Non-Cavalry Shock Units

[Cryoshakespeare]

Hey there,

I've found in battle that most of the really cool shock units (looking at you Rompaianai) that aren't cavalry are... kind of useless. The issue is, these bad boys are too vulnerable to make an initial charge, take heavy losses trying to flank if enemy skirmishers are still up, and essentially only come into play after your cavalry have already mopped up and are ready to hammer that anvil and win. Even skirmish cavalry can do this effectively.

So, what's the dealio? Have any of you found or even fabricated (as I'm desperate to have a reason to use these guys!) a role for our favourite Shieldless Shock Sholdiers?

[wermez]

Routing enemy units in critical phase of battle is way easier with naked gauls etc. They arent supermen, after all.

[nvm]

The "frighten nearby enemy infantry" and "Inspires nearby troops" attributes is reason enough to use them in first place, not many units have that. What you could try is to have one unit of them right in the center. That's even historical, looking at their description.

[Tactics Mayers]

I usually place those units behind my main line of spearmen, chucking their javelins so that they will be wielding their melee weapons and having them attack enemy infantry from the sides.
Waay farther from behind if the enemy has missile units, the AI loves killing off melee infantry hiding behind my main line with missiles if they can do it.

[XDeath007]

I had this problem with Peltestai Makedones playing as Epeiros (I always play VH/VH). Ya, they aren't exactly light troops (7 armor), but the problem was similar. I had shock infantry that kept getting picked off by missiles before they could do anything meaningful.

I usually have 2 units of shock units per 20 stack. I find that I don't need any more than this for how I use them. I consider any unit that's high value, hard-hitting, and vulnerable to missiles shock troops.

First thing I do is position them behind the front line in the middle (flanks tend to receive more fire). They do not take part in the initial clash except for throwing their javelins into the enemy mass a bit after the initial charge so that the enemy are committed and nicely bunched up. If I'm expecting enemy javelins, I keep the shock infantry far behind enough to be out of range (you're too close if your shock troops can throw javelins!). You'll just have to accept the initial losses from anything longer ranged than javelins as placing these units too far back makes the next phase harder.

Once the initial lines are committed by both sides, my cavalry have more freedom to maneuver. Typically I send these to fight the enemy cav or, if they're weak in that regard, I go straight for their skirmishers. However, I find that more often than not the enemy manage to get a spearmen unit or two to engage my cavalry. THIS is where I find the shock troops to shine. Basically I have my shock troops follow in the general direction of my cav. Generally when my cav makes contact, the shock troops should be halfway between the cav clash and the main infantry clash while the same is true of the enemy units going to reinforce the cav clash.

Here I have a few options with the shock infantry but the decision must be made quickly as the enemy will have diverted some of their missiles from your cav to approaching shock infantry at this point.
A: Keep running to cav clash and reinforce (usually done if I'm losing the cav clash and I NEED to win this specific part of the field)
B: Engage the enemy spear reinforcements (if the cav don't need help)
C: Make a dash for the remaining skirmishers (if my cav already took out some or if there aren't that many to begin with)
D: Turn and engage the main enemy line in the back (least common as I find most of the time my cav does this one way or another)

This is when I had an awesome EB moment and I realized that I'm using these units historically. I believe Alexander had light(ish) infantry follow his initial cavalry on the flanks for similar reasons. Long story short, I consider shock troops as elite light infantry and have them support my cav units. Shock troops, despite the name, are used in support of the real hammer of my army which is my cavalry.

[Cryoshakespeare]

Some great responses here, XDeath007 in particular that's an excellent summary of their tactical role.

You're right nvm, those two attributes do justify the Rompaianai. I guess a part of me secretly longs for the days of EB I, where max experience Drapanai almost hearkened back to the base RTW's mass Berserker armies. I've found unit experience does very little on melee troops, it affects ranged accuracy and all that nicely, but I would say a 3 gold chevron melee unit is only about 10% better than a fresh one.

I'll keep experimenting though.

[QuintusSertorius]

Also note, the reason you're able to employ varying tactics is due to the speed of kills. All those people complaining battles are "too slow" are missing out on the fact that maneuver is only possible because fights aren't over a minute after contact.

[Rad]

Also note, the reason you're able to employ varying tactics is due to the speed of kills. All those people complaining battles are "too slow" are missing out on the fact that maneuver is only possible because fights aren't over a minute after contact.

This is why I campaign for even slower battles.

[XDeath007]

This is why I campaign for even slower battles.

Slower battles, greater penalties for being tired, and slightly faster stamina regeneration would really make battles feel a lot more tactical.

[QuintusSertorius]

This is why I campaign for even slower battles.

Unfortunately, CA in their infinite wisdom tied unit cohesion to kill rates. We can't drop it any lower without an unacceptable hit on cohesion.

[Rad]

Unfortunately, CA in their infinite wisdom tied unit cohesion to kill rates. We can't drop it any lower without an unacceptable hit on cohesion.

So, formations turn into blobs?
Can it be remedied by tweaking armor or something?

[QuintusSertorius]

So, formations turn into blobs?
Can it be remedied by tweaking armor or something?

Yes, formations turn into blobs, and there's nothing you can do about it. CA chose to link two completely unrelated things, and you can't compensate for it.

[Floren d'Asteneuz]

Also note, the reason you're able to employ varying tactics is due to the speed of kills. All those people complaining battles are "too slow" are missing out on the fact that maneuver is only possible because fights aren't over a minute after contact.

I think the main complain then was about that very light units (archers etc) could hold a shock infantry for a long time with only a knife while their enemies had a spear, a shield, and armour and so forth.

I think it has been fixed since.

[Rad]

I think the main complain then was about that very light units (archers etc) could hold a shock infantry for a long time with only a knife while their enemies had a spear, a shield, and armour and so forth.

I think it has been fixed since.

Never saw anything like that. Elites behave as they should. Light units do have a decent chance of survival against other infatry because of their low morale (good job eb team) - if they're losing, they run away. Simple as that.

[Floren d'Asteneuz]

Never saw anything like that. Elites behave as they should. Light units do have a decent chance of survival against other infatry because of their low morale (good job eb team) - if they're losing, they run away. Simple as that.

It happened a lot at the beginning. Slingers and archers were holding the line against hoplites and thureophoroi.

It was enough to hold a street in a city invasion and of course, when morale doesn't count (in city control center as a defender for instance) they just were incredibly solid for their price.

This specific situation is still a bit problematic but nothing like the first years of ebII.

[Tactics Mayers]

Aren't shock units historically placed on the front lines charging towards the main enemy lines? The fact that I need units of crazed naked berserkers/guys wielding lethal falxes needing to be hiding behind spearmen a bit annoying. Of course, if simply ordered them to charge the main enemy lines, they will get whittled to death by missiles and they will have pause for a second to change their missile atk into a melee attack.

Oh goodness, I miss playing EB1 and simply having a mass barbarian infantry charge instantly routing an entire enemy force at once.

[Rad]

Aren't shock units historically placed on the front lines charging towards the main enemy lines?

Not in front of well ordered, fresh and motivated enemies, they wouldn't be

Historically, there were troops who had the mission to make a breach in the enemy's defense, no matter the cost. However, I (currently) can't think of an example that fits EB's time frame. Even the Gaesatae aren't exactly crazy,

[Rad]

Darn.

[Cryoshakespeare]

Oh man, I just wanted to mention a lovely little exploit that I may not feel so guilty in using as I should. If you set the rally point of an allied city government outside of the settlement, any client ruler you create there will be spawned as a simple general. The thing is, in the case of the Greek general (say as the Getai that you can get from Histria), those guys have (I kid you not) 11 armour, 11 defensive skill, and 6 shield (might be 5). The real killer however is that they reinforce their regiment automatically if damaged, like any family member... which just makes these guys incredible to have as elites.

What's interesting is that this also makes me feel better about using fewer elites, as I'm less worried about throwing them into a battle where they might take some losses (as replacing those losses is usually so much more difficult than your regular regiments). To that end, I may consider making my own personal little submod that changes the unit types of a few of these generals (say changing the Thracian general to be Rompaianai ). I'll post it in the submod forum, but I just thought I'd mention the idea to anyone here who has been wanting to use elites but finds their current presence in the mod equally as cumbersome as awesome.

[QuintusSertorius]

Oh man, I just wanted to mention a lovely little exploit that I may not feel so guilty in using as I should. If you set the rally point of an allied city government outside of the settlement, any client ruler you create there will be spawned as a simple general. The thing is, in the case of the Greek general (say as the Getai that you can get from Histria), those guys have (I kid you not) 11 armour, 11 defensive skill, and 6 shield (might be 5). The real killer however is that they reinforce their regiment automatically if damaged, like any family member... which just makes these guys incredible to have as elites.

What's interesting is that this also makes me feel better about using fewer elites, as I'm less worried about throwing them into a battle where they might take some losses (as replacing those losses is usually so much more difficult than your regular regiments). To that end, I may consider making my own personal little submod that changes the unit types of a few of these generals (say changing the Thracian general to be Rompaianai ). I'll post it in the submod forum, but I just thought I'd mention the idea to anyone here who has been wanting to use elites but finds their current presence in the mod equally as cumbersome as awesome.

That is interesting indeed. Given the glacially slow refresh of Client Rulers (or else the disruption of having to destroy a government and start again), it's not exactly a game-breaking exploit.