New Historical total war era - Total War: Three Kingdoms!

[Lord Oda Nobunaga]

As large as the potential market of China is I think that a lot of people are putting too much faith in China. The sad fact of the matter is that China is not a stable market and so companies can have profit one year and be disappointed the next. Chinese regulations are so stringent that it is smart for any company to never put too many chips into the Chinese market because that could very well backfire. Most of what we've heard about China for the last two decades have been over estimations of that country's capabilities, on paper the economic potential is there. However in reality there are too many factors to take into account. For instance why does China only have 15 million Steam users when it really ought to have so many more? There is good reason to not make the Chinese your target audience. In addition to many factors such as piracy, the difference of the Chinese audience, government regulations of both foreign trade and their own citizenry it seems that no one considers things like GDP either.

[caratacus]

As large as the potential market of China is I think that a lot of people are putting too much faith in China. The sad fact of the matter is that China is not a stable market and so companies can have profit one year and be disappointed the next. Chinese regulations are so stringent that it is smart for any company to never put too many chips into the Chinese market because that could very well backfire.

Well it does say in that Gamasutra.com article

"It is worth keeping in mind that the Chinese government could very easily impose restrictions and regulations on Steam in China at any time. This could make it harder for games to be published on the platform and many games could be banned from being sold in China,” says Ahmad. “Right now, these restrictions are not in place and so Steam remains an opportunity for many indie and larger publishers to target the niche of gamers in China who are willing to pay upfront for games.”

This can only mean, if you're talking of development budgets running into many millions of dollars, having game companies liaise with the Chinese authorities through the Country's State Administration of Press, Publication, Radio, Film and Television, to ensure acceptable content. The result is not only a more sanitized game but one more focused on an official interpretation of history. In this, less realism and more fantasy is always going to be a safer bet for such companies to take. Although the period Three Kingdoms is focused upon is unlikely to be a problem I would have thought, but who knows! A game focused on the 20th century history is another matter. The CCP spent decades attempting to erase and reconstruct knowledge of China's history among the population. Even today it remains something which is seen as being political and in some areas highly sensitive. Anything which is seen as not presenting a positive image is very much frowned upon.

Most of what we've heard about China for the last two decades have been over estimations of that country's capabilities, on paper the economic potential is there. However in reality there are too many factors to take into account. For instance why does China only have 15 million Steam users when it really ought to have so many more? There is good reason to not make the Chinese your target audience. In addition to many factors such as piracy, the difference of the Chinese audience, government regulations of both foreign trade and their own citizenry it seems that no one considers things like GDP either.

Yes, piracy was a problem in the past, which is were Steam comes in I think. Any difference between the Chinese taste games and other countries may change. "Player Unknown Battlegrounds" has been hugely successful in China and reveals a demand for this type of game that wasn't previously thought to be the case. Many developers are right now scrambling to follow this success in future releases. The fact remains though that the PC games market in China is only really just kicking off, surprisingly. And with the sort of growth being talked about, games developers aren't going to ignore it and carry on as before. Whether it will change the type of games being played today for the better or worse is difficult to say, but things aren't going to remain as they are now. How it will change Total War will be determined by "TW Three Kingdoms" it's that important. Which is why I am frustrated at the lack of detail given so far.

[ptoss1]

It's not like China's market was the only deciding factor in making Three Kingdoms. There's only so many settings and periods you can go to without seeming like you're just rehashing the same thing over and over again. Outside of Europe, the next big place with immense wars and world changing events is China.

I mean, given the fact that CA stated that this would be a "new setting" and a "new era", honestly where else exactly were they supposed to go? The only people who honestly believed they would make another game set in Europe were those who viewed every piece of information we received with immense creative bias.

[caratacus]

It's not like China's market was the only deciding factor in making Three Kingdoms. There's only so many settings and periods you can go to without seeming like you're just rehashing the same thing over and over again. Outside of Europe, the next big place with immense wars and world changing events is China.

I mean, given the fact that CA stated that this would be a "new setting" and a "new era", honestly where else exactly were they supposed to go? The only people who honestly believed they would make another game set in Europe were those who viewed every piece of information we received with immense creative bias.

No. it was the deciding factor, it's a great move providing something refreshingly different and interesting. But it also comes at the right time, especially given the development of the Chinese PC game market. It is an opportunity of bringing the Total War experience to a great many more people. I just hope that it keeps its core values as a historic strategy game.

[ptoss1]

No. it was the deciding factor, it's a great move providing something refreshingly different and interesting. But it also comes at the right time, especially given the development of the Chinese PC game market. It is an opportunity of bringing the Total War experience to a great many more people. I just hope that it keeps its core values as a historic strategy game.

There aren't any other major settings outside of Europe. Sure maybe just the decision not to have another European TW was a marketing decision in itself, but it's not like there are a lot of other choices. Where else except for China would they have gone?

Most of the middle east and even India are too tied to the western world. The American Civil War is too limited in scope. It was either China or do another European TW.

The moment CA announced the game would be set in a "new era" and "new setting," it was already essentially confirmed it would be set in China. Perhaps not Three Kingdoms, but some other era.

[Roma_Victrix]

As large as the potential market of China is I think that a lot of people are putting too much faith in China. The sad fact of the matter is that China is not a stable market and so companies can have profit one year and be disappointed the next. Chinese regulations are so stringent that it is smart for any company to never put too many chips into the Chinese market because that could very well backfire. Most of what we've heard about China for the last two decades have been over estimations of that country's capabilities, on paper the economic potential is there. However in reality there are too many factors to take into account. For instance why does China only have 15 million Steam users when it really ought to have so many more? There is good reason to not make the Chinese your target audience. In addition to many factors such as piracy, the difference of the Chinese audience, government regulations of both foreign trade and their own citizenry it seems that no one considers things like GDP either.

I wouldn't argue much against these assertions except to add that this game won't just be aimed at the Chinese market. One should also consider the popularity of Romance of the Three Kingdoms in South Korea, Japan, Singapore and Taiwan, or among the Chinese diaspora in places like Malaysia or even the US and Canada. KOEI's Dynasty Warriors is hugely popular in its native Japan. On top of that CA's TW series are simply popular in the West and a return to a historical title will garner attention no matter what, given how the last two releases were pure fantasy involving the WH universe.

[JackDionne]

I wouldn't argue much against these assertions except to add that this game won't just be aimed at the Chinese market. One should also consider the popularity of Romance of the Three Kingdoms in South Korea, Japan, Singapore and Taiwan, or among the Chinese diaspora in places like Malaysia or even the US and Canada. KOEI's Dynasty Warriors is hugely popular in its native Japan. On top of that CA's TW series are simply popular in the West and a return to a historical title will garner attention no matter what, given how the last two releases were pure fantasy involving the WH universe.

The wisest words I have heard to date on the subject. Better not be a fantasy game or I am out for another couple of years.

[Evan MF]

There aren't any other major settings outside of Europe. Sure maybe just the decision not to have another European TW was a marketing decision in itself, but it's not like there are a lot of other choices. Where else except for China would they have gone?

Most of the middle east and even India are too tied to the western world. The American Civil War is too limited in scope. It was either China or do another European TW.

The moment CA announced the game would be set in a "new era" and "new setting," it was already essentially confirmed it would be set in China. Perhaps not Three Kingdoms, but some other era.

Total War: Victoria with a US Civil War day-one DLC would sell like absolute hotcakes on both sides of the Atlantic and would probably have made more money than Three Kingdoms is going to.

I am rather sceptical of the suggestion that CA are trying to break into the Chinese market, or at least, the suggestion that it is one of their primary motivations in choosing the setting. For two main reasons I feel this is unlikely: Chinese censorship throws up way too much risk for a company as large as CA and secondly, there is no track record of games like Total War in China; with all the talk of fantasy elements creeping into this next 'historical title', let's be clear, Total War levels of fantasy-creep are a world of difference to the average level of fantasy depicted in East-Asian 'historically'-themed games and for this reason I believe Three Kingdoms is as likely to succeed in the Chinese market as Shogun 2 was in the Japanese market. No, the real motivation is simply to diversify the franchise for Western audiences by giving casuals an extra theme/era to visit that they haven't experienced before. You have to remember that Total War titles have a very long-tale sales cycle, longer than many others game franchises. People to this day who are thinking of getting into the series for the first time are probably weighing up games as old as Empire against Shogun 2 or Rome 2 - to this day I find Napoleon and Shogun 2 more visually appealing than Rome2, despite being earlier titles. The more eras you have in your lineup the more likely you are to appeal to that customer's niche historical interest. Moreover, the more product variety in a long-tale franchise like Total War, the more likely you are to sell more than one title to a casual customer. If CA just made the same era over and over again there'd be no reason for anyone except a die-hard, loyal (and probably TWC forumer) fan to purchase the sequels. You can imagine them maximising sales in the long run by doing what they're doing.

I still think Total War: Victoria would have been a better business decision to do at this point as its been a while since we had a proper firearms warfare title and as said, it would have a lot of cross-Atlantic appeal.

[Lord Oda Nobunaga]

I wouldn't argue much against these assertions except to add that this game won't just be aimed at the Chinese market. One should also consider the popularity of Romance of the Three Kingdoms in South Korea, Japan, Singapore and Taiwan, or among the Chinese diaspora in places like Malaysia or even the US and Canada. KOEI's Dynasty Warriors is hugely popular in its native Japan. On top of that CA's TW series are simply popular in the West and a return to a historical title will garner attention no matter what, given how the last two releases were pure fantasy involving the WH universe.

Makes sense. I mean Sega and Koei Tecmo are Japanese companies.

[PointOfViewGun]

Total War: Victoria with a US Civil War day-one DLC would sell like absolute hotcakes on both sides of the Atlantic and would probably have made more money than Three Kingdoms is going to.

I doubt that. It would be definitely the first Total War game I'd consider not buying. A lot of people don't necessarily find that era enjoying.

[izzi]

Total War: Victoria with a US Civil War day-one DLC would sell like absolute hotcakes on both sides of the Atlantic and would probably have made more money than Three Kingdoms is going to.

I am rather sceptical of the suggestion that CA are trying to break into the Chinese market, or at least, the suggestion that it is one of their primary motivations in choosing the setting. For two main reasons I feel this is unlikely: Chinese censorship throws up way too much risk for a company as large as CA and secondly, there is no track record of games like Total War in China; with all the talk of fantasy elements creeping into this next 'historical title', let's be clear, Total War levels of fantasy-creep are a world of difference to the average level of fantasy depicted in East-Asian 'historically'-themed games and for this reason I believe Three Kingdoms is as likely to succeed in the Chinese market as Shogun 2 was in the Japanese market. No, the real motivation is simply to diversify the franchise for Western audiences by giving casuals an extra theme/era to visit that they haven't experienced before. You have to remember that Total War titles have a very long-tale sales cycle, longer than many others game franchises. People to this day who are thinking of getting into the series for the first time are probably weighing up games as old as Empire against Shogun 2 or Rome 2 - to this day I find Napoleon and Shogun 2 more visually appealing than Rome2, despite being earlier titles. The more eras you have in your lineup the more likely you are to appeal to that customer's niche historical interest. Moreover, the more product variety in a long-tale franchise like Total War, the more likely you are to sell more than one title to a casual customer. If CA just made the same era over and over again there'd be no reason for anyone except a die-hard, loyal (and probably TWC forumer) fan to purchase the sequels. You can imagine them maximising sales in the long run by doing what they're doing.

I still think Total War: Victoria would have been a better business decision to do at this point as its been a while since we had a proper firearms warfare title and as said, it would have a lot of cross-Atlantic appeal.

I agree with you on Victoria Total War (i am a big fan of that timeframe). And i think also that it will be much more popular than other total war games (at least when i talk with other members). For example i only bought Shogun2 for FOTS (and it was on sale on steam) and for modding purposes.
But, what i want is not what others want...so in this case i understand that CA goes that route. There is a lot of potential with that area. China has a vast historic value. So maybe they can take the whole history under the loop. Like early China, Feudal China, Late China and modern China. So than they make a lot of fans happy. Off course, that's what i hope. But, if not, than not. I can concentrate on modding FOTS. FOTS is still a fantastic game for 2018 (graphics and gameplay are just wonderful).

[thesmoosh]

Man I'm loving all this backseat strategizing about a company's business posted by people who clearly have little to no understanding of business, software development, marketing or China, not to mention any actual insight into CA's thinking or decision-making process other than pure speculation.

But please, go right ahead and make these absolute assertions about the internal thinking at CA or pronouncements on how "China" is going to react to a game about which very little is known outside of a trailer and a few public comments.

As if any attempt to predict how a country of 1 billion people is going to react to something wasn't stupid enough, we're doing that without even knowing what that something is...

[Lord Oda Nobunaga]

China doesn't have 1 billion gamers, much less PC gamers. Most of the people who play games in China do so in cafes not on private consoles or computers. I don't know what developing the software has to do with marketing a game in China. Mind giving details as to your point of view.

The point of my comments was that I was saying exactly that we cannot know what China's opinion will be since there are so many risks with regards to dealing in China. There is no predictability for business models.

I am asserting that a large part of CA's motivation was marketing in Asia. While there is no Chinese trailer out yet I think that either way it would be naive to assume that it was not factored into their reasoning.

[caratacus]

Man I'm loving all this backseat strategizing about a company's business posted by people who clearly have little to no understanding of business, software development, marketing or China, not to mention any actual insight into CA's thinking or decision-making process other than pure speculation.

But please, go right ahead and make these absolute assertions about the internal thinking at CA or pronouncements on how "China" is going to react to a game about which very little is known outside of a trailer and a few public comments.

As if any attempt to predict how a country of 1 billion people is going to react to something wasn't stupid enough, we're doing that without even knowing what that something is...

You are plainly saying then that anybody that might have an opinion on the subject is foolish. That's a pretty cheeky interjection in a conversation about the subject. Please bear in mind, that speculation is one first step towards knowledge and wisdom. Whilst foolishness is thinking that you know everything that is already known or told to you.

The lucrative Chinese, market has been targeted by large foreign investors for years and games companies are no different. But China is not like any other country in doing business. Whether or not "Three Kingdoms" is aimed specifically at this market is immaterial. What I am saying is that as the China PC market increasingly grows, the content of all PC games will probably change. Three Kingdoms is important test for SEGA to see how popular a historical based strategy game will fit into that market. My only hope is that compromises will not be made upon game play to play safe. The choice of that period together with the romantic novel based on it, already seems that way to me. I wanted Mongols God dam it!

[napoleonic]

Three Kingdoms has a pretty huge fandom in east asia, and I don't mean just far east but include south east asia, why do you think we have games like dynasty warriors that by now have like 8 iterations and the 9th game is coming soon? there is a market potential here, almost certainly bigger than say a historical inspired games based on south america or african history.

of course another western centric tw game would be the most easiest way to milk the franchise, but I'm glad CA choose a really new setting for once.

[SinisterOmen]

I think it's also the fact that they didn't want to do another game based on Europe, so China was a good choice for "cooling down" Europe a little bit.
I really don't know, was Shogun for instance intended to market heavily in Japan? I suppose that was also the idea, but I certainly did enjoy it.

Going back to game features, I hope they rework and invest a lot more on diplomacy. I think most people who play the campaign in TW games spend at least 80% of the time on the campaign map doing the Empire management side, and only 20% fighting battles.
I hope they bring back things like gifting or trading regions/settlements. Having a better alliance system, forcing allies to actually help each other one way or another: manpower, money, etc. Otherwise the alliance means nothing. Better trade, perhaps making resources like iron essential for the war effort (no iron = no armor or weapons).
And I really hope although I doubt they'll do it, for the old population system to come back.

[ptoss1]

You are plainly saying then that anybody that might have an opinion on the subject is foolish. That's a pretty cheeky interjection in a conversation about the subject. Please bear in mind, that speculation is one first step towards knowledge and wisdom. Whilst foolishness is thinking that you know everything that is already known or told to you.

The lucrative Chinese, market has been targeted by large foreign investors for years and games companies are no different. But China is not like any other country in doing business. Whether or not "Three Kingdoms" is aimed specifically at this market is immaterial. What I am saying is that as the China PC market increasingly grows, the content of all PC games will probably change. Three Kingdoms is important test for SEGA to see how popular a historical based strategy game will fit into that market. My only hope is that compromises will not be made upon game play to play safe. The choice of that period together with the romantic novel based on it, already seems that way to me. I wanted Mongols God dam it!

Koei has been making Three Kingdoms games since before consoles were even legal in China.

[caratacus]

Koei has been making Three Kingdoms games since before consoles were even legal in China.

Based on the novel "Romance of the Three Kingdoms" which is very popular. Hopefully the historical aspect of this time will be depicted more for the first time, as it should be.

Good article on PC Gamer;

What to expect from Total War: Three Kingdoms
Breaking down the history, literature, and legend of Total War’s next era.
http://www.pcgamer.com/what-to-expec...hree-kingdoms/

[Theramines]

Man I'm loving all this backseat strategizing about a company's business posted by people who clearly have little to no understanding of business, software development, marketing or China, not to mention any actual insight into CA's thinking or decision-making process other than pure speculation.

But please, go right ahead and make these absolute assertions about the internal thinking at CA or pronouncements on how "China" is going to react to a game about which very little is known outside of a trailer and a few public comments.

As if any attempt to predict how a country of 1 billion people is going to react to something wasn't stupid enough, we're doing that without even knowing what that something is...

We're chatting and speculating. That's the purpose of this forum.

[ggsimmonds]

Total War: Victoria with a US Civil War day-one DLC would sell like absolute hotcakes on both sides of the Atlantic and would probably have made more money than Three Kingdoms is going to.

I am rather sceptical of the suggestion that CA are trying to break into the Chinese market, or at least, the suggestion that it is one of their primary motivations in choosing the setting. For two main reasons I feel this is unlikely: Chinese censorship throws up way too much risk for a company as large as CA and secondly, there is no track record of games like Total War in China; with all the talk of fantasy elements creeping into this next 'historical title', let's be clear, Total War levels of fantasy-creep are a world of difference to the average level of fantasy depicted in East-Asian 'historically'-themed games and for this reason I believe Three Kingdoms is as likely to succeed in the Chinese market as Shogun 2 was in the Japanese market. No, the real motivation is simply to diversify the franchise for Western audiences by giving casuals an extra theme/era to visit that they haven't experienced before. You have to remember that Total War titles have a very long-tale sales cycle, longer than many others game franchises. People to this day who are thinking of getting into the series for the first time are probably weighing up games as old as Empire against Shogun 2 or Rome 2 - to this day I find Napoleon and Shogun 2 more visually appealing than Rome2, despite being earlier titles. The more eras you have in your lineup the more likely you are to appeal to that customer's niche historical interest. Moreover, the more product variety in a long-tale franchise like Total War, the more likely you are to sell more than one title to a casual customer. If CA just made the same era over and over again there'd be no reason for anyone except a die-hard, loyal (and probably TWC forumer) fan to purchase the sequels. You can imagine them maximising sales in the long run by doing what they're doing.

I still think Total War: Victoria would have been a better business decision to do at this point as its been a while since we had a proper firearms warfare title and as said, it would have a lot of cross-Atlantic appeal.

I disagree. The franchise is called total war and there is a distinct lack of well, wars during the Victorian era lol

I like the era, and I am among the crowd pressuring PDX to announce a Vicky 3, but as a total war setting? Probably one of the worst eras they could pick.