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Thread: New Historical total war era - Total War: Three Kingdoms!

  1. #321
    Lord Oda Nobunaga's Avatar 大信皇帝
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    Default Re: New Historical total war era - Total War: Three Kingdoms!

    Around the year 80 I think, there was a succession war within the Xiongnu. The pretender king fled south into China with his followers. The Han court allowed him to set up his own southern kingdom in the run down Bing province. The southern chief pledged his allegiance to the Han Dynasty. Ever since the Xiongnu provided soldiers to the Han Dynasty and took part in defending the borders. Decades later the Han Dynasty waged campaigns on the steppe to break the power of the northern Xiongnu once and for all. What remained of the Xiongnu on the steppe were chased out by the growing power of the Wuhuan and Xianbei tribes. Where as the southern Xiongnu remained in Bing province south of the Ordos River and gradually began to embrace Chinese culture while maintaining their tribal lifestyle.

    During the Yellow Turban revolt there was a similar incident with the Xiongnu in Bing province where their king Yufuluo was usurped by his brother Huchuquan. He and his followers went into China to raid and later joined the Eastern Alliance against Dong Zhuo. After this coalition war he joined with the Heishan mountain bandits, then later joined the warlord and wannabe emperor Yuan Shu. In both cases he was defeated by Cao Cao and chased out until he finally died in 196. His followers went back to Bing province and joined his brother the "Chanyu" Huchuquan. When Cao Cao campaigned against Yuan Shao the Chanyu Huchuquan sided with the latter. After Cao Cao defeat Yuan Shao and his sons the Xiongnu would then submit to Cao Cao. Huchuquan died in 216 and was succeeded by his oldest nephew Liu Bao (the son of Yufuluo).

    In 304 when the newly established Jin dynasty lost control of the north it was actually Yufuluo's grandson Liu Yuan who established the Han Zhao Empire. Short lived because it was one of many competing states by that point. It was conquered in 329 by Later Zhao, a state formed by Sinicized peoples of the Jie tribes from the western regions. These were in turn conquered by Sinicized Xianbei and Di tribes in 351 as well as one ethnically Han warlord called Ran Min who literally tried to commit genocide on non-Chinese by executing everyone with beards and large noses in places which he conquered.

    To my knowledge there was no free city or republic. Although in Hanzhong a man called Zhang Lu overthrew the governor and established a Taoist theocracy. Decades later he was defeated and killed by Cao Cao.

    So the timeline goes:
    -184 Yellow Turban rebellion errupts

    -189 Emperor Ling dies which prompts He Jin and his sister Empress He to plot against the Eunuch Faction, he orders Dong Zhuo to bring troops in order to seize control of the capital but is assassinated, Dong Zhuo arrives, kills the eunuchs, seizes control of both He Jin's army and Emperor Ling's army and declares martial law, kills Empress He and her son Emperor Shao, places Emperor Xian into power and declares himself regent

    -190 several officers and nobles form a coalition against Dong Zhuo and after some defeats he chooses to burn Luoyang and relocate the capital east to Chang'an

    -191 the coalition falls apart due to infighting

    -192 Dong Zhuo is assassinated, in addition the Yellow Turban revolt is put down in most of the country

    -193 Jue Xuan raises 1000 men and proclaims himself emperor and is supported by the warlord Tao Qian, Tao Qian kills Cao Song which leads to his son Cao Cao declaring war on Tao Qian and killing the pretender Jue Xuan

    -196 Cao Cao takes control of Emperor Xian and convinces him to relocate the capital to Cao Cao's city of Xuchang, Yuan Shu proclaims himself Emperor of the Zhong Dynasty which leads to a coalition being formed against him and he is defeated and dies in 199

    -200 Cao Cao defeats the mega warlord Yuan Shao and then that warlord dies in 202

    -208 Cao Cao conquerors most of the north and then heads south and takes Jing province, an alliance between Liu Bei and Sun Quan leads to the Battle of Red Cliff in which Cao Cao is defeated

    -215 Cao Cao conquers Liang province in the west and Hanzhong, Liu Bei conquers Yi province (China is now ruled by Cao Cao, Liu Bei and Sun Quan

    -216 Cao Cao is made King of Wei by Emperor Xian

    -219 Liu Bei takes Hanzhong and proclaims himself King of Hanzhong, Cao Cao allies with Sun Quan and the two move against Liu Bei to take Jing province from Liu Bei

    -220 Cao Cao dies, his son Cao Pi forces Emperor Xian to abdicate, Cao Pi proclaims himself Emperor of Wei, Liu Bei proclaims himself Emperor of Han, Sun Quan is made King of Wu by Cao Pi

    -222 Liu Bei invades Wu but is defeated by Sun Quan's forces at Xiaoting

    -223 Liu Bei falls ill and dies and is succeeded by his son Liu Shan, Cao Pi takes the opportunity and invades Wu but is unable to defeat Sun Quan

    -226 Cao Pi falls ill and dies and is succeeded by his son Cao Rui

    -228 the chancellor of the Han, minister Zhuge Liang, leads five campaigns north to invade Wei, Cao Rui orders an invasion into Wu which fails, Sun Quan then orders counter attacks north into Wei, which fail to take ground

    -234 chancellor Zhuge Liang dies and the general who defended Wei, a man called Sima Yi, is promoted

    -239 Cao Rui dies and names his uncle Cao Shuang and general Sima Yi as regents for the baby Cao Fang

    -249 Sima Yi successfully purges Cao Shuang and his family now controls the court through influence

    -251 Sima Yi puts down a rebellion by Wang Ling but dies soon after, his older son Sima Shi become regent for the 12 year old Cao Fang

    -252 Sun Quan dies which leads to a succession struggle between his sons Sun Liang, and Sun Xiu as well as nephew Sun Chen

    -254 Sima Shi forces Cao Fang to abdicate and puts his cousin Cao Mao as Emperor of Wei

    -255 Sima Shi puts down a revolt by Guanqiu Jian and Wen Qin, Sima Shi then dies and his younger brother Sima Zhao becomes regent

    -258 Sima Zhao puts down a revolt by Zhuge Dan and Sun Chen

    -260 Emperor Cao Mao attempts to overthrow Sima Zhao but is defeated and forced to abdicate, his great uncle Cao Huan is made Emperor of Wei, Sima Zhao is made Duke of Jin

    -263 Sima Zhao conquerors Liu Shan's Shu Han Empire

    -264 Sima Zhao puts down revolts by Zhong Hui and Jiang Wei, is made King of Jin

    -265 Sima Zhao dies, succeeded by his son Sima Yan

    -266 Sima Yan forces Cao Huan to abdicate, Cao Wei Empire is replaced by Jin Empire and Sima Yan becomes Emperor

    -280 Sima Yan conquers Wu and unifies China under the Jin Dynasty

    -290 Sima Yan dies and is succeeded by Sima Zhong, various revolts carried out by members of the Sima family from 291-307 shake the empire's core

    -304 various invasions carried out by barbarians cause the north to be lost by 316, Chinese states are established by the Qiang, Di, Xiongnu, Jie and Xianbei tribes, Jin dynasty gradually pushed into the south past the Yangtze River, a century is spent trying to defend the frontier until a general named Liu Song usurps and established the Liu Song state in the south in 420

    304 - 439 Sixteen Kingdoms, China is in an all out war and only the south survives, in the north states are formed and then quickly collapse

    -440 Liu Song dominates the south and Northern Wei conquers the north
    Last edited by Lord Oda Nobunaga; January 28, 2018 at 06:29 AM.

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  2. #322

    Default Re: New Historical total war era - Total War: Three Kingdoms!

    On second look, this game is less likely to have magical elements than I initially though upon re-watching the trailer. Some people mentioned that the weapons the three generals wield to be magical weapons, yet, in the trailer there is not a single magical element even though we have a good fighting scene there. No magical power use whatsoever. If those weapons are depicted as magical in the game where is their magic?
    The Armenian Issue

  3. #323

    Default Re: New Historical total war era - Total War: Three Kingdoms!

    See my thread with maps.
    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...(very-diverse)

    The 3k map (and presumably the game) focuses on the core provinces, while the DLCs will include the Korean peninsula, Vietnam, parts of the Tibetan plateau and the Western regions I suppose.
    The Han Dynasty controlled half the Korean peninsula, northern Vietnam, and the Western Regions. They broke off into their own commanderies during this era, and allied with various military governors or even native kingdoms.
    Gongsun Du and Gongsun Kang in the Northeastern part of the map took over the remaining Han Dynasty commanderies in Manchuria and northern Korea and also fought Goguryeo. Wei later fought wars with Goguryeo as well and invaded a large chunk of the Korean pennisula.
    The commanderies of Jiaozhi and later Eastern Wu fought rebellions and wars in northern Vietnam & Southern China against the Sino-Vietnamese people. Lady Trieu is a famous Vietnamese warrior during this time who fought Eastern Wu.
    The commanderies of the Western Regions were cut off from the province of Gansu (Gansu was ruled by Ma Teng and Han Sui in the OP's map), and suffered attacks from Central Asia, Qiang, Tibetan tribes, etc, and was later rebuilt & restablished by Cao-Wei and the Jin Empires.

    Add in the Northern and Southern Xiongnu tribes, Wuhuan, and Xianbei nomadic factions.
    Last edited by Intranetusa; January 28, 2018 at 01:33 PM.

  4. #324
    JackDionne's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: New Historical total war era - Total War: Three Kingdoms!

    Quote Originally Posted by Setekh View Post
    On second look, this game is less likely to have magical elements than I initially though upon re-watching the trailer. Some people mentioned that the weapons the three generals wield to be magical weapons, yet, in the trailer there is not a single magical element even though we have a good fighting scene there. No magical power use whatsoever. If those weapons are depicted as magical in the game where is their magic?
    It will be historical according to CA web site.
    https://www.creative-assembly.com/bl...doms-announced
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  5. #325
    Frunk's Avatar Form Follows Function
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    Default Re: New Historical total war era - Total War: Three Kingdoms!

    Quote Originally Posted by Leonardo View Post
    Man, that MTW intro video certainly bring backs memory and is by now nostalgic too.

    +rep
    Quote Originally Posted by NorseThing View Post
    I agree 110% with you on this. I watched the trailer and thought to myself that I want that game. Oh wait. I have that game and I think perhaps I might even run through a few turns tonight. +rep to both of you -- it makes today better just to view the trailer.
    No problem. The point is that trailers are for marketing purposes, and therefore they might not be the best or most accurate representation of gameplay. Medieval I looked literally nothing like that trailer/intro in either campaign or battle mode.

  6. #326

    Default Re: New Historical total war era - Total War: Three Kingdoms!

    Anybody else remember how Shougn 2's trailer wonderfully depicted the dueling mechanic in the game?

    Or how Rome 2's Carthage trailer beautifully depicted actual in game siege combat?


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  7. #327

    Default Re: New Historical total war era - Total War: Three Kingdoms!

    Quote Originally Posted by ptoss1 View Post
    Or how Rome 2's Carthage trailer beautifully depicted actual in game siege combat?
    Lol

  8. #328

    Default Re: New Historical total war era - Total War: Three Kingdoms!

    Quote Originally Posted by Intranetusa View Post
    Lol
    Yeah those two examples only give us less reason to take the new trailer seriously.

    I just hope if they go the Shogun 2 route they at least are not going to half ass the combat between regular units like they did with Rome 2 and instead take some influence from the older titles like Med 2.

  9. #329
    Frunk's Avatar Form Follows Function
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    Default Re: New Historical total war era - Total War: Three Kingdoms!

    Quote Originally Posted by ptoss1 View Post
    Anybody else remember how Shougn 2's trailer wonderfully depicted the dueling mechanic in the game?

    Or how Rome 2's Carthage trailer beautifully depicted actual in game siege combat?
    I never played those games, so if that's sarcasm, it's lost on me.

  10. #330

    Default Re: New Historical total war era - Total War: Three Kingdoms!

    Quote Originally Posted by Frunk View Post
    I never played those games, so if that's sarcasm, it's lost on me.
    The Shogun 2 trailer shows a duel prior to a siege battle. As far as I know there is no actual mechanic to simulate that duel in the game.

    The Carthage trailer was one of the primary marketing devices used by CA to promote Rome 2. Turns out it was entirely fake.


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  11. #331
    Aanker's Avatar Concordant
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    Default Re: New Historical total war era - Total War: Three Kingdoms!

    After watching the trailer a few times more and reading up on the period, I have to admit I've changed my mind. I'm excited for this Total War and I think there is great potential to learn about Chinese history and notable characters.

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  12. #332
    Lord Oda Nobunaga's Avatar 大信皇帝
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    Default Re: New Historical total war era - Total War: Three Kingdoms!

    Quote Originally Posted by Intranetusa View Post
    See my thread with maps.
    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...(very-diverse)

    The 3k map (and presumably the game) focuses on the core provinces, while the DLCs will include the Korean peninsula, Vietnam, parts of the Tibetan plateau and the Western regions I suppose.
    The Han Dynasty controlled half the Korean peninsula, northern Vietnam, and the Western Regions. They broke off into their own commanderies during this era, and allied with various military governors or even native kingdoms.
    Gongsun Du and Gongsun Kang in the Northeastern part of the map took over the remaining Han Dynasty commanderies in Manchuria and northern Korea and also fought Goguryeo. Wei later fought wars with Goguryeo as well and invaded a large chunk of the Korean pennisula.
    The commanderies of Jiaozhi and later Eastern Wu fought rebellions and wars in northern Vietnam & Southern China against the Sino-Vietnamese people. Lady Trieu is a famous Vietnamese warrior during this time who fought Eastern Wu.
    The commanderies of the Western Regions were cut off from the province of Gansu (Gansu was ruled by Ma Teng and Han Sui in the OP's map), and suffered attacks from Central Asia, Qiang, Tibetan tribes, etc, and was later rebuilt & restablished by Cao-Wei and the Jin Empires.

    Add in the Northern and Southern Xiongnu tribes, Wuhuan, and Xianbei nomadic factions.
    Weren't the Qiang essentially Tibetan tribes? I don't really know what else was in Tibet at the time.

    Weren't the Northern Xiongnu in Central Asia by then? I think it was around 155 that the Xianbei tribes wiped them out and they were forced to leave the Altai mountains and whoever survived moved into Central Asia.

    "Famous general without peer in any age, most superior in valor and inspired by the Way of Heaven; since the provinces are now subject to your will it is certain that you will increasingly mount in victory." - Ōgimachi-tennō

  13. #333

    Default Re: New Historical total war era - Total War: Three Kingdoms!

    Tibet was pretty much irrelevant all the way up until the 7th century during the Tibetan Empire. Sort of like Mongols. Of course there are a bunch of "proto-" groups you can link them to but we hardly know anything about them.

    The only non-Chinese faction I could see making it into the game is Goguryeo.


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  14. #334
    saxdude's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: New Historical total war era - Total War: Three Kingdoms!

    So people don't give CA enough credit to think that the game will be more historical than fantastical, yet people give enough credit to CA that they will only include historically relevant factions to the game, and thus a more samey experience.

    Make up your mind guys.

  15. #335
    SinisterOmen's Avatar Libertus
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    Default Re: New Historical total war era - Total War: Three Kingdoms!

    I think the game will be as historical as we're used to in Rome 2 or Attila. As people has been saying, let's be honest they're not very historical to begin with. There's a lot of artistic liberty.
    I doubt there's gonna be any magic outside shieldwall giving you +50 defense and attack an other buffs.
    The only thing that worries me for now are possible hero units, single entities killing hundreds of models on their own like in WH.

    We need more information basically.

  16. #336

    Default Re: New Historical total war era - Total War: Three Kingdoms!

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Oda Nobunaga View Post
    Weren't the Qiang essentially Tibetan tribes? I don't really know what else was in Tibet at the time.
    I am not sure. I've read that the Qiang are related to Tibetan tribes, and I've read that they were also different as well. The Qiang were living in both the regions inside and outside of the Tibetan Plateau. So maybe they may have been just "one" of the proto-Tibetan peoples.

    Today, the Qiang are classified as their own ethnic group and live in Sichuan (Shu-Han territory) as opposed to also the territories of Xiliang (Ma Teng/Han Sui in the 3K map). They apparently have a matrilineal culture with tower-pyramid like fortified towns and castles, so they seem to have a different culture and architecture from Tibetans in the Tibetan Plateau.




    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Oda Nobunaga View Post
    Weren't the Northern Xiongnu in Central Asia by then? I think it was around 155 that the Xianbei tribes wiped them out and they were forced to leave the Altai mountains and whoever survived moved into Central Asia.
    I think so. They would've been more around Central Asia and the Western Regions of the Han Dynasty. So they could be relevant if they were still interacting or attacking the Han commanderies and military governors of the Western Regions (later taken over by Wei I believe), or we can use a little TW fiction and say the Northern Xiongnu were still attacking further east as well.
    Last edited by Intranetusa; February 01, 2018 at 04:19 PM.

  17. #337
    NorseThing's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: New Historical total war era - Total War: Three Kingdoms!

    If the SAGA Thrones of Britannia YouTube.com videos just posted are any indication -- be prepared for a very different game product coming down the pike. No agents, more focus on the leader development and perhaps smaller battles as you gear up your campaigns. Take a look in the other threads -- also the SAGA comes out fairly quick and that may tell more about what the 3K will be than our complaining here on the ether ware.

  18. #338

    Default Re: New Historical total war era - Total War: Three Kingdoms!

    I was thinking exactly the same thing when I saw the Brittania info. All the features look like something that could be ported over to 3K, almost as if the Saga game is a trial run or something.


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  19. #339
    Lord Oda Nobunaga's Avatar 大信皇帝
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    Default Re: New Historical total war era - Total War: Three Kingdoms!

    Placing the exact position of the Northern Xiongnu at the time is somewhat difficult. It might be argued that after the year 200 they ended up somewhere near the Caspian Sea. The Han Dynasty had largely lost its access to the oasis city states in Xinjiang after the Qiang tribes came out of Qinghai and Amdo in the Tibetan plateau and began to attack Liang province. There were also threats from the Xianbei and the Wuhuan tribes on the Mongolian steppe. All of those issues developing from the frontiers as early as the year 86 made it difficult to maintain direct control over the west. Generals were sent into Central Asia to wage campaigns and to assert control over the west but after 107 the Western Protectorate was abolished. By the time of the Three Kingdoms control of those areas in the west were only nominal although the city states and tribes that lived in Xinjiang could still pledge allegiance to the Han. For example when Cao Cao defeated the warlords in Liang province this was followed by the eventual request by the cities and tribes of Xinjiang for protection, which lasted until the fall of the Jin Dynasty at the hands of the barbarians.
    Last edited by Lord Oda Nobunaga; February 02, 2018 at 12:53 AM.

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  20. #340
    Aanker's Avatar Concordant
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    Default Re: New Historical total war era - Total War: Three Kingdoms!

    Would be nice to see the silk road(s) as some sort of mechanic... Though I can't recall from my most recent reading of Peter Frankopan's work what the status of that trade network was during the Three Kingdoms era. Nevertheless, it sort of piqued my interest in the Central Asian region.

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