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Thread: New Historical total war era - Total War: Three Kingdoms!

  1. #161
    Papay's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: New Historical total war era - Total War: Three Kingdoms!

    Verry keen on this. I would love to see a historical game with some small supernatural elements. If they combine both history and fantasy then it would be awesome. i also expect the campaign map to be glorious since China has very interesting geographical landscape

  2. #162
    Roma_Victrix's Avatar Gatorade, is it in you?
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    Default Re: New Historical total war era - Total War: Three Kingdoms!

    Quote Originally Posted by Yue Fei View Post
    Yes, I was talking about the provincial forces. During the reign of Guangwu they were still quite formidable, but he took steps to reducing their effectiveness for worry that commoners knowing military matters. But indeed, the Northern Army, Liang troops, and on the frontiers were professional veterans who were well skilled.
    Cool. Glad to see we are in agreement!

    Quote Originally Posted by zachman1201 View Post
    Thanks for the feedback, I'll have to to do more research next time. I wasn't trying to steer anyone towards an uneducated direction, I really had little knowledge of the historical background revolving around the Three Kingdoms of China. But thank you, I wouldn't learn from my missteps if someone wouldn't point them out.

    Regards! =)
    No problem. You're welcome! Hopefully you will be able to secure the scholarly sources you need to make a well-researched video next time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Oda Nobunaga View Post
    While that is true the Qiang people did not have a strong power base in Liang province. They were however a nuisance whenever they rebelled or allied with a rebellious military commander. The Xiongnu were the only ones that really had a strong presence within China itself since they had effectively been in control of Bing province for a century as Han vassals. When the Jin state nearly collapse it was the Xiongnu who temporarily filled the power vacuum in the west and created the state of Han Zhao, at this point many of the Xiongnu being sinicized.

    The Di moved in from Liang province and established Former Qin and Later Liang. The Wuhuan played a role in the Three Kingdoms period but were defeated by Cao Cao. Later they were absorbed by the Khitan peoples of the steppe. The Jie people which were supposed to have come from the Yuezhi people in the west established the state of Later Zhao. The Xianbei were the most successful as they established six kingdoms starting with Former Yan in the east. Eventually they created the powerful Wei Empire under the Tuoba clan, a Xianbei family which had sinicized.

    In the far south the state of Eastern Wu sent expeditions and regained control of the Vietnam area. An expedition near the end of Sun Quan's reign encountered a place called "Funan" which was a tribal confederacy of sorts in what is modern day Cambodia. They paid tribute and sent envoys to Sun Quan. According to records they had their own tribal religions but also practiced Hinduism, later adopting Buddhism and even learning to write in Sanskrit by the 4th century.
    Why must you contradict me, Oda?

    Cool explanation of the neighboring peoples at the time, though. You've convinced me about the Xiongnu! I think it would be critical to include the Xiongnu, Xianbei, Wuhuan, and Qiang peoples in the north, but the game really has to include northern Vietnam and, if they go that far, why not Champa in southern Vietnam? Knowing CA this is the sort of thing they'll do with a DLC.

  3. #163
    Lord Oda Nobunaga's Avatar 大信皇帝
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    Default Re: New Historical total war era - Total War: Three Kingdoms!

    Finally on the topic of Japanese anime... . I have both watched and read Souten Kouro. The anime is okay but extremely over the top, in a lot of ways it is in line with the Sanguoyanyi but a more modern take. The manga is a bit better but is also very over the top in its portrayals (not as much as the anime). It is kind of like a Chinese Game of Thrones in that respect. Souten Kouro (aka Path of the Blue Sky: Beyond the Heavens) is a different take on the Three Kingdoms period with Cao Cao as an amoral protagonist and Liu Bei as the moralizing villain. There are dragons, demons, Xu Chu hitting the moon with an arrow, Lu Bu single handedly killing what appears to be thousands of men. Though a lot of its material is actually supposed to be thematic. The dynamic between Cao Cao and Zhuge Liang for example is that of Yin and Yang. Where as Cao Cao is an active force and uses his power as chancellor for his own ends, Zhuge Liang takes a back seat and uses his power as chancellor to serve Liu Bei. They also equate Dong Zhuo with Cao Cao but where as Dong Zhuo is capable of extreme brutality is seemingly for the sake of bloodsport Cao Cao's use of killing is for a purpose. At the end of the manga it is revealed that Cao Cao is extraordinary, that is to say that he is beyond human. Where as some despise him and others worship him his role within history is somewhere in between, he did not conquer China but he was not defeated either. Another theme is the perception of reality as well as morality which is explained through the concept of Heaven, Earth and Man or the Blue Heaven of the Han falling to the Yellow Heaven of the Turbans.

    One of the best quotes from Souten Kouro: Beyond the Heavens which ties into this concept: "The Empire trembles with fear and though the Han has done well to escape chaos for four hundreds years until now, at the same time that means it has been smothering countless sleeping dragons. If the Han falls then these dragons shall appear across the land. For a time these sleeping dragons will unleash into the Blue Heaven, then once again they must return into the earth."
    As Cao Cao himself predicts early on he himself is not the saviour who will unite Earth and Man by using the Way of Heaven. He is merely another of these dragons who has been unleashed unto the Earth by the collapse of the Han Dynasty. In terms of morality the title says it clearly "Path of the Blue Heaven (reality): Beyond the Heavens (beyond the concept of good and evil). As he says to Dong Zhuo in chapter 56 "Dialogue of Flames", though Dong Zhuo is powerful and has capably done away with the eunuchs and nepotism, ultimately he will lose Heaven's favour for his unnecessary bloodshed and ruthlessness and thereby lose the support of Man. Eventually when that comes to pass he will no longer control the Earth.

    Here are some panels from the incredibly badass political discourse in "Dialogue of Flames"
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 















    "Famous general without peer in any age, most superior in valor and inspired by the Way of Heaven; since the provinces are now subject to your will it is certain that you will increasingly mount in victory." - Ōgimachi-tennō

  4. #164

    Default Re: New Historical total war era - Total War: Three Kingdoms!

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Oda Nobunaga View Post
    While that is true the Qiang people did not have a strong power base in Liang province. They were however a nuisance whenever they rebelled or allied with a rebellious military commander. The Xiongnu were the only ones that really had a strong presence within China itself since they had effectively been in control of Bing province for a century as Han vassals. When the Jin state nearly collapse it was the Xiongnu who temporarily filled the power vacuum in the west and created the state of Han Zhao, at this point many of the Xiongnu being sinicized.
    Yufuluo, the shanyu of the Southern Xiongnu, was part of the coalition to defeat Dong Zhuo, staying in Henei with Yuan Shao (from what I've read from wiki haha).


  5. #165
    Lord Oda Nobunaga's Avatar 大信皇帝
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    Default Re: New Historical total war era - Total War: Three Kingdoms!

    Yes that is true. After that Yufuluo joined the Heishan Bandits and later joined Yuan Shu. Yufuluo being the usurped ruler of the Xiongnu, him and his followers raided and then took part in these campaigns.

    "Famous general without peer in any age, most superior in valor and inspired by the Way of Heaven; since the provinces are now subject to your will it is certain that you will increasingly mount in victory." - Ōgimachi-tennō

  6. #166

    Default Re: New Historical total war era - Total War: Three Kingdoms!

    Quote Originally Posted by Roma_Victrix View Post
    Cool explanation of the neighboring peoples at the time, though. You've convinced me about the Xiongnu! I think it would be critical to include the Xiongnu, Xianbei, Wuhuan, and Qiang peoples in the north, but the game really has to include northern Vietnam and, if they go that far, why not Champa in southern Vietnam? Knowing CA this is the sort of thing they'll do with a DLC.
    Personally, I think the southern border should extend all the way to the Mekong. The Nanyue (aka the Viet) are certainly going to be in the game, as they played a similar role to Eastern Wu as the northern nomads played to Cao Wei, being both a source of instability and a manpower supply. I would wager a guess that Jiaozhi province itself might be a playable faction under Shi Xie, as it would certainly have a unique roster and position.

    If the map extends all the way to the Mekong though, we can get the recently formed kingdom of Champa in the central highlands of Vietnam and the ever important trade power of Funan. There are a lot of tribal peoples (Lao, Thai, Khmer) to the east that could be both a problem and a possible opportunity to southeastern factions. It opens up a viable route of expansion and development when southern factions aren't able to expand north for whatever reason, and it's not too rationalize a military expedition down there to capture resources and trade ports. It's definitely easier and more rewarding than invading Tibet or Outer Mongolia.

  7. #167

    Default Re: New Historical total war era - Total War: Three Kingdoms!

    it's going to be interesting
    i really want to know how they'll handle the influential characters in the era
    since not only the warriors are well known but also the domestic officer

    if ca use dong zhuo in the trailer that means they'll most likely to start in the early era during the yellow turban rebellion

  8. #168

    Default Re: New Historical total war era - Total War: Three Kingdoms!

    Quote Originally Posted by ikyu828 View Post
    it's going to be interesting
    i really want to know how they'll handle the influential characters in the era
    since not only the warriors are well known but also the domestic officer

    if ca use dong zhuo in the trailer that means they'll most likely to start in the early era during the yellow turban rebellion
    Game starts in 190. One of the only pieces of hard information we have right now. So its the time of the anti Dong Zhuo coalition.
    Last edited by zoner16; January 13, 2018 at 02:31 AM.

  9. #169

    Default Re: New Historical total war era - Total War: Three Kingdoms!

    Quote Originally Posted by NostalgiaFan View Post
    I do agree with others that I hope the actual game will not feel like a Warhammer reskin and that the hero's abilites will be toned down and not take center stage over the historical battles.


    This too. I liked what I heard in the trailer but I really hope they are not again using beddow because that guy only ever makes one or two memorable battle themes. I especially would not have any faith in him making a soundtrack with an Asian theme and with TOB already on the way I see no reason why they would overwork him.

    Hopefully they get Dyck back or at least someone new to finally start giving soundtracks more memorable then the past titles made after Shogun 2.
    Hey maybe we'll get Hanz Zimmer.

    I mean if we're going to fantasize about things that will never happen...

  10. #170

    Default Re: New Historical total war era - Total War: Three Kingdoms!

    Quote Originally Posted by thesmoosh View Post
    Hey maybe we'll get Hanz Zimmer.

    I mean if we're going to fantasize about things that will never happen...
    Nice to know you don't read the previous posts in the thread before posting your own comment since we already got word from Dyck himself that he is not doing the soundtrack. And since when is it a fantasy just to hope CA gets someone else to do the soundtrack? it's not like they need to spend thousands of dollars just to hire a new guy it's just a soundtrack for god's sake.

  11. #171

    Default Re: New Historical total war era - Total War: Three Kingdoms!

    Speaking of Three Kingdoms anime, there's was actually a really great one made that ran from 1992 to 1994 as three OVAs 2 hours each that goes through the entire history. The first video was localized into English as "Great Conquest: Romance of the Three Kingdoms" narrated by Pat Morita. Unfortunately the other two weren't localized, but you can find all three on YouTube in Japanese and in HD. Just copy and paste "三国志 第一部 英雄たちの夜明け(1992)" into the YouTube search and it'll be the first one that shows up. The one from '93 and '94 are in the related videos on the side. If you already know the story from the novel, it's easy to follow along (there's a few instances where it diverges, like making Guan Yu's daughter into as great a warrior as he was). The animation is top notch and the music is spectacular.

    Quote Originally Posted by LestaT View Post
    Can anyone recommend me a good translated version of both Record amd Romance? The last time I read Romance was probably many, many decades ago and not really a full version (more like children's version).
    Sorry, didn't notice your post before. You can read Sanguo Yanyi (Romance) here: http://www.eze33.com/war/sanguo/sanguo.htm with the older C.H. Brewitt Taylor translation if you want to read it online. If you want a book version, I'd recommend the Moss Roberts translation which you should easily be able to find on amazon.

    For Sanguo Zhi, there's not been a full written translation. Most of what's done is by amateur historians, so there might be some issues in translation. However, you can find some biographies in these places:

    https://sites.google.com/site/threekingdomshistory/home (This is my site, it has some biographies that were hosted on the old forum known as 3kingdoms.net which no longer exists. In the "Useful Links" section on the sidebar, you can find links to an archive of a website called "Empire Divided" which has some biographies there, and a link to all of the Sanguo Zhi biographies on the Chinese wiki)
    http://xuesanguo.tumblr.com/ (This is a recent project, though for 2018 it seems that there will be a low frequency of updates, as they're working on trying to get a book publication of selected biographies. The translations here are very well done)
    http://kongming.net/novel/bios/?kingdom=All (Click on the hyperlink there that says "Sanguozhi (Historical)" under the "Biographies (by type)" heading. Some of these are rather old translations, and occasionally there might be some errors but otherwise they're very good).

    Also, this thread http://the-scholars.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=22715 on The Scholars of Shen Zhou forum has a compilation outlining most of the biographies that have been translated.
    http://the-scholars.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=23272 (This thread has some links to Hou Han Shu biographies of some individuals who took part in the Yellow Turban Rebellion and through Dong Zhuo's rise, but died before the Three Kingdoms period proper, and there's also a couple Jin Shu biographies of later Three Kingdoms individuals who later served the unifying Jin dynasty)

    There's some other compilations on SoSZ, but you'll have to search for them.


    Additionally you'd probably also like the Zhizi Tongjian, which Dr. Rafe de Crespigny partially translated. I linked his page earlier in the thread, but for ease you can find it here: https://openresearch-repository.anu....048/index.html (He translated chapters 54-69, each contained in "Emperor Huan and Emperor Ling" and "To Establish Peace" volume 1 and 2 respectively)

    Hope this helps.
    Last edited by Yue Fei; January 12, 2018 at 11:52 PM.
    "The only thing I'm afraid of is fear." Sir Arthur Wellesley, 1st Duke of Wellington.

  12. #172

    Default Re: New Historical total war era - Total War: Three Kingdoms!

    As someone who has actually enjoyed Dynasty Warriors for the arcade hack 'n' slash they are and as a result is also familiar with the characters and the main events, I would normally be excited for this announcement. But being also familiar with CA's and Sega's bs and extremely anti-customer business practises that accompany every TW release since Empire, I can't really be excited about a TW announcement anymore. When you add all this emphasis to characters and heroes and the warhammer 2's direction with limited sandbox and forced narrative in the mix, you really have a recipe for disaster.

    And one last thing: everything they've revealed so far points heavily towards the romance of the three kingdoms, which is a fantasy book as it includes magic. So I naturally have two questions: 1) if they're really going for the romance version, why are they advertising this as a historical title? It's fantasy. And 2) if they aren't going for the romance version but for the historical one, why on earth are they advertising it with scenes from the fantasy version? Are they trolling us?

    Knowing CA and judging by the trailer and their FAQ page I predict they're going for the fantasy version, but they'll just remove the obvious magic so they can advertise and sell it as a historical title. In reality that would be a historical fiction title, not a historical one, but who cares, right? Badass duels! Yeah!

    And to think this is the first time ever that they actually hired a historian to help them... Just lol

  13. #173

    Default Re: New Historical total war era - Total War: Three Kingdoms!

    I thought they hired Stephen Turnbull to help them with Shogun 2. Not that he's a historian of the calibre of say someone like Karl Friday, but he still is one.
    "The only thing I'm afraid of is fear." Sir Arthur Wellesley, 1st Duke of Wellington.

  14. #174

    Default Re: New Historical total war era - Total War: Three Kingdoms!

    Quote Originally Posted by zoner16 View Post
    Game starts in 190. One of the only pieces of hard information we have right now. So its the time of the anti Dong Zhou coalition.
    i see
    hopefully ca will also add different scenario like in rotk series
    so we don't always start in the early era of 3 kingdoms
    Last edited by ikyu828; January 13, 2018 at 03:07 AM.

  15. #175

    Default Re: New Historical total war era - Total War: Three Kingdoms!

    I'm actually very interested to play the game with Chinese voiceovers, not sure if there's an option to have the game in english with chinese VO
    「戦場廻り、運命決まり、生死しらない」

  16. #176

    Default Re: New Historical total war era - Total War: Three Kingdoms!

    I wish to see some mechanics in regards with capturing generals - like ransoming them back, trading them for other prisoners, way of stopping the war (capture faction leader), getting provinces for capturing family members, bribing them to join you.
    TW diplomacy certainly needs to go to the new level and such mechanics could help to achieve it.
    War is Hell, and I'm the Devil!

  17. #177
    Gogunbanzui's Avatar Civis
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    Default Total War: THREE KINGDOMS's unit roster Roman mercenary units

    Is there any possibility of hiring roman mercenary units like Cohors and Roman Legionaries once you establish trade routes with the Romans for this game?
    Last edited by Gogunbanzui; January 16, 2018 at 07:19 AM.

  18. #178
    LestaT's Avatar Artifex
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    Default Re: New Historical total war era - Total War: Three Kingdoms!

    Quote Originally Posted by Eien View Post
    I'm actually very interested to play the game with Chinese voiceovers, not sure if there's an option to have the game in english with chinese VO
    I'm sure there'll be Chinese voiceovers in battles. It will be shameful dispray if there were none.

    If CA really wants to penetrate the Chinese market, there's possibly a full Chinese version release, voice and text. Personally I would love the game to be fully in Chinese (voice) but have translations/subtitles in English. I dont like watching movies dubbed in different languages so I hope I can have the same experience in the game.

  19. #179
    AnthoniusII's Avatar XXI ARMORED BRIGADE
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    Default Re: New Historical total war era - Total War: Three Kingdoms!

    The questions that have to be answered by CA/SEGA staff are numerus and crusial.
    No matter if Heros will have "great" powers or not we still need to know the following.

    1. Will the province system follow the FAILED ones of Rome II and Attila with no conection of the star_map and battle map models?
    2. Will the settlements be able to FULLY walled or they will have huge gaps like in Attila inorder to allow "idiot" CAI to use them and invade in the cities?
    3. Will settlements have more that 6 building slots or that number is the limitation of CA/SEGA developers and they can not hundle creating more?
    4. Will AI be able to reach ATLEAST the standards of Rome I or better Shogun II or AI armies will wait AGAIN the walls to be melted by the rain and the wind?
    5. Will AI or player ATLEAST be able to catch, repair and use for his own same type ships like in ETW and Shogun II or it will return to the Rome II failed system again?
    6. Will AI will be able to use siege machines of each army of its own ussing 2 or more armies assaulting the same city like in Rome I (including tunnels) or we must wait Heros ot shout and make walls crumble and fall inorder AI armies to have a way in the cities?

    Many more questions must be answered but the list is endless.
    There are moments (in history), in which a nation owes,
    if it wants to be considered as a great one, to be able to fight.
    Even without hope of winning. Just because it has to.
    Greek War motto.
    XXI Armored Brigade. Proud that served in that unit in 1996!
    "Spartans do not ask how many (enemies are) but where they are"!
    XXI Armored Brigade's motto.
    The Greek Secret (or why they will fight again if it will be necessary or why they do not sell their history).


  20. #180

    Default Re: New Historical total war era - Total War: Three Kingdoms!

    Quote Originally Posted by LestaT View Post
    I dont like watching movies dubbed in different languages so I hope I can have the same experience in the game.



    About a Warring States period expansion/dlc/standalone game.
    How could would it be to have cinematics mirroring Hero? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DBDuvCYplu0

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