will be great

I have at least 2 weeks completely free now so I'll definitely be making a lot of progress. Still making new sashimonos, trying to figure out what types I want to include for hatamoto units to make them really stand out, plus more weapons and textures too. Then there are uma-jirushi banners which are really wild looking, so I'll try to think of something there too. The battlefield will definitely look (and play) completely different from what it is in vanilla, that's basically my goal

[IGdood]

Are you creating all these assets from scratch? Maybe if you grab some assets from the Imjin War mod (with permission) it might help with taking some workload off

[Razor]

I'm sure it will be great

I have at least 2 weeks completely free now so I'll definitely be making a lot of progress. Still making new sashimonos, trying to figure out what types I want to include for hatamoto units to make them really stand out, plus more weapons and textures too. Then there are uma-jirushi banners which are really wild looking, so I'll try to think of something there too. The battlefield will definitely look (and play) completely different from what it is in vanilla, that's basically my goal

That sounds nice. So you're treating the hatamoto as an actual unit? I interpret the hatamoto as Gokenin/close vassals/inner circle of the daimyo, which in the game would be represented by the generals rather than it being an actual battle unit. I use the Horo-shu as general's bodyguard unit.

Are you creating all these assets from scratch? Maybe if you grab some assets from the Imjin War mod (with permission) it might help with taking some workload off

I've created them from scratch. The whole problem with assets from the Imjin War mod is that they just aren't that great. Some parts are ok-ish, but others are just so horrible that I'm better of creating them from scratch, knowing that the geometry is straight and mirrored. The teppo model from the Imjin War mod is a notable example of this as the model was a complete disaster (it was skewed, had gaps etc. etc.). Some models are just inefficient and had a high polygon count in places that were totally unnecessary. For example, a helmet I created has exactly 500 polygons, while the Imjin War variant of the exact same type of helmet has 1144 polygons, over twice as much.
In many cases I'm better off creating the assets myself than using assets from the Imjin War mod.

[Gigantus]

I haven't modified the settlements yet, so as of now you'd still play siege battles on vanilla medieval settlements. I have deleted ladders and siege towers, so you can only use rams to get inside a settlement. I might add Japanese settlements from the Imjin War mod to this mod, since it's better than nothing I guess, but ultimately I hope to make my own Japanese settlements with moats and several layers of defense.

I can't recall our permissions in detail, but if you ask Seether then you might be able to use our settlement models from RotK.

[Collateral_dmg]

That sounds nice. So you're treating the hatamoto as an actual unit? I interpret the hatamoto as Gokenin/close vassals/inner circle of the daimyo, which in the game would be represented by the generals rather than it being an actual battle unit. I use the Horo-shu as general's bodyguard unit.

Well, for what it's worth, going by this picture the hatamoto wasn't only the immediate elite guardians of the daimyo. The term encompasses a large number of people, serving many different functions.




There were many people 'under the banner', and the hatamoto also had to provide a certain number of samurai and ashigaru usually (much like other high ranking samurai). There were also probably foot guards along the horse guards. So for unit variety I'll make a foot hatamoto guard unit as well as a mounted unit. They will of course be very limited in number, only maybe 2 or 3 available, and much smaller than other units, perhaps 20-30 men in size. But all this will be made up for by their elite training and unconditional loyalty.

I found this little book by Turnbull which has some good info, if you wanna check it out http://the-eye.eu/public/WorldTracke...20Hatamoto.pdf

[Vladyvid]

Well, for what it's worth, going by this picture the hatamoto wasn't only the immediate elite guardians of the daimyo. The term encompasses a large number of people, serving many different functions.




There were many people 'under the banner', and the hatamoto also had to provide a certain number of samurai and ashigaru usually (much like other high ranking samurai). There were also probably foot guards along the horse guards. So for unit variety I'll make a foot hatamoto guard unit as well as a mounted unit. They will of course be very limited in number, only maybe 2 or 3 available, and much smaller than other units, perhaps 20-30 men in size. But all this will be made up for by their elite training and unconditional loyalty.

I found this little book by Turnbull which has some good info, if you wanna check it out http://the-eye.eu/public/WorldTracke...20Hatamoto.pdf

So do you have a separate mod about this period? Can you give a link where we can follow your work?

[Collateral_dmg]

So do you have a separate mod about this period? Can you give a link where we can follow your work?

Don't know how I feel about linking my stuff in other peoples threads, but it's a mod for shogun 2 quite similar to this one. You can find it under WIP, ideas and proposals subforum. I should probably put a link in my signature

Oh and btw Razor, if you want any models for sashimonos I can send them to you. Some stuff I made and some are from S2 (the 'special' ones from DLC). Should be pretty simple low poly stuff. They are 3ds max files and I have CS2 files also.

[Razor]

I can't recall our permissions in detail, but if you ask Seether then you might be able to use our settlement models from RotK.

Hmmm, perhaps I might. The settlements from RoTK are still very different from Japanese castles. Perhaps I could ask if I could use a number assets, since that might be of more interest? Thanks for the suggestion, btw.

Well, for what it's worth, going by this picture the hatamoto wasn't only the immediate elite guardians of the daimyo. The term encompasses a large number of people, serving many different functions.



There were many people 'under the banner', and the hatamoto also had to provide a certain number of samurai and ashigaru usually (much like other high ranking samurai). There were also probably foot guards along the horse guards. So for unit variety I'll make a foot hatamoto guard unit as well as a mounted unit. They will of course be very limited in number, only maybe 2 or 3 available, and much smaller than other units, perhaps 20-30 men in size. But all this will be made up for by their elite training and unconditional loyalty.

I found this little book by Turnbull which has some good info, if you wanna check it out http://the-eye.eu/public/WorldTracke...20Hatamoto.pdf

Thanks for the link! Not sure if I've seen that book already, but I've quickly read through it. It's tricky to include something the Hatamoto in a Total War game because of game limitations. I guess there are several ways to do it. My approach would be to have a Samurai foot guard unit and a Samurai horse guard unit, apart from the general's personal bodyguard unit.

Don't know how I feel about linking my stuff in other peoples threads, but it's a mod for shogun 2 quite similar to this one. You can find it under WIP, ideas and proposals subforum. I should probably put a link in my signature

Oh and btw Razor, if you want any models for sashimonos I can send them to you. Some stuff I made and some are from S2 (the 'special' ones from DLC). Should be pretty simple low poly stuff. They are 3ds max files and I have CS2 files also.

I don't mind linking your mod in this thread as both your mod and my mod are about the same period, but not for the same game. But indeed, putting it in your signature is also a good idea, since people can quickly click your signature and check out your mod.
Also, Sure, I'm interested in taking a look at the sashimono models. I'm not familiar with CS2 files, but I definitely know 3ds max files.

[Vladyvid]

Hope i didnt stir up any animosity between your clans, i mean mods. When one is called Razor, and the other one Collateral_dmg, it sounds like easy to get hurt.

Best of luck to you both!