"Ironic" usage of the Nazi salute in Germany and Austria (sense of humour required)

[bigdaddy1204]

Hi folks, today I thought I'd share a bizarre and amusing piece of information.

It all started when I began researching the use of the peaked cap. The peaked cap is a type of hat that is usually worn by military personnel, especially officers, as well as other minor officials such as customs officers, police, and even railway workers. I started to wonder why railway workers were wearing the peaked cap, given its association with the military. Turns out the peaked cap originated in the early 19th century, and became popular with a lot of people working in these kind of jobs due to its convenience and the fact it was less cumbersome than the tricorn and bicorn hats of the Napoleonic era.

This then led on to an interest in the military salute, in which members of the armed force typically raise one hand to the brow. I remember hearing that this stems from the medieval period. In many countries, the peak of a peaked cap is also called a 'visor'. The custom of raising the hand to the forehead comes from the medieval practice of lifting the visor to show one's face, which would in the later middle ages have been covered by the visor of one's helmet.

While reading about the salute, eventually I ended up reading about Germany, which led to me an article about the Nazi salute and its origins. I'm not really interested in that period (too depressing!), so I skipped straight to the "post 1945" section, where I found the below information that I found so amusing that I decided to make a post about it. I don't know if humour translates well across the internet and what made me laugh out loud may not be funny at all to some readers. But I confess I did find the case of Prince Ernst August of Hannover hilarious.

Today in Germany, Nazi salutes in written form, vocally, and even straight-extending the right arm as a saluting gesture (with or without the phrase), are illegal. It is a criminal offence punishable by up to three years of prison (Strafgesetzbuch section 86a). Usage for art, teaching and science is allowed unless "the existence of an insult results from the form of the utterance or the circumstances under which it occurred". Use of the salute has also been illegal in Austria since the end of World War II.

Usage that is "ironic and clearly critical of the Hitler Greeting" is exempt, which has led to legal debates as to what constitutes ironic use. One case involved Prince Ernst August of Hanover who was brought to court after using the gesture as a commentary on the behavior of an unduly zealous airport baggage inspector. On 23 November 2007, the Amtsgericht Cottbus sentenced Horst Mahler to six months of imprisonment without parole for having, according to his own claims, ironically performed the Hitler salute when reporting to prison for a nine-month term a year earlier. The following month, a pensioner named Roland T was given a prison term of five months for, amongst other things, training his dog Adolf to raise his right paw in a Nazi salute every time the command "Heil Hitler!" was uttered.

What do you think about this? Are there any other examples of "ironic" use, especially where this might be considered vaguely amusing? And am I the only one that finds the commentary on over-zealous airport baggage inspectors amusing, or do other people feel the same? Also, what are your thoughts on the origin of the military salute? Is this the correct origin? Or is there another explanation for this strange tradition?

[athanaric]

I'm not really interested in that period (too depressing!),

Same here. Also, I find people who obsess about this topic highly suspect. They probably admire the Nazis on some level.

What do you think about this? Are there any other examples of "ironic" use, especially where this might be considered vaguely amusing? And am I the only one that finds the commentary on over-zealous airport baggage inspectors amusing, or do other people feel the same? Also, what are your thoughts on the origin of the military salute? Is this the correct origin? Or is there another explanation for this strange tradition?

It's incredibly sad really, and it shows that German lawmakers don't understand the concept of free speech (which is ironic given thr context). The "good" news is they're not alone in Europe. Have you heard about that Scottish guy (goes by the name "Count Dankula"on youtube) who taught his pug the Nazi salute, as a prank he wanted to pull on his gf? He was given a prison sentence recently, as far as I've followed the case. Because nothing says "hardcore Nazi" like a pug, one of the most deformed animal breeds on earth, saluting on cue.

Edit: there's an even better case I forgot about. Last year (IIRC), a Chinese tourist was fined in Germany for making a mock Hitler salute in front of the Reichstag. And the German government goes on to lecture the Chinese on human rights and free speech. F---ing embarrassing.

[paleologos]

Maybe this is a topic for political academy, or maybe it is just my response to it that makes me think so.
This is what I think:

The zeal of certain authorities to silence any expression that might reveal the existence of nazi sympathizers in their area of responsibility is itself highly suspect.
Especially in countries like Germany and Austria -that made up the heartland of the 3rd reich- the zeal to suppress the expression of nazi sympathies is very likely to overcompensate for their knowledge that the de-nazification of their societies was incomplete.
I certainly cannot laugh at this.

You see, there is one side of the argument that says it is wrong to suppress such expressions because all we achieve with this method is to simply push them (bigots, extremists, and what not) "under the carpet" - the problem will fester and become worse.
This is the position of Slavoj Žižek. See Political correctness solidifies hatred.

The other side of the argument says that the more you allow free debate in a society, the more polarized it gets because of confirmation bias:
What this means is that when the facts given to me during a debate do not confirm my preconceptions I will be very likely to receive them with great reservation, or downplay their significance, or try to rationalize them away, or outright disregard them.
However, when he facts given to me do confirm my preconceptions, then I become more entrenched in those preconceptions. (See Facts Don't Win Fights)

So when a population that is not uniform in their worldviews are bombarded with argumentation form both extremes of a debate, then, given enough time, their worldviews will become sclerotic.
Especially when there is a likelihood of political consequences to the outcome of public discourse (such as a change in tax policy, or the legislature taking sides in cultural disputes), people can even become willing to defend their preconceptions with physical zeal. (Remember Charlottesville?)

The end result is that moderate people get stuck between a rock and a hard place.
(Ergo, I cannot find this funny.)

[athanaric]

Maybe this is a topic for political academy, or maybe it is just my response to it that makes me think so.
This is what I think:

The zeal of certain authorities to silence any expression that might reveal the existence of nazi sympathizers in their area of responsibility is itself highly suspect.
Especially in countries like Germany and Austria -that made up the heartland of the 3rd reich- the zeal to suppress the expression of nazi sympathies is very likely to overcompensate for their knowledge that the de-nazification of their societies was incomplete.
I certainly cannot laugh at this.

You see, there is one side of the argument that says it is wrong to suppress such expressions because all we achieve with this method is to simply push them (bigots, extremists, and what not) "under the carpet" - the problem will fester and become worse.
This is the position of Slavoj Žižek. See Political correctness solidifies hatred.

The other side of the argument says that the more you allow free debate in a society, the more polarized it gets because of confirmation bias:
What this means is that when the facts given to me during a debate do not confirm my preconceptions I will be very likely to receive them with great reservation, or downplay their significance, or try to rationalize them away, or outright disregard them.
However, when he facts given to me do confirm my preconceptions, then I become more entrenched in those preconceptions. (See Facts Don't Win Fights)

It's simple:
In the USA, a country with a lot of free speech (almost the only one), there is polarization.
In Germany, a country with some free speech, there is polarization.
In Turkey, a country with no free speech, there is polarization.
Maybe restricting free speech is just a lame excuse for authoritarianism....

(Ergo, I cannot find this funny.)

The point of humour is to make grim reality bearable.

[paleologos]

I find your comparisons superficial and nihilistic.
I in the US the society is polarized about everything except the use of military force abroad.
In Germany they are polarized about immigration and not even very much at that - tell me if they are polarized about anything else.
In Turkey people have had elections for decades but never true democracy.
That's a society that has yet to have it's internal reckoning.
If you cannot differentiate between these three cases you can post here but you cannot contribute.

And though humor is a good way to make bearable a disaster that has already struck, it is nothing else but irresponsible blithe when we are confronted with a disaster that is still approaching us.

[Cyclops]

Same here. Also, I find people who obsess about this topic highly suspect. They probably admire the Nazis on some level..

Its hardly a sign that German lawmakers secretly admire Nazis that they seek to guard against their resurgence. As for my own interest in WWII, its a dramatic event that affected my family, my country and my planet. My interest does not stem from admiration of the Nazi scum

Germany does have a tradition of sometimes comical over-weening regulation, but they probably have a hard time seeing the joke. I have joked about Nazis and even the holocaust myself: pretty disgusting in some ways, but its hard to grasp the enormity of such horrible events and as you say "The point of humour is to make grim reality bearable". Its easier to laugh about it from this distance.

The fact German lawmakers allow ironic use is a deviation from the stereotype of stuffy Teutonic officialdom. I am told by German friends and visitors to Germany that there's more questioning of laws since WWII (as you would expect): these days if a restaurant as a sign saying "no dogs" you are almost guaranteed to get someone turn up with their dog asking "why not?". So they are changing.

Nonetheless given Germany was nearly destroyed by the Nazi regime I find it understandable they react to the trappings of that regime. The Nazi takeover and period of rule was characterised by systematic law breaking and cynical exploitation of loopholes so a resort to rules to counter Nazism is not paradoxical.

[athanaric]

I find your comparisons superficial and nihilistic.

I find your post pompous and lacking in factual basis.

I in the US the society is polarized about everything except the use of military force abroad.

lol, have you ever heard of isolationism?

In Germany they are polarized about immigration and not even very much at that - tell me if they are polarized about anything else.

Immigration policy is an extremely polarizing subject in Germany, and there are lots of others to choose from, from Orthorexia (e.g. Veganism) to Islam to energy politics.

If you cannot differentiate between these three cases you can post here but you cannot contribute.

lol

And though humor is a good way to make bearable a disaster that has already struck, it is nothing else but irresponsible blithe when we are confronted with a disaster that is still approaching us.

You know, you can make fun of things while at the same time taking the core issue seriously.

[paleologos]

I find your post pompous and lacking in factual basis.

Thus spoke the resident hipster. I did post three links for facts, not that they would counter your confirmation bias.

lol, have you ever heard of isolationism?

How many US congresspeople support it?
The argument is about polarization.
Supporters of isolationism are a fringe.
That's not polarization.

Immigration policy is an extremely polarizing subject in Germany, and there are lots of others to choose from, from Orthorexia (e.g. Veganism) to Islam to energy politics.

Not it's not,the vast majority of Germans don't want refugees but you are welcome to correct me with facts, I'm amenable.
Veganism is not a legal issue, nor is Islam and energy politics is not nearly so polarizing as to prevent the Bundestag from reaching decisions.

You know, you can make fun of things while at the same time taking the core issue seriously.

But when society is too polarized to make decisions about how to seriously deal with the issue it's a different preposition.

[Ludicus]

May be is a topic for the Political mudpit...well,

...snip....

Copy and paste from Hitler Salute Resource | Learn About, Share and Discuss Hitler Salute ...

And am I the only one that finds the commentary on over-zealous airport baggage inspectors amusing

It's just you. August of Hanover has a violent past.Use google.

Horst Mahler to six months of imprisonment...ironically performed the Hitler salute

False, Mahler claimed to have performed the salute as a “testimonial of his worldview” (“Zeugnis seiner Weltanschauung“). Horst Mahler Sent Back To Jail

Mahler was involved in founding the Society for the Rehabilitation of Those persecuted for Refutation of the Holocaust (Verein zur Rehabilitierung der wegen Bestreitens des Holocaust Verfolgten, VRBHV) on 9 November 2003... Since 2003, Mahler has faced numerous charges in German courts...His passport was revoked by the German authorities in 2006 to prevent him attending the International Conference to Review the Global Vision of the Holocaust in Tehran, Iran.

....On 21 February 2009, Mahler was sentenced by a Munich court to six years’ imprisonment without possibility of reduction or bail. During the reading of the verdict, the judge said that Mahler had proven “not able to be re-educated” and declared that the “nationalist rattle” of and “nonsense spread” by Horst Mahler should stop. On 11 March a Potsdam court then sentenced the 73-year-old Mahler to an additional five years’ imprisonment for Holocaust denial and banalization of Nazi war crimes. Mahler was adjudged an escape risk, so the sentence was carried out immediately.

...
Now this is funny -this movie was banned in all occupied countries by the Nazis.The great dictator speech,

[athanaric]

What are you trying to say with your post, Ludicus?

Thus spoke the resident hipster. I did post three links for facts, not that they would counter your confirmation bias.

I don't even know what you're trying to argue against. My examples don't contradict your sources, or vice versa.

How many US congresspeople support it?
The argument is about polarization.
Supporters of isolationism are a fringe.
That's not polarization.

Trump ran on an isolationist platform, and I recall he won the elections. Of course, what happens afterwards is another thing entirely. Isolationism also has a long history in the US.

Not it's not,the vast majority of Germans don't want refugees but you are welcome to correct me with facts, I'm amenable.

It may be a majority, but I wouldn't call it "vast". Also, the other, more wealthy and influential, part of German society are busy trying to ostracize them. Their main representative in parliament, the AfD, is treated as a pariah by the other parties.

Veganism is not a legal issue, nor is Islam and energy politics is not nearly so polarizing as to prevent the Bundestag from reaching decisions.

That wasn't the question. You asked for polarizing issues in German society, I gave you examples.

But when society is too polarized to make decisions about how to seriously deal with the issue it's a different preposition.

I disagree.

[sumskilz]

Well, we've already seen the corrupting effect allowing this has had:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Ludicus]

What are you trying to say with your post, Ludicus?

What I said.Some examples provided in the OP hardly allow an ironic interpretation, they were politically motivated.Reread my last post.

Well, we've already seen the corrupting effect allowing this has had:

What do you mean? it was politically motivated,

Scots 'Nazi pug' owner admits 'gas the Jews' heard

Prosecutors claim ‘Nazi pug’ owner admitted ‘gas the Jews’ heard in controversial viral Youtube clip was ‘most horrible phrase he could think of’
The video contains footage of the accused stating 23 times in total the words ‘gas the Jews’ in a comparatively short period of time.
He accepts he was involved in editing and producing the footage and managed to distil it down to a short period of time.
This is not some two and a half hour production with many shards every half hour, this is a toxic distillation of what he may call the best bits of his video.
He has made very, very, sure the phrase ‘gas the Jews’ is repeated over and over and over again.
He has constructed the video and he accepts that within a short time frame the noxious phrase is uttered 23 times by him.This is an exoneration to gas the Jews, people who belong to the Jewish community.
He might just as well have said ‘murder the Jews’ that is the effect of the toxic phrase ‘gas the Jews’.He is a highly intelligent and articulate individual, we are not dealing with some callow youth who is inexperienced with what is going on in the world.
The Crown contention is that the inclusion of the dog is an attempt to muddy the waters around him making, producing and posting the video.
He says that he knows the context of the video but in a criminal court in Scotland he does not decide the context of anything, the court decides the context.

[sumskilz]

What do you mean? it was politically motivated

Are you serious?

It gets better:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Diocle]

Well, actually there's also the famous "Bellamy salute", used in the USA in the last century ..

.. isn't it cool? It looks more .. relaxed than the German version.

[athanaric]

What I said.Some examples provided in the OP hardly allow an ironic interpretation, they were politically motivated.Reread my last post.

Well... Ernst August famously is an idiot, the kind of celebrity that's best to ignore because they thrive on notoriety and controversy. Horst Mahler is a special case, and I don't know why they're keeping him in jail for ridiculous charges like making a Hitler salute. Maybe it's belated payback for his involvement with a rather famous left-wing terrorist group?
Bottom line, I'd rather the police and judicial system spend their limited energy on actual crime instead of enforcing absurd laws that only serve to demonstrate that "the Germans" still don't understand free speech.

What do you mean? it was politically motivated,

Scots 'Nazi pug' owner admits 'gas the Jews' heard

Can you really not see the inherent absurdity of the situation? Do you really believe that treatise of absurd pathos you've linked to?
If the guy (who looks like a textbook left wing anarchist) was making a political statement at all, it was about free speech. And now they've turned him into a free speech martyr. Well done.
Can I say on this forum that Scottish police (who think that moderating "hate speech" on twitter is part of their job) and judiciary are useless [porcine-related expletive]?

[Cyclops]

...
Bottom line, I'd rather the police and judicial system spend their limited energy on actual crime instead of enforcing absurd laws that only serve to demonstrate that "the Germans" still don't understand free speech....

We say "ze Germans".

So the obvious solution here is for you to get elected and change the laws (just don't occupy the Danzig corridor). If that's not an option and its really important to you to have a saluting pug I guess move to Switzerland? Free speech laws in Germany are a small matter to be worried about from my POV.

OTOH German official pedantry is amusing, there's an anecdote about a highway sign in 19th century Bavaria that read "It is permitted to travel on this road". The Poms love that sort of story "oh those silly Germans, at least they hate the French like we do hahaha pass me another little boy, what?"

[bigdaddy1204]

OTOH German official pedantry is amusing, there's an anecdote about a highway sign in 19th century Bavaria that read "It is permitted to travel on this road". The Poms love that sort of story "oh those silly Germans, at least they hate the French like we do hahaha pass me another little boy, what?"

I'm guessing by little boy you are not referring to the atomic bomb Little Boy, dropped on the Japanese city of Hiroshima on 6 August 1945 during World War II by the Boeing B-29 Superfortress Enola Gay, piloted by Colonel Paul W. Tibbets, Jr., commander of the 509th Composite Group of the United States Army Air Forces?

On the subject of non ironic Hitler references, I believe the special circumstances of Germany immediately after ww2 fully justify the ban. I'd still support the ban today. There is no place for Nazism in society, it is antithetical to life itself.

People shouldn't be allowed to go round in public waving an ISIS banner. Those ISIS dogs, oppressors of the world. The Nazi salute is the same.

[NorseThing]

Well, actually there's also the famous "Bellamy salute", used in the USA in the last century ..

.. isn't it cool? It looks more .. relaxed than the German version.

I suggest others actually read the link. This post was the most in keeping with the thread start bigdaddy1204. +rep

[Ἀπολλόδοτος Α΄ ὁ Σωτήρ]

I'd still support the ban today. There is no place for Nazism in society, it is antithetical to life itself.

People shouldn't be allowed to go round in public waving an ISIS banner. Those ISIS dogs, oppressors of the world. The Nazi salute is the same.

Ban on what? Nazi flag or salute? Sure I'm not a Nazi so I'm not against banning it, however I don't think banning those will diminish the numbers of actual Nazis. Is it illegal to display the Swastika in Germany? If so, it's ridiculous to be forbidden from displaying the Swastika, just because Nazis liked it, it's our ancestral Indo-European symbol...

I'm being ironic, or am I...

[Cyclops]

...

I'm being ironic, or am I...

Are you a Cretan? All Cretans are ψεύστης, which is ironic.