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Thread: New Historical total war era - Total War: Three Kingdoms!

  1. #141

    Default Re: New Historical total war era - Total War: Three Kingdoms!

    They really design a Three Kingdoms game based on Han dynasty fashion ( instead Song fashion as very many other Three Kingdoms games/comics/films).

    Of course, the General still use Song's weapon. However, almost of soldiers is from Han dynasty. I always dream about it.

  2. #142
    Roma_Victrix's Avatar Gatorade, is it in you?
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    Default Re: New Historical total war era - Total War: Three Kingdoms!

    Quote Originally Posted by Huberto View Post
    Love the fact that we’re getting a brand new HISTORICAL epic set in China. Worried as hell by the martial arts combat shown in the trailer.
    Yeah, let's hope it doesn't go all Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon at us.

    Quote Originally Posted by SturmChurro View Post
    Check out some high elf closeups, however you can't really personally set unit formation like you used to, can't even make archers spread out. Hopefully those make a return since this is a historical title.
    Why does CA insist on screwing the pooch here? Allowing your archers to adopt a loose formation shouldn't be some controversial issue. You should just be allowed to do it, like in previous titles. That's pretty aggravating.

    Quote Originally Posted by ggsimmonds View Post
    Can anyone point me to a good source on actual warfare of the time?

    I'm familiar with the events and people, but from what I've read it seems like it was mostly my group of peasant framers against yours, and whoever loses their nerve first loses the battle.
    For military organization of Han-dynasty Chinese forces, you should check out the following sources:

    * Bielenstein, Hans. (1980). The Bureaucracy of Han Times. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press. ISBN 0-521-22510-8.

    * Chang, Chun-shu. (2007). The Rise of the Chinese Empire: Volume II; Frontier, Immigration, & Empire in Han China, 130 B.C. – A.D. 157. Ann Arbor: University of Michigan Press. ISBN 0-472-11534-0.

    * de Crespigny, Rafe. (2007). A Biographical Dictionary of Later Han to the Three Kingdoms (23–220 AD). Leiden: Koninklijke Brill. ISBN 90-04-15605-4. [NOTE: although this is a collection of biographies, there is an important section on the military.]

    * Di Cosmo, Nicola. (2002). Ancient China and Its Enemies: The Rise of Nomadic Power in East Asian History. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press. ISBN 0-521-77064-5.

    To summarize things, during the Western Han (202 BC - 9 AD) and Wang Mang's Xin-dynasty interregnum (9-23 AD), there was a small professional standing army known as the Northern Army and a larger force of conscripted peasants known as the Southern Army. During the Eastern Han (25-220 AD), the mandatory two-year conscription service was discontinued in favor of an all-volunteer force, as peasants could simply pay to avoid conscription into the army. Convicted criminals avoided imprisonment of forced labor if they also joined the army. Mercenaries, as far as I know, were only used in significant numbers for the guard of the capital city Luoyang. Borderlands were mostly protected by foreign nomadic tribes drafted into Han military service. During times of crisis a system was already in place for organizing, commanding, managing and paying militias raised from the countryside.

    The problem with the Yellow Turban Rebellion, however, was that the central authority was so weakened that regional governors and noblemen decided to retain the forces they raised to quell the rebels, adding them to their private household retinues. The problem was exacerbated by the civil war of the coalition against Dong Zhuo, followed by the civil war between Yuan Shao and Cao Cao. These conflicts initiated a period of decentralized, semi-feudalism of regional lords raising their own armies for their own purposes. It was a problem corrected by later dynasties which restored order and central authority.

    Quote Originally Posted by yevon View Post
    They really design a Three Kingdoms game based on Han dynasty fashion ( instead Song fashion as very many other Three Kingdoms games/comics/films).

    Of course, the General still use Song's weapon. However, almost of soldiers is from Han dynasty. I always dream about it.
    They got something right at least. See the pictures I posted on the previous page of cavalrymen and infantrymen depicted in Han-period tomb murals and statues. The similarities between them and the regular soldiers in the trailer are fairly strong, although perhaps not a perfect representation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Oda Nobunaga View Post
    While not in the novel but rather in folklore, Cao Cao used Taoist magic to summon a swarm of locusts on Lu Bu. The locusts ate all of Lu Bu's grain and he was forced to retreat. This actually did happen when Lu Bu invaded Yan Province but of course chances are it wasn't caused by magic.
    Bet he didn't see that one coming! Serves Lu Bu right, for being such a backstabber.

    Quote Originally Posted by katsusand View Post
    While it's true my memory maybe faulty, as I read this a long while ago, I don't see how any of this contradict what I've said. The warfare depicted in the novel is fairly realistic and historically grounded. You won't get a ghost unit just because a ghost haunted a certain character in the novel.

    You will find stories of magicans, ghosts, spirits in all cultures' histories so it's not exactly noteworthy if the novel had elements of the supernatural in it's events... There are far crazier supernatural accounts in actual historical records in other cultures.
    So long as CA keeps the witchcraft and ghosts out of it, I'll be happy. I would also prefer that they not overpower famous individuals just because they're famous and are able to slash-and-hack five thousand soldiers in a single battle in the Dynasty Warriors games.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yue Fei View Post
    Your best bet is to start here: https://openresearch-repository.anu.edu.au/html/1885/42048/index.html Read Rafe's stuff, specifically Generals of the South.

    Additionally, go to this forum: http://the-scholars.com/ if you have any specific questions. There's a great deal of intelligent and well read individuals there.
    Thanks for the links!

    To be brief, in the earliest part of the period that is usually considered the "Three Kingdoms", the Yellow Turban Rebellion, the most skilled troops were those situated on the frontiers, and in the capital itself. Once Dong Zhuo came to power, the need for skilled troops became apparent. Cao Cao created a large number of military reforms, as well as monopolizing heavy cavalry supplemented by Di, Xiongnu, and Wuhuan tribes. In addition, he created agricultural reforms that were meant for the support of military forces. Instead of before where ordinary commoners had a military service obligation, Cao Cao created specific military households concentrated in the capital and other major areas. This allowed his military authorities to have stable bases from which reliable troops could be called upon. Most of the other states followed his example (Such as Zhuge Liang's plan was to implement Cao Cao's Tuntian policy in his northern campaigns).

    In the early part of this period (The Yellow Turban Rebellion) military institutions were ad hoc, and largely varied upon the commander's desires. There was no real standardization for the most part until Cao Cao established his power base, but by the time of Dong Zhuo, there had been enough battles and uprisings that most charismatic warlords were able to call upon skilled troops.
    Great summary, although I wouldn't exactly call the Eastern Han's professional standing Northern Army and the reserves guarding strategic passes as "ad hoc" military institutions. Perhaps you're thinking about the militias.

    The warfare in the novel isn't really historically grounded for the time period. There's quite a lot more duels between officers depicted in the novel than there are in the contemporary historical records of the time.

    - There's Lu Bu dueling Guo Si (Lu Bu was forced to withdraw once Guo Si's cavalry showed up)
    - The action where Guan Yu charged through Yan Liang's troops, impaled him with his spear, cut off his head, and returned to Cao Cao's lines
    - Yan Xing wounding and nearly killing Ma Chao (Ma Chao's men showed up and Yan Xing was forced to withdraw)
    - Taishi Ci and Sun Ce fighting it out hand to hand, both of their retinues show up, the two withdraw; Taishi Ci takes Bofu's helmet, Sun Ce takes Ziyi's short ji.

    Those are the only four that there are actual records for. In addition, the novel makes use of quite a few fantastical style formations (and methods in breaking them), weapons that didn't exist for another 900 years later (the big heavy axes, wolf teeth clubs, crescent halberds, etc), and the utilization of gunpowder signals which didn't exist at the time either. Not only does the novel not give a good depiction of Three Kingdoms era combat, it doesn't even give a good depiction of Song to Ming dynasty combat.
    This is exactly the sort of silliness that CA should keep out of this game. I don't want to see duels and I most definitely do not want to see gross anachronisms like gunpowder bombs being used. The odd weapon here or there that should belong to the Song/Yuan/Ming period is fine (albeit imperfect), so long as they don't go overboard. I want them to largely stick to what we know about Han and Three Kingdoms' period warfare, soldiery, tactics, equipment, weapons and armor.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Oda Nobunaga View Post
    Due to the inability of the central government to raise and maintain their armies they started to largely rely on nobles and the members of the landed gentry to provide troops in order to supplement the Imperial army.

    For example a commander such as Sun Jian, who was a minor official, could raise a small amount of troops and be rewarded with lands. The land would be used for upkeep and gradually the more campaigns they took part in they would gain more soldiers, spoils and provide their existing armies with experience. Though his family was not of high nobility they had considerable influence in their county and Sun Jian and his father worked as officials in Fuchun county.
    Ah! I see that you beat me to it. Good post.

    Quote Originally Posted by zoner16 View Post
    The "Fantasy" elements like the magic should probably be left to the wayside. The more mundane substitutions offer so much more in terms of gameplay and aesthetic. You don't need magic to cause rockslides or wildfires. Soldiers can do that just fine with some encouragement.
    I couldn't agree more! Another good post.

  3. #143
    Evan MF's Avatar Vicarius
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    Default Re: New Historical total war era - Total War: Three Kingdoms!

    Quote Originally Posted by SturmChurro View Post
    Well, this is a full on Total War title and not a saga. They could easily do something similar to SHOGUN 2and come out with DLC expansion(s) that focus on different periods in the region. Since it's this "Three Kingdoms" thing I don't think they are really going to diverge much from this central plot, at least in it's main campaign.

    I don't think they are going to be riding dragons, but I hope they have the lords more like they do in SHOGUN 2 rather than Warhammer where even benign melee lords were like 20 feet tall and could take on multiple 120 man units. In the trailer they definitely looked like the latter. Yes, Warhammer 2 does have some nice new animations with polearm/spear units. Check out some high elf closeups, however you can't really personally set unit formation like you used to, can't even make archers spread out. Hopefully those make a return since this is a historical title.
    Shogun 2 was about the limit for me with special abilities and 'hero' units (which were actually pretty poor value for money and largely useless, esp. in multiplayer). I expect Three Kingdoms to give their hero units a lot more of a role, given the emphasis the trailer gave them. If you compare this trailer to the Shogun 2 one, the Shogun 2 one had generic combatants dueling in somewhat of a realistic manner, whereas Three Kingdoms has all sorts of supernatural jump kills and ninja moves. I believe I speak for myself and many other old-skool players when I say that the original draw to Total War was the appeal of possessing a General's chessplayer-like power over large contingents of men, with the visceral character-driven side of war being less central and more of a secondary enhancement. I fear the latter is taking more and more precedence over the former in the Total War series in general.
    Last edited by Evan MF; January 12, 2018 at 12:41 PM.

  4. #144
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    Default Re: New Historical total war era - Total War: Three Kingdoms!

    Quote Originally Posted by Roma_Victrix View Post
    Why does CA insist on screwing the pooch here? Allowing your archers to adopt a loose formation shouldn't be some controversial issue. You should just be allowed to do it, like in previous titles. That's pretty aggravating.
    To make it worse, they added a "unique" activate ability for nearly every unit (not so unique). "Rally" "Fear" "Battlecry" "Heavy Shot" "Quick Reload" "Trample Charge".... It looks like my spell menu in Skyrim.

    If you find yourself equipping an active every time you do anything it should really be a passive ability. Or my preference, removed entirely. That way the battles are focused more on deployment and formation setups, not clicking a button to boost every unit stat for 90 secs.
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  5. #145
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    Default Re: New Historical total war era - Total War: Three Kingdoms!

    While I am fully agree with the choice of the China for the next TW game, I woud never call it "historical".
    Why? Because CA/SEGA USES the expirience of WARHAMMER game to import "Heros" in the game. Supenatural human beings that can change the course of the battle.
    Myths are good but have no place in historical games. Also we are not sure if the game will not sufair from the problems Rome II and Attila sufaired.
    There are moments (in history), in which a nation owes,
    if it wants to be considered as a great one, to be able to fight.
    Even without hope of winning. Just because it has to.
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  6. #146
    Roma_Victrix's Avatar Gatorade, is it in you?
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    Default Re: New Historical total war era - Total War: Three Kingdoms!

    Quote Originally Posted by Epic28 View Post
    To make it worse, they added a "unique" activate ability for nearly every unit (not so unique). "Rally" "Fear" "Battlecry" "Heavy Shot" "Quick Reload" "Trample Charge".... It looks like my spell menu in Skyrim.

    If you find yourself equipping an active every time you do anything it should really be a passive ability. Or my preference, removed entirely. That way the battles are focused more on deployment and formation setups, not clicking a button to boost every unit stat for 90 secs.
    That sounds pretty lame, actually. I'd rather just have purely authentic battle tactics. Not this video game witchcraft spell crap. Keep that out of historical titles, please!

    Quote Originally Posted by AnthoniusII View Post
    While I am fully agree with the choice of the China for the next TW game, I woud never call it "historical".
    Why? Because CA/SEGA USES the expirience of WARHAMMER game to import "Heros" in the game. Supenatural human beings that can change the course of the battle.
    Myths are good but have no place in historical games. Also we are not sure if the game will not sufair from the problems Rome II and Attila sufaired.
    In that case, their excuse would probably be that Dynasty Warriors has nearly invincible heroes, hence this game should have it too, to appeal to that market (and a giant one in mainland China, for that matter).

    That's ridiculous. This is a Total War game and should behave as such. It should reflect reality and be as historically authentic as possible. It is entirely their choice, too. They can deliberately add all the fantasy silliness, or they can rely instead on the advice of historians and actual Chinese historiography and historical primary sources from the 3rd century AD.

    Like Yevon, Yue Fei and I have said above, they seem to have done a fairly good job in representing how the common soldiers of the period looked, but they have already noticeably included some anachronistic weaponry that existed centuries later in the Song, Yuan, and Ming periods.

  7. #147
    Evan MF's Avatar Vicarius
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    Default Re: New Historical total war era - Total War: Three Kingdoms!

    Quote Originally Posted by Epic28 View Post
    To make it worse, they added a "unique" activate ability for nearly every unit (not so unique). "Rally" "Fear" "Battlecry" "Heavy Shot" "Quick Reload" "Trample Charge".... It looks like my spell menu in Skyrim.

    If you find yourself equipping an active every time you do anything it should really be a passive ability. Or my preference, removed entirely. That way the battles are focused more on deployment and formation setups, not clicking a button to boost every unit stat for 90 secs.
    Totally agreed. Not only are they extremely contrived, most of them are abilities that you would never want to not use. Is there ever a time when you wouldn't activate 'Banzai' during a No-Dachi charge? Or where you wouldn't use 'Second Wind' on Great Guard. They're totally redundant if there's no downsides to using them in most situations, they merely become a chore if you want to maximize your chances of winning a battle. Regardless of their redundancy though is the more important issue they pose: they totally obstruct the flow of the gameplay. I don't play Total War to spam ability buttons like I would in some MOBA or cookie-cutter arena RTS game, I play to embody the chessplayer-general role and command large bodies of men to their victory or demise, through maneuvering, positioning, formation and combined-arms combat. I am far less interested in monitoring spreadsheets units stats and optimizing their buffs than I am in reading the field as I see it, experimenting the with the particle system that the units are modeled by and playing with realistic physics engines. I have a feeling that the large hiring spree CA engaged in over the last several years, combined with the original developers taking more backseat roles or outright retiring from project management, is responsible for the special ability and hero feature-creep, at the expense of what made Total War such a unique gaming experience in the first place. A regrettable situation indeed.
    Last edited by Evan MF; January 12, 2018 at 01:57 PM.

  8. #148
    Roma_Victrix's Avatar Gatorade, is it in you?
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    Default Re: New Historical total war era - Total War: Three Kingdoms!

    Quote Originally Posted by Evan MF View Post
    Totally agreed. Not only are they extremely contrived, most of them are abilities that you would never want to not use. Is there ever a time when you wouldn't activate 'Banzai' during a No-Dachi charge? Or where you wouldn't use 'Second Wind' on Great Guard. They're totally redundant if there's no downsides to using them in most situations, they merely become a chore if you want to maximize your chances of winning a battle. Regardless of their redundancy though is the more important issue they pose: they totally obstruct the flow of the gameplay. I don't play Total War to spam ability buttons like I would in some MOBA or cookie-cutter arena RTS game, I play to embody the chessplayer-general role and command large bodies of men to their victory or demise, through maneuvering, positioning, formation and combined-arms combat. I am far less interested in monitoring spreadsheets units stats and optimizing their buffs than I am in reading the field as I see it, experimenting the with the particle system that the units are modeled by and playing with realistic physics engines. I have a feeling that the large hiring spree CA engaged in over the last several years, combined with the original developers taking more backseat roles or outright retiring from project management, is responsible for the special ability and hero feature-creep, at the expense of what made Total War such a unique gaming experience in the first place. A regrettable situation indeed.
    Sounds about right. I wish I could rep you for this post, but I've given out too much rep in the last 24 hours it seems.

  9. #149

    Default Re: New Historical total war era - Total War: Three Kingdoms!

    I wish I could rep you for this post, but I've given out too much rep in the last 24 hours it seems
    I did it for you.

    (I must say I too find some of the 'spreadsheet warfare' tedious and the plethora of statistics involved in deciding combat faintly ridiculous)

  10. #150

    Default Re: New Historical total war era - Total War: Three Kingdoms!

    I really hope these heroes are not in the actual game.
    War is Hell, and I'm the Devil!

  11. #151

    Default Re: New Historical total war era - Total War: Three Kingdoms!

    Can the heroes or battlefield spell-casters (don't know the exact terminology, sorry) be modded out of Warhammer? Is the game playable without them? Can they be ignored/not recruited by the player otherwise? This is kind of the most pressing thing for me as to whether I buy 3Ks or not.

  12. #152
    Lord Oda Nobunaga's Avatar 大信皇帝
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    Default Re: New Historical total war era - Total War: Three Kingdoms!

    Quote Originally Posted by Eien View Post
    Aside from the main three powers, there were Yuan Shao, Yuan Shu, Gongsun Zan during the Yellow Turban rebellion. If the game starts from 190CE then these factions should be there I suppose.
    I guess it really depends when this game is supposed to start.
    I'm assuming the start date is 190. If so there would be a lot of factions, too many for me to name all of them. If it was in say 193 then the factions should be Cao Cao, Liu Bei, Sun Jian, Gongsun Zan, Gonsun Yuan, Yuan Shao, Yuan Shu, Ma Teng, Li Jue, Liu Biao, Zhang Yang, Lu Bu, Liu Yao, Xu Gong, Wang Lang, Tao Qian, Zhang Xiu, Liu Zhang, Zhang Lu, the Xiongnu (in Bing province), the Yellow Turbans, various southern tribes, the Heishan Bandits.

    "Famous general without peer in any age, most superior in valor and inspired by the Way of Heaven; since the provinces are now subject to your will it is certain that you will increasingly mount in victory." - Ōgimachi-tennō

  13. #153

    Default Re: New Historical total war era - Total War: Three Kingdoms!

    Clue about the campaign map and possible non-Chinese factions (Korea, Mongols etc.)




    Last edited by KLAssurbanipal; January 12, 2018 at 05:25 PM.


  14. #154
    LestaT's Avatar Artifex
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    Default Re: New Historical total war era - Total War: Three Kingdoms!

    Quote Originally Posted by Evan MF View Post
    Totally agreed. Not only are they extremely contrived, most of them are abilities that you would never want to not use. Is there ever a time when you wouldn't activate 'Banzai' during a No-Dachi charge? Or where you wouldn't use 'Second Wind' on Great Guard. They're totally redundant if there's no downsides to using them in most situations, they merely become a chore if you want to maximize your chances of winning a battle. Regardless of their redundancy though is the more important issue they pose: they totally obstruct the flow of the gameplay. I don't play Total War to spam ability buttons like I would in some MOBA or cookie-cutter arena RTS game, I play to embody the chessplayer-general role and command large bodies of men to their victory or demise, through maneuvering, positioning, formation and combined-arms combat. I am far less interested in monitoring spreadsheets units stats and optimizing their buffs than I am in reading the field as I see it, experimenting the with the particle system that the units are modeled by and playing with realistic physics engines. I have a feeling that the large hiring spree CA engaged in over the last several years, combined with the original developers taking more backseat roles or outright retiring from project management, is responsible for the special ability and hero feature-creep, at the expense of what made Total War such a unique gaming experience in the first place. A regrettable situation indeed.
    I guess I've played all Total War games since Shogun 2 until Warhammer (yes, even Warhammer) not using any of those magic buttons in battles except maybe just few times in the beginning to see what they are all about. Not using them does not stop me from enjoying the game. Maybe since I dont play MP those buttons are of no use to me as I can win and even lose battles not using them.

    Yet, just because I'm not using them, I am not against having them in the game. it's to have it even when I dont need to use it rather than not having it if or when I want to use it.
    Last edited by Frunk; January 13, 2018 at 04:38 AM. Reason: Unnecessary comment removed.

  15. #155
    Roma_Victrix's Avatar Gatorade, is it in you?
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    Default Re: New Historical total war era - Total War: Three Kingdoms!

    I certainly don't want the game to have too much influence from Luo Guanzhong's novel and I'd rather it be more historically grounded in Chinese history texts like the Sanguozhi by Chen Shou. I almost certainly don't want it to have the Anime crap pumped out by Japan about the Three Kingdoms, either, including dragons, flying horses, supernatural strengths for generals, fiery laser beams, explosions, and Lu Bu's incredible singing voice.




    Quote Originally Posted by KLAssurbanipal View Post
    Clue about the campaign map and possible non-Chinese factions (Korea, Mongols etc.)




    The cool thing about this pic is the fact that the Chinese were actually the first to invent the raised-relief map, during the Han Dynasty no less! Or if the account of Sima Qian is to be believed (and confirmed by present-day archaeologists opening his tomb), then the 3rd-century-BC mausoleum of the first Qin emperor Qin Shihuang also has a giant raised-relief map with mercury rivers running through it. So this map that Cao Cao (or is it Yuan Shao?) is looking at here is a somewhat accurate portrayal. The Chinese also obviously had regular two-dimensional maps on silk scrolls and on paper, after the latter was invented during the 2nd century AD (attributed to the Han court eunuch Cai Lun).

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Oda Nobunaga View Post
    I guess it really depends when this game is supposed to start.
    I'm assuming the start date is 190. If so there would be a lot of factions, too many for me to name all of them. If it was in say 193 then the factions should be Cao Cao, Liu Bei, Sun Jian, Gongsun Zan, Gonsun Yuan, Yuan Shao, Yuan Shu, Ma Teng, Li Jue, Liu Biao, Zhang Yang, Lu Bu, Liu Yao, Xu Gong, Wang Lang, Tao Qian, Zhang Xiu, Liu Zhang, Zhang Lu, the Xiongnu (in Bing province), the Yellow Turbans, various southern tribes, the Heishan Bandits.
    Heh! Forgot about Heishan bandits. Although their rebellion was largely quelled, the Sino-Tibetan Qiang people still had a large and untenable presence in Liang province, modern Gansu in Western China. The proto-Mongolic tribes of the Wuhuan could also have their own faction. The map should quite honestly include northern Vietnam, then part of the Han Empire, and if we're going to bother doing that we might as well have the Champa Kingdom of southern Vietnam. The Han Empire also extended into norther Korea, so if we're going to bother doing that we might as well have the Goguryeo kingdom of northern Korean too.

  16. #156
    Lord Oda Nobunaga's Avatar 大信皇帝
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    Default Re: New Historical total war era - Total War: Three Kingdoms!

    Quote Originally Posted by KLAssurbanipal View Post
    Clue about the campaign map and possible non-Chinese factions (Korea, Mongols etc.)
    I don't understand. Why is it a clue about Koreans and Mongols? Mongols didn't exist during the Han Dynasty.
    It's a map of Sili province, you can tell because it shows Hulao pass, where the fictional battle between Dong Zhuo and the forces of the Alliance of the East (or the Coalition of the 18 Lords in the novel).

    On the left is Cao Cao (usually depicted with a red cape or cloak) and on the right is Liu Bei. Technically this is inaccurate since Liu Bei was not part of the Alliance he was only a militia captain (earlier being a peasant) in You province where he fought the Yellow Turbans. He was rewarded by the court and made prefect of Anxi county, later on he resigned and returned to fighting the Yellow Turbans in Xu province and was then made Prefect of Gaotang county. After this he joined the warlord Tao Qian in Xu province.

    Cao Cao for his part was able to raise a couple thousand men from his family's holdings. His father Cao Song had been Minister of Finance and Grand Commandant. His grandfather Cao Teng was a relatively influential eunuch within the palace of Emperor Huan. For Cao Teng's support during Emperor Huan's seizure of power he was made Marquis of Fei and allowed to stay in the court during the reign of the successor Emperor Ling. The Cao family had enough money that Cao Song could buy positions and raise a couple thousand men. By no means were they of the high nobility but they were certainly not peasants either.

    Through this influence Cao Cao was made a district captain of Luoyang in 176, then promoted to Magistrate of Dunqiu county. For his good service he was made one of Emperor Ling's court counselors and in this capacity he submitted a memorandum to Emperor Ling arguing for the removal of eunuchs from high positions of power. This led to his being purged in 180 by the Ten Attendants, led by the eunuch Zhang Rang. He was later recruited by generals Huangfu Song and Zhu Jun and made cavalry commander in the campaigns against the Yellow Turbans in the provinces of Yu, Ji and You. He was then made Chancellor of the city of Jinan but due to his strict rules and attempts at reform and curbing the power of the local gentry he then resigned due to fear of being assassinated and returned to his home county in 187.

    In 188 he returned to Luoyang and was made Colonel Who Arranges the Army, joining a select number of officers in a reformed Imperial Army alongside the likes of Yuan Shao, the Army of the Western Garden actually was commanded by the Emperor in person. Emperor Ling died in 189 and so de facto command of this army fell to Jian Shuo. The General in Chief He Jin, who was the brother of Empress He and plotted to purge Jian Shuo the Colonel of the Upper Army as well as the Ten Attendants, something which Cao Cao warned against. He Jin called Dong Zhuo with his troops to Luoyang but in the meantime He Jin was assassinated by the eunuchs.

    Dong Zhuo entered the capital soon after, placed the capital under martial law, executed the eunuchs, killed Empress He, removed Emperor Shao and placed Emperor Xian into power and made himself Regent, taking control of both Jian Shuo's Imperial guard army as well as He Jin's Imperial army. Dong Zhuo promoted Cao Cao to Colonel of the Resolute Cavalry and wanted to make him his strategist, Cao Cao rejected the promotion and went home to Yan province. Later he joined Yuan Shao's anti-Dong Zhuo coalition under Zhang Miao though fought only one engagement against Xu Rong at Xingyang. After this he left the coalition and took up military duties in Yan province, defeating the Heishan Bandits and their Xiongnu allies. Using the influence of his ally Yuan Shao and his connections within the government he was technically made the governor of Yan province in 192, though on paper he was still considered a magistrate of sorts he was able to use his military role to justify his appointment.
    Last edited by Lord Oda Nobunaga; January 12, 2018 at 06:39 PM.

    "Famous general without peer in any age, most superior in valor and inspired by the Way of Heaven; since the provinces are now subject to your will it is certain that you will increasingly mount in victory." - Ōgimachi-tennō

  17. #157

    Default Re: New Historical total war era - Total War: Three Kingdoms!

    To be entirely fair to the novel, it never really veers into Dynasty Warriors level nonsense. People perform some superhuman feats, but for the most part, they aren't immortal demigods. Generals and heroes die with pretty regular frequency, and while the series does like to dabble in the supernatural, it's mostly on the periphery.

    From the trailer, it felt like they were using the novel's style for presentation and aesthetic (reusing themes, some of the anachronisms), but we're going to need some in engine stuff to see how much of that gets translated over to gameplay and the narratives. From the blog posts we got before the reveal, it sounded like they were working very closely with some universities to research the period and the people, and I can't imagine any university of repute in Europe (where they seem to source most of their historical experts), would have pointed them at the novel for accurate history.

  18. #158

    Default Re: New Historical total war era - Total War: Three Kingdoms!

    Quote Originally Posted by Roma_Victrix View Post
    Yeah, let's hope it doesn't go all Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon at us.


    Great summary, although I wouldn't exactly call the Eastern Han's professional standing Northern Army and the reserves guarding strategic passes as "ad hoc" military institutions. Perhaps you're thinking about the militias.
    Yes, I was talking about the provincial forces. During the reign of Guangwu they were still quite formidable, but he took steps to reducing their effectiveness for worry that commoners knowing military matters. But indeed, the Northern Army, Liang troops, and on the frontiers were professional veterans who were well skilled.
    "The only thing I'm afraid of is fear." Sir Arthur Wellesley, 1st Duke of Wellington.

  19. #159

    Default Re: New Historical total war era - Total War: Three Kingdoms!

    Quote Originally Posted by Roma_Victrix View Post
    snip
    Thanks for the feedback, I'll have to to do more research next time. I wasn't trying to steer anyone towards an uneducated direction, I really had little knowledge of the historical background revolving around the Three Kingdoms of China. But thank you, I wouldn't learn from my missteps if someone wouldn't point them out.

    Regards! =)
    Last edited by Frunk; January 13, 2018 at 04:39 AM. Reason: Quote snipped for easier viewing.

  20. #160
    Lord Oda Nobunaga's Avatar 大信皇帝
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    Default Re: New Historical total war era - Total War: Three Kingdoms!

    Quote Originally Posted by Roma_Victrix View Post
    I certainly don't want the game to have too much influence from Luo Guanzhong's novel and I'd rather it be more historically grounded in Chinese history texts like the Sanguozhi by Chen Shou. I almost certainly don't want it to have the Anime crap pumped out by Japan about the Three Kingdoms, either, including dragons, flying horses, supernatural strengths for generals, fiery laser beams, explosions, and Lu Bu's incredible singing voice.

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    The cool thing about this pic is the fact that the Chinese were actually the first to invent the raised-relief map, during the Han Dynasty no less! Or if the account of Sima Qian is to be believed (and confirmed by present-day archaeologists opening his tomb), then the 3rd-century-BC mausoleum of the first Qin emperor Qin Shihuang also has a giant raised-relief map with mercury rivers running through it. So this map that Cao Cao (or is it Yuan Shao?) is looking at here is a somewhat accurate portrayal. The Chinese also obviously had regular two-dimensional maps on silk scrolls and on paper, after the latter was invented during the 2nd century AD (attributed to the Han court eunuch Cai Lun).



    Heh! Forgot about Heishan bandits. Although their rebellion was largely quelled, the Sino-Tibetan Qiang people still had a large and untenable presence in Liang province, modern Gansu in Western China. The proto-Mongolic tribes of the Wuhuan could also have their own faction. The map should quite honestly include northern Vietnam, then part of the Han Empire, and if we're going to bother doing that we might as well have the Champa Kingdom of southern Vietnam. The Han Empire also extended into norther Korea, so if we're going to bother doing that we might as well have the Goguryeo kingdom of northern Korean too.
    While that is true the Qiang people did not have a strong power base in Liang province. They were however a nuisance whenever they rebelled or allied with a rebellious military commander. The Xiongnu were the only ones that really had a strong presence within China itself since they had effectively been in control of Bing province for a century as Han vassals. When the Jin state nearly collapse it was the Xiongnu who temporarily filled the power vacuum in the west and created the state of Han Zhao, at this point many of the Xiongnu being sinicized.

    The Di moved in from Liang province and established Former Qin and Later Liang. The Wuhuan played a role in the Three Kingdoms period but were defeated by Cao Cao. Later they were absorbed by the Khitan peoples of the steppe. The Jie people which were supposed to have come from the Yuezhi people in the west established the state of Later Zhao. The Xianbei were the most successful as they established six kingdoms starting with Former Yan in the east. Eventually they created the powerful Wei Empire under the Tuoba clan, a Xianbei family which had sinicized.

    In the far south the state of Eastern Wu sent expeditions and regained control of the Vietnam area. An expedition near the end of Sun Quan's reign encountered a place called "Funan" which was a tribal confederacy of sorts in what is modern day Cambodia. They paid tribute and sent envoys to Sun Quan. According to records they had their own tribal religions but also practiced Hinduism, later adopting Buddhism and even learning to write in Sanskrit by the 4th century.
    Last edited by Frunk; January 13, 2018 at 04:39 AM. Reason: Embedding from quote removed for easier viewing.

    "Famous general without peer in any age, most superior in valor and inspired by the Way of Heaven; since the provinces are now subject to your will it is certain that you will increasingly mount in victory." - Ōgimachi-tennō

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