How to change armour values from armour upgrades?

[Dilion]

So im mocking round with SS, changing alot of units and stats making the mod more like how i want it. However im currently giving different armour upgrades to different units. and i have the list of armour type to value, but how would i go about changing the armour value?

Below here is SS armour type to armour value all data collected from : http://www.stainless-steel-mod.com/RR_RC_Guide_2.html

--------------------- Leather Tanner ---------------------------------------
Leather 2
Gambeson 2
Leather Lamellar 3
--------------------- BlackSmith -------------------------------------------
Light Brigandine 4
Light Lamellar/Scale 5
Partial Light Mail 4
Light Mail 4
--------------------- Armourer ---------------------------------------------
Buff Coat 5
Lamellar/Scale 7
Partial Heavy Mail 6
Heavy Mail 6
Brigandine 6
--------------------- Heavy Armourer ---------------------------------------
Splint, Coat of Plates 8
Heavy Lamellar/Scale 9
Heavy Brigandine 8
Partial Plate 11
Breastplate 7
--------------------- Master Armourer --------------------------------------
Heavy Splint 10
Late Lamellar 11
Late Brigandine 10
Full Plate 13
Improved Metallurgy +2
--------------------- Armourer Foundry -------------------------------------
Gothic Plate 15
Renaissance Half Plate 9
Advanced Metallurgy +2
Renaissance 3Q Plate 11
Greater Armor Thickness +2

Now how would i for example go about changing the value for upgrading a unit to Gothic Plate? - Now it gives 15 armour, but lets say i wanted it to give 20. How can i change that? - I have been digging around in the files for a few hours now, and found nothing.

[Gigantus]

If memory serves it doesn't matter what you call each individual level. You can have three upgrades and as far as I know each upgrade has either a fixed percentage increase on the base value or fixed value increase.

Run some simple test using different values in the unit's armour_ug_levels entry (EDU) and then upgrade and compare values. First value is the default value followed by the values assigned to each further upgrade listed (can be the same model) in armour_ug_models

[Titus le Chmakus]

Euh ? It is not 1 point per upgrade ? You mean you can set the increase ?

[Dilion]

Above is the actual armour value a unit will receive from a certain upgrade. Lets say you had peasants, with 0 armour. If you game them leather their armour value would then be 2. *tool tip would show one, this a old old discussion tho* But their actual value will be 2 armour. Now my question is *incase i didnt make it clear. Poor English might be to blame* - That i want to change the armour value of different armour upgrades, for example i want to make gothic armour 20 in value instead of its current 15.

Euh ? It is not 1 point per upgrade ? You mean you can set the increase ?

Its not 1point per upgrade not at all, Above is the table the numbers being each kind of armour, and its actual value you give a unit upgrading to it. - Feudal knights with Heavy Mail as normal unupgraded armour will have 6 armour. If you then upgrade to Partial Plate their armour will jump all the way up to 11. Tooltip will only show them as having 7 armour tho.

[Gigantus]

If you then upgrade to Partial Plate their armour will jump all the way up to 11. Tooltip will only show them as having 7 armour tho.

How do you check whether it is actually 11?

[Dilion]

People have already done extensive testing with the armour values, etc. And from the *considerbly smaller* tests i did myself, i confirm that the armour values.
Anyway all that dosnt really matter, my question is still. Can i change the armour values. Or is it hard coded, im still unable to find any file that holds any armour value data, but as far as i can see "Real Combat / Real Recruitment" a mod that SS uses, have added in more types of armour compared to Vanilla, so surely there should be a way to change said values.

[Gigantus]

I don't doubt that it has been tested - I just want to know how you determine a value like that, seeing that it isn't displayed correctly in game by the looks of it. That would enable me to do similar tests myself.

[Titus le Chmakus]

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...-Work-Properly

And this does not answer the question, which file does determine the armour values for each smith level ?

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...stat_armour_ex

Its not 1point per upgrade not at all, Above is the table the numbers being each kind of armour, and its actual value you give a unit upgrading to it. - Feudal knights with Heavy Mail as normal unupgraded armour will have 6 armour. If you then upgrade to Partial Plate their armour will jump all the way up to 11. Tooltip will only show them as having 7 armour tho.

How do you code that in the EDU ?

armour_ug_levels 6, 11 ?

[Dilion]

Okay I'll give an example here.

I have a unit of Slav Mercenaries with the following armour and allowed upgrades.
armour_ug_levels 1, 3, 6, 10

They start with the first armour type "1" which is "Leather" giving them a starting armour value of "2"
First upgrade is the then armour type "3" which is "Leather Lamellar" this type of armour gives the value of "3" *shown value in this case will be 3 aswell, with a bronze shield icon*
Next upgrade is armour type "6" which is "Partial Light Mail" giving them the armour value of "4" *Shown value will in this case also be 4, with a silver shield*
Last upgrade is armour type "10" which is "Partial Heavy Mail" giving them the armour value of "6" *Shown value will now only be 5, with a gold shield. But infact the real value is 6*

Its usually not too bad on lower tier units, but again feudal knights is a big annoence for me, as they jump from armour type "11" with "6" armour value - to type "16" with "11" value - So a feudal knight with a bronze shield has a crazy high armour value, and if you dont think about that. you might waste units, or arrows trying to bring down a unit that you thought only had 7 armour. When infact its 11.

[Titus le Chmakus]

Sorry to bother you with that but I really want to make sure I got you well. Does this apply to all mods or only SS because of unique coding ?

If I code a unit to have armour_ug_levels 3, 10, 15, 23, it means the unit will start with Leather Lamellar (3 armour points), then 1st upgrade is Partial Heavy mail (6 armour points), second upgrade is Heavy Brigandine (8 armour points) and third upgrade is Gothic Plate (15 armour points) ?

The "smith needed" from the SS table of first post is just here to tell the game at what stage the upgrade becomes available ?

So what about the

{EMT_ARMOUR_LEVEL_0}
{EMT_ARMOUR_LEVEL_1}
{EMT_ARMOUR_LEVEL_2}
{EMT_ARMOUR_LEVEL_3}
{EMT_ARMOUR_LEVEL_4}
{EMT_ARMOUR_LEVEL_5}
{EMT_ARMOUR_LEVEL_6}

in expanded.txt (stored in data\text)

And what about "Agility defense bonus" ? What is this ?

[Dilion]

Sorry to bother you with that but I really want to make sure I got you well. Does this apply to all mods or only SS because of unique coding ?

If I code a unit to have armour_ug_levels 3, 10, 15, 23, it means the unit will start with Leather Lamellar (3 armour points), then 1st upgrade is Partial Heavy mail (6 armour points), second upgrade is Heavy Brigandine (8 armour points) and third upgrade is Gothic Plate (15 armour points) ?

The "smith needed" from the SS table of first post is just here to tell the game at what stage the upgrade becomes available ?

Your correct, that is indeed the way the game works. Not just for SS, vanilla aswell. However SS has added in more armour types, as far as i can understand. So my first question was, if there was added new types, then somewhere theres a file where said types are given a ingame armour value. Which i have still not found.

So what about the

{EMT_ARMOUR_LEVEL_0}
{EMT_ARMOUR_LEVEL_1}
{EMT_ARMOUR_LEVEL_2}
{EMT_ARMOUR_LEVEL_3}
{EMT_ARMOUR_LEVEL_4}
{EMT_ARMOUR_LEVEL_5}
{EMT_ARMOUR_LEVEL_6}

in expanded.txt (stored in data\text)

And what about "Agility defense bonus" ? What is this ?

Honestly im not sure what your asking here. However what you find in expanded.txt is only the name of said upgrade. Shown then ingame, on unit cards say *Next armour upgrade - xxxx* or under the black smith saying *Unlocks armour upgrade x and y*

Like lets take SS expanded it has the lines

{EMT_ARMOUR_LEVEL_1}Leather
{EMT_ARMOUR_LEVEL_2}Padded
{EMT_ARMOUR_LEVEL_3}Leather Lamellar

These are all the upgrades from level 1 metalsmith, and merely the name of them. In the export_descr_buildings the smithy is given the armour upgrade they allow, which then takes from the expanded.txt file the name of said upgrade. If you wanted to change the name of padded armour to something else like *Dragon scales* then all you needed to do is write that instead of padded in the expanded file. And it would change ingame. The effect of the amour would not, it would still be a 2 amour upgrade.


As for the agility defense bonus. I have no clue how that works, how its implemented. But i assume the way to find that out, would be to find the file, where armour types are given their values.
I would suspect that the amours with agility defence bonus would just be something like +1 melee defence aswell as the armour value. Making a unit better at not taking hits in melee.

[Titus le Chmakus]

Your correct, that is indeed the way the game works. Not just for SS, vanilla aswell. However SS has added in more armour types, as far as i can understand. So my first question was, if there was added new types, then somewhere theres a file where said types are given a ingame armour value. Which i have still not found.

Thanks mate ! Are you sure SS has added armour types ?

And what about "Agility defense bonus" ? What is this ?

It is in the same table as the armour values, on the right side. Is this bonus already added in the stat given ?

In the end, I would like to know how is the armour calculated ? I mean is there a link between the table and the EDU coding ? What if you give an armour value in the EDU that does not match with the armour_ug_level ?

formation        1.2, 2.4, 1.2, 2.4, 6, square
stat_health      1, 0
stat_pri         9, 2, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_simple, piercing, spear, 25, 1 ;spear+1 7 str 2
;stat_pri_ex      0, 0, 0
stat_pri_attr    spear
stat_sec         0, 0, no, 0, 0, no, melee_simple, blunt, none, 25, 1
;stat_sec_ex      0, 0, 0
stat_sec_attr    no
stat_pri_armour  22, 5, 2, leather 
;stat_armour_ex   7, 8, 0, 0, 5, 4, 4, metal
stat_sec_armour  0, 0, flesh
stat_heat        2
stat_ground      -2, 0, -1, 0
stat_mental      9, normal, trained
stat_charge_dist 20
stat_fire_delay  0
stat_food        60, 300
stat_cost        9, 500, 1000, 250, 250, 500, 1, 1
armour_ug_levels 4
armour_ug_models Pavise_Spearmen
ownership        portugal
;unit_info        13, 0, 32

What will the game consider if you code the red values ?

[Dilion]

Sorry slow response, But i do believe that if you manually put a armour value higher than the armour type they have. Then they get the given value, as in your case 22. - But i would too suspect that if you let them upgrade to say Leather armour, then it would be a nerf to their armour. However i havent done the testing on this specificly.

But in the end, im not master at this, but would love to know if i could change the value of different armour types, but i suspect they are all hard coded. And your right maybe SS dosnt add more armour types, but instead takes the types from all the different Kingdoms campaigns and use them all in SS main campaign.

[Titus le Chmakus]

Ok so you would avise to code the stat_pri_armour and armour_ug_levels to the same value, to avoid any problems !

And if I want to upgrade to certain values, that is possible ? I mean I can code the armour_ug_levels to 4, 8 and 14 without any problems ? This also means that the smith level would have to be 2, 3 and 4 to have access to these upgrades ?

[Dilion]

Ok so you would avise to code the stat_pri_armour and armour_ug_levels to the same value, to avoid any problems !

And if I want to upgrade to certain values, that is possible ? I mean I can code the armour_ug_levels to 4, 8 and 14 without any problems ? This also means that the smith level would have to be 2, 3 and 4 to have access to these upgrades ?

Yes that is correct.

[Dilion]

I have now in my own modding changed the description on units, so i myself with a quick glance can tell what a units acctural armour level is.
Heres a picture of what spear militias look like.

https://imgur.com/a/Vtq3H?

As you can see with bronze upgrade *Tier 1 armour* - The unit is wearing Gamberson, unit stat is still 1 ingame due to the fault of the game. But the actual value is 2. So for ease of use for myself, to identify how tough a unit is. I have started to edit the description to reflect what amour they are using. With the first *Unarmoured* in this case, being what armour they start with, and each new type of armour below is the next Tier upgrade. - I also added on the end, the armour value, so i can identify that aswell.

[Titus le Chmakus]

Ok thanks mate !

[Dilion]

Id just revive this thread as i have come to a new conclusion and think i have with this thread only spead misinformation. It would appear that Giga is right, its either a set value increase for armour upgrades on units or a procentage.
I havent done the large amount of testing needed yet, only just started on it. But if you take a unit with not armour value *peasants* and give them Gothic Plate upgrade in the EDU and ingame, then they will take damage and act just the same as if they had leather armour upgrade. Eluding to the fact that its a set value no matter what armour it is, the upgrade names are merely that just a name for it.

I have a hyposetise that if the unit has no base armour then their upgrade will be a +1, if they have armour it will be something else. Some people i read somewhere said +2 for all upgrades but my tests so far dont show this. A peasent unit with no armour after 6 tests running at a peasant archer unit, until reach of melee. Took 150 losses *from a 200 unit* - With armour value set to 2 in EDU they took *131 losses* and with armour set at 0, but armour upgrade applied *bronze shield, set to leather armour in the EDU* they took *142 losses* so more losses than if they had value of 2, hence hinting that leather armour on peasents indeed is just +1.

Seeing people report it not being 1+ on other higher tier units with a higher base value, i think its only a +1 if the unit has no armour at all, after that it might be +1 + X% of base value a upgrade applies.

Im sorry i know im not great at english, and im extemely poor at sharing my thoughts. But hopefully this will show that its more advanced then i above said.
If what i said above with armours having a fixed value was right then giving peasants gothic plate, should limit their losses immensely, however they took as many losses as with leather armour.

[Titus le Chmakus]

Yeah, that is understandable ! Giving values is the easiest to understand, so what you did helps a lot.

Will you do further testing for higher armours ? I'd be interested !

[Dilion]

I am doing testings right now yes. Its laborious and im honestly not sure of the out comes yet.

Test done Peasant archers fire 5 vollies at AI controlled advancing peasants on Grassy plains.

Peasant archers have 2 range damage.

Peasants given base armour value of 10 in EDU. Heres the out come of 6 tests, with 5 vollies.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

T1: 36 kills
T2: 26
T3: 37
T4: 37
T5: 32
T6: 30
= 33 kills on average

Same test carried out with unit given one armour upgrade *Bronze shield* - Set armour upgrade in the EDU is Gamberson from Stainless steel 6.4 - Do not know if this is important or not, but its something to note so far.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

17 kills
21
24
21
19
21
= 20,5

Same test with level 2 armour upgrade *silver shield* - set to light mail in the EDU. again as before just to note, do not know if that matters at all.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

6
10
8
9
12
6
= 8,5

Same test with level 3 armour upgrade *Gold shield* - set to heavy mail in the EDU.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

3
5
4
6
3
5
= 4,3

- Now the test im going to make is, giving the peasents base armour value of 12, 14, 16, 18 and testing to see if any of these tests will yield one of the results as the above armour upgrades do. To figure out how much an upgrade does provide.
My questions are
-Does it apply a fixed value?
-If yes, is the value fixed for the upgrade number aka - Upgrade 1 = +2 - Upgrade 2 = +4 - Upgrade 3 = +8? or something along those lines.
-Or is it a fixed value for just upgrading so bronze shield will give +2 to base value, and silver shield will give +2 on top of that.

If its not a fixed value, is it then percentage increase based of base armour value?
- Again is the percentage linked to the upgrade number?
- Or is it a fixed increase - +50% - +50% + 50%

I'd love if you have more questions wanting to get answered, im kinda just winging it so far, making up stuff and questions as i go along.