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Thread: New Historical total war era - Total War: Three Kingdoms!

  1. #181

    Default Re: New Historical total war era - Total War: Three Kingdoms!

    Am I the only one here who thinks all you guys stating this to be a fantasy game already are reading too much into this? I mean all we really saw in this game that even approaches something over the top was the heroes taking down multiple guys and having duels with each other. That is not all that much worse then seeing Charlemagne going alone and killing multiple guys in combat like in the DLC trailer years back. If CA are only using historical in the title describing the game then it only tells us they are focused more on a historical theme then turning this into a Warhammer reskin with all it's fantasy elements.

    I mean I hope I am not wrong but seeing as how it's CA they could mean one thing but then go back on it like they have in the past. I would think they would be smart and not waste this opportunity to just go the Dynasty Warrior rout since that would not work for any other historical era in both China or any other historical era they might go to next. Not to mention I see no good reason why anyone would think the DW crowd would even stay on since they are hack and slash fans, why watch a bunch of guys slash through hundreds of people when they could just go back and actually do it themselves in the DW games?
    Last edited by NostalgiaFan; January 14, 2018 at 01:12 AM.

  2. #182
    Settra's Avatar the Imperishable
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    Default Re: New Historical total war era - Total War: Three Kingdoms!

    Let me paraphrase Arch Warhammer here. If this game is indeed intended to be a huge success on the practically infinite Chinese market then it can only be fantasy. China has banned games for a lot less than what a historical three kingdoms game would present. Also the heroes, the units, everything is taken straight out of the romance.

    Not to mention that Liu Bei is a literal god in China and presenting even the extremely idealized version of him we have in most historical records would lead to people screaming bloody murder.


    Not that a game based on the romance would be a bad thing. Oh no no no no no. At leas this way you get unit diversity and intersting characters. Historically three kingdoms china had an even lower unit diversity than sengoku jidai japan. Imagine playing an entire campaign with only spear ashigaru and ashigaru bowmen, and only ever facing those two units.
    Last edited by Settra; January 14, 2018 at 05:01 AM.
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  3. #183
    Anna_Gein's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: New Historical total war era - Total War: Three Kingdoms!

    Quote Originally Posted by NostalgiaFan View Post
    Am I the only one here who thinks all you guys stating this to be a fantasy game already are reading too much into this? I mean all we really saw in this game that even approaches something over the top was the heroes taking down multiple guys and having duels with each other. That is not all that much worse then seeing Charlemagne going alone and killing multiple guys in combat like in the DLC trailer years back. If CA are only using historical in the title describing the game then it only tells us they are focused more on a historical theme then turning this into a Warhammer reskin with all it's fantasy elements.

    I mean I hope I am not wrong but seeing as how it's CA they could mean one thing but then go back on it like they have in the past. I would think they would be smart and not waste this opportunity to just go the Dynasty Warrior rout since that would not work for any other historical era in both China or any other historical era they might go to next. Not to mention I see no good reason why anyone would think the DW crowd would even stay on since they are hack and slash fans, why watch a bunch of guys slash through hundreds of people when they could just go back and actually do it themselves in the DW games?
    It was just a CGI trailer for marketing. We have yet to see any gameplay footage/screenshot or even "in-engine" trailer/screenshot.

  4. #184
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: Total War: THREE KINGDOMS's unit roster Roman mercenary units

    Quote Originally Posted by Gogunbanzui View Post
    Is there any possibility of hiring roman mercenary units like Cohors, Roman Legionaries once you establish trade routes with the Romans for this game?
    This would be really funny, the fantasy in the Warhammer best style.
    BTW, this is an example of a quite widespread view (even among professional archeologists and historian) that has nothing to do with the Silk Road, but with the love of Roman ancient times. Like prof. Peter Brown talks here - people are looking not for the Silk Road in late antiquity, but for the late antiquity in the Silk Road https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4Wi4_oWo_U
    However, I hope that Kingdom of Kroraina will be on the TW3K map.
    Last edited by Jurand of Cracow; January 14, 2018 at 08:33 AM.

  5. #185

    Default Re: New Historical total war era - Total War: Three Kingdoms!

    Quote Originally Posted by Settra View Post
    Let me paraphrase Arch Warhammer here. If this game is indeed intended to be a huge success on the practically infinite Chinese market then it can only be fantasy. China has banned games for a lot less than what a historical three kingdoms game would present. Also the heroes, the units, everything is taken straight out of the romance.

    Not to mention that Liu Bei is a literal god in China and presenting even the extremely idealized version of him we have in most historical records would lead to people screaming bloody murder.

    Not that a game based on the romance would be a bad thing. Oh no no no no no. At leas this way you get unit diversity and intersting characters. Historically three kingdoms china had an even lower unit diversity than sengoku jidai japan. Imagine playing an entire campaign with only spear ashigaru and ashigaru bowmen, and only ever facing those two units.
    First of all, please, never use Arch as a source for anything not Warhammer. His track record is quite frankly terrible.

    To my knowledge, China has not banned any games about the three kingdoms era or anything before the Ming Dynasty. They're really only concerned with games that present viewpoints they could find politically damaging or ideologically opposed. Things like Hearts of Iron got banned for presenting the independence of certain regions of china during the second world war, as well as a not party-approved version of the KMT/CCP conflict and how it played into the war with the Japanese. Presenting the reality of the Three Kingdoms war wouldn't be out of line at all, unless there's a really extreme amount anti-Guan Yu sentiment packed in there, which I heavily doubt, since he's so prominent in the marketing. Portraying him even completely historically would probably not ruffle that many feathers.

    Liu Bei is not a god in Chinese culture. Guan Yu is. You are also vastly overestimating how sensitive people are to his portrayal. While there are certainly fanatics, most people aren't going to go ballistic if he's not idealized. They'll only start raising a fuss if it turns into something really egregiously anti-Guan Yu (depictions of him have varied more and more in Chinese media as time goes on). The historical version of events is getting more and more popular, especially among younger Chinese who make up the gaming market.

    Your last statement is downright wrong. Han Dynasty China has a wide array of unit types and fighting styles as it's an area larger than the size of Western Europe, full of different terrain, climates, culture groups, and military philosophies. Even the most standard Han armies (as in the professional ones equipped strictly according to military regulations near the capitol) have as much or more unit diversity than sengoku jidai japan. That's before you add in all the provincial armies, irregulars, mercenaries, and auxiliaries. Hell, the only things they didn't have that the Shogun 2 factions had was gunpowder units. Furthermore, you have many different bordering kingdoms and tribes that fought both for and against the Three Kingdoms.

  6. #186

    Default Re: New Historical total war era - Total War: Three Kingdoms!

    Quote Originally Posted by NostalgiaFan View Post
    Am I the only one here who thinks all you guys stating this to be a fantasy game already are reading too much into this? I mean all we really saw in this game that even approaches something over the top was the heroes taking down multiple guys and having duels with each other. That is not all that much worse then seeing Charlemagne going alone and killing multiple guys in combat like in the DLC trailer years back. If CA are only using historical in the title describing the game then it only tells us they are focused more on a historical theme then turning this into a Warhammer reskin with all it's fantasy elements.

    I mean I hope I am not wrong but seeing as how it's CA they could mean one thing but then go back on it like they have in the past. I would think they would be smart and not waste this opportunity to just go the Dynasty Warrior rout since that would not work for any other historical era in both China or any other historical era they might go to next. Not to mention I see no good reason why anyone would think the DW crowd would even stay on since they are hack and slash fans, why watch a bunch of guys slash through hundreds of people when they could just go back and actually do it themselves in the DW games?
    No, that's not all we saw. In the trailer we saw the oath of the peach garden





    where supposedly Liu Bei, Zhang Fei and Guan Yu swore to be brothers and die at the same year, month, day and time. However, this is a fictional event that is described in the medieval fantasy novel "Romance of the Three Kingdoms" and never happened historically, as there is no mention of it in the actual historiography that records the events of China at the game's era (2nd and 3rd century C.E.), which is called "Records of the Three Kingdoms".

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oath_of_the_Peach_Garden

    In the same scene we see the weapons that are described in the fantasy novel for the three heroes, not historical Chinese weapons of the era. For example, Guan Yu (the one in green) is depicted wielding the Green Dragon Crescent Blade, which is a fantasy weapon mentioned in the fantasy version. According to Chinese folklore this weapon was magical, as it was made from pieces of the body of a dead green dragon, hence the name.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_...Crescent_Blade

    In reality this is a guandao weapon,



    which according to most historians and sources did not exist until the 11th century C.E. In addition, Guan Yu fought mounted, so using a heavy, unwieldy two-handed polearm as his main weapon while riding is highly unlikely.

    The trailer also finishes with a fictional battle (the battle of Hulao Pass) from the fantasy version, in which the fictional duel of Liu Bei, Zhang Fei and Guan Yu with Lu Bu took place, which is the duel we see at the end. Liu Bei doesn't engage in the trailer, that's why we see a duel of 2 vs 1 and not of 3 vs 1, as described in the fantasy novel.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Hulao_Pass

    I would say that judging by what we've seen and generally know so far, we already have pretty solid evidence that this is the fantasy version, not the historical one. Unless of course the team responsible for the marketing trailers messed up so royally and made a totally misrepresenting trailer, but I find that highly unlikely.
    Last edited by perifanosEllinas; January 14, 2018 at 12:01 PM.

  7. #187

    Default Re: New Historical total war era - Total War: Three Kingdoms!

    Quote Originally Posted by perifanosEllinas View Post
    No, that's not all we saw. In the trailer we saw the oath of the peach garden

    where supposedly Liu Bei, Zhang Fei and Guan Yu swore to be brothers and die at the same year, month, day and time. However, this is a fictional event that is described in the medieval fantasy novel "Romance of the Three Kingdoms" and never happened historically, as there is no mention of it in the actual historiography that records the events of China at the game's era (2nd and 3rd century C.E.), which is called "Records of the Three Kingdoms".

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oath_of_the_Peach_Garden

    In the same scene we see the weapons that are described in the fantasy novel for the three heroes, not historical Chinese weapons of the era. For example, Guan Yu (the one in green) is depicted wielding the Green Dragon Crescent Blade, which is a fantasy weapon mentioned in the fantasy version. According to Chinese folklore this weapon was magical, as it was made from pieces of the body of a dead green dragon, hence the name.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_...Crescent_Blade

    In reality this is a guandao weapon,

    which according to most historians and sources did not exist until the 11th century C.E. In addition, Guan Yu fought mounted, so using a heavy, unwieldy two-handed polearm as his main weapon while riding is highly unlikely.

    The trailer also finishes with a fictional battle (the battle of Hulao Pass) from the fantasy version, in which the fictional duel of Liu Bei, Zhang Fei and Guan Yu with Lu Bu took place, which is the duel we see at the end. Liu Bei doesn't engage in the trailer, that's why we see a duel of 2 vs 1 and not of 3 vs 1, as described in the fantasy novel.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Hulao_Pass

    I would say that judging by what we've seen and generally know so far, we already have pretty solid evidence that this is the fantasy version, not the historical one. Unless of course the team responsible of the marketing trailers messed up so royally and made a totally misrepresenting trailer, but I find that highly unlikely.
    This is just hilarious... Reminds me of this...
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  8. #188
    caratacus's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: New Historical total war era - Total War: Three Kingdoms!

    I must say, I think the announcement of both Total War "The Three Kingdoms" and "Thrones of Britannia" have really been handled badly by CA. We have two games one of which is to be released as early as Spring, which we up to now know very little about save the subject matter and videos. The video of Three Kingdoms was rushed out without any proper presentation, leading to a lot of speculation much of which is negative. In fact this speculation features in very little discussion at all. In previous releases, the TWC forum was full of discussion about the period of the game and what features should be included. I really do think that releasing a video without providing more detailed background information is pointless and counterproductive if you want to generate interest for a game.

  9. #189

    Default Re: New Historical total war era - Total War: Three Kingdoms!

    Quote Originally Posted by caratacus View Post
    I must say, I think the announcement of both Total War "The Three Kingdoms" and "Thrones of Britannia" have really been handled badly by CA. We have two games one of which is to be released as early as Spring, which we up to now know very little about save the subject matter and videos. The video of Three Kingdoms was rushed out without any proper presentation, leading to a lot of speculation much of which is negative. In fact this speculation features in very little discussion at all. In previous releases, the TWC forum was full of discussion about the period of the game and what features should be included. I really do think that releasing a video without providing more detailed background information is pointless and counterproductive if you want to generate interest for a game.
    Everything you said is actually an indication that those two launches have been very badly handled by gamers, not developers.
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  10. #190
    EmperorBatman999's Avatar I say, what, what?
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    Default Re: New Historical total war era - Total War: Three Kingdoms!

    I think it’s inevitable this game will have fantasy elements inspired by Romance. And for marketing purposes, it would only be natural to play into the mythology of the story, as that’s the part most people know.

    It’s inevitable that we will see mythology play a part. We can likely expect the game to use a combination of the novel and straight historiography as sources and stylistic inspiration.

  11. #191
    caratacus's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: New Historical total war era - Total War: Three Kingdoms!

    Quote Originally Posted by Setekh View Post
    Everything you said is actually an indication that those two launches have been very badly handled by gamers, not developers.
    Speculation can be one of two things, positive and optimistic or negative and pessimistic. Most people side on the former, we all want things to be better than they actually are, it's human nature. The fact that it is the latter in this case says a lot about previous releases than those being critical in their expectations. It seems to me a lack of clarity can only make such a situation that much more worse, if you are trying to counter the naysayers.

  12. #192

    Default Re: New Historical total war era - Total War: Three Kingdoms!

    Why are people so upset? Shogun 2 had ninjas and geisha. Rome 2 has flaming pigs and incendiary gates. It's not like Total War has ever been anywhere historical. I'm super psyched for this.


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  13. #193

    Default Re: New Historical total war era - Total War: Three Kingdoms!

    Quote Originally Posted by caratacus View Post
    Speculation can be one of two things, positive and optimistic or negative and pessimistic. Most people side on the former, we all want things to be better than they actually are, it's human nature. The fact that it is the latter in this case says a lot about previous releases than those being critical in their expectations. It seems to me a lack of clarity can only make such a situation that much more worse, if you are trying to counter the naysayers.
    It's been literally not more than a week since the announcement of each game. A lot have been revealed about the Thrones of Britannia, so what you speak of is quite moot for that game. With Three Kingdoms, it's been 4 days and they haven't been keeping you in the dark for weeks or months. You're not supposed to have clarity at this moment. What do you want? For them to dump everything in a week?
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  14. #194
    caratacus's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: New Historical total war era - Total War: Three Kingdoms!

    Quote Originally Posted by Setekh View Post
    It's been literally not more than a week since the announcement of each game. A lot have been revealed about the Thrones of Britannia, so what you speak of is quite moot for that game. With Three Kingdoms, it's been 4 days and they haven't been keeping you in the dark for weeks or months. You're not supposed to have clarity at this moment. What do you want? For them to dump everything in a week?
    Both games have been in development a considerable time, as well you know. The public release of a video should have been undertaken as part of a formal presentation explaining more about the features and how they will differ in terms of game play. Just putting out promotional videos (one of which wasn't very good) is not adequate and as I said, can only feed negative comments, which you really don't want at a games release.

    Here on TWC you have a range of mod teams for Total War which provide detailed previews of their work. They spend a lot of time and effort doing so, because they take pride in their work and want others to share their fun in putting together a mod. I personally think those putting together the original game should be no different in their approach.

  15. #195

    Default Re: New Historical total war era - Total War: Three Kingdoms!

    Quote Originally Posted by caratacus View Post
    Both games have been in development a considerable time, as well you know. The public release of a video should have been undertaken as part of a formal presentation explaining more about the features and how they will differ in terms of game play. Just putting out promotional videos (one of which wasn't very good) is not adequate and as I said, can only feed negative comments, which you really don't want at a games release.

    Here on TWC you have a range of mod teams for Total War which provide detailed previews of their work. They spend a lot of time and effort doing so, because they take pride in their work and want others to share their fun in putting together a mod. I personally think those putting together the original game should be no different in their approach.
    Sigh... What do you think they could do the following months till the release of the game? They have to operate under finite resources. Any proper marketing campaign will use those resources to the max towards release when people actually make the decision to buy the products. As the release date nears you get more info or substance. That's how its been for decades. They're not gonna spoil everything on day one just to please some people. Mods can spoil everything in one go because they're not selling anything. This isn't rocket science...
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  16. #196

    Default Re: New Historical total war era - Total War: Three Kingdoms!

    It's not really my type of era. But i am happy that CA takes it to a totally new area of the game and that is China. I am more a Victorian era guy. But i can see some potential expansions for the game, that can take us to the more modern era like the opium wars or boxer rebellion. China has a vast history. Maybe we could see many expansions that can cover that history.

  17. #197

    Default Re: New Historical total war era - Total War: Three Kingdoms!

    One thing I'm curious to see is how they handle the historical events.

    Will the game push AI factions along a somewhat historical path or will it be a complete sandbox? Previous games have definitely been the latter, but none have taken such inspiration from a novel before.
    Take Shu for example. Liu Bei traveled quite a bit before settling in the Shu lands, and if the people are to be important, at the game start many of the noteworthy figures have yet to make an appearance. Liu Bei's travel's aren't like a horde from previous games, so I'm curious to see how this is handled. At the game start Liu Bei shouldn't even be on the map. If it is a complete sandbox the game will be called Three Kingdoms but there will be almost zero chance of the namesake factions actually rising up.
    Last edited by ggsimmonds; January 14, 2018 at 02:15 PM.

  18. #198
    EireEmerald's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: New Historical total war era - Total War: Three Kingdoms!

    They better have a new engine. And they better have improved voice acting
    (those voices for the barbarian factions in Rome and Attila were embarrassing). I was really hoping for a Renaissance era with Gunpowder and shot but this looks good. Not sure I like this hero battle thing they are insinuating though...

  19. #199

    Default Re: New Historical total war era - Total War: Three Kingdoms!

    Quote Originally Posted by perifanosEllinas View Post
    No, that's not all we saw. In the trailer we saw the oath of the peach garden
    Yeah so what? It's just an oath. If CA want to take some fictional elements that don't seem too unrealistic in the game I am fine with that. It does not tell me they are going full fantasy when most likely they are only taking some popular elements from the novels without going to far into the ridiculous territory.
    Quote Originally Posted by perifanosEllinas View Post
    In the same scene we see the weapons that are described in the fantasy novel for the three heroes, not historical Chinese weapons of the era.
    Oh wow you mean CA is making anachronistic choices with some weapons like they have in previous total wars as recently as with Attila? Does not convince me they are going full fantasy when we see the rest of the troops have what we see to be historically authentic weapons and uniforms. Most likely the Heroes are getting most of the fictional stuff while the rest of the of the units are still trying to be authentic.
    Quote Originally Posted by perifanosEllinas View Post
    The trailer also finishes with a fictional battle (the battle of Hulao Pass) from the fantasy version, in which the fictional duel of Liu Bei, Zhang Fei and Guan Yu with Lu Bu took place, which is the duel we see at the end.
    Yeah yeah we already know they are taking some fictional elements what about it? Nothing in there besides the battle itself being fictional looked like it was going full fantasy. All we see is Lu Bu taking down several unnamed soldiers which is no more unrealistic then my Charlemagne example.
    Quote Originally Posted by perifanosEllinas View Post
    I would say that judging by what we've seen and generally know so far, we already have pretty solid evidence that this is the fantasy version, not the historical one. Unless of course the team responsible for the marketing trailers messed up so royally and made a totally misrepresenting trailer, but I find that highly unlikely.
    And I can say based on what I have seen both from the trailer and your posts is that people are getting way too ahead of themselves because nothing has given me concrete evidence that we are going the fantasy rout and instead it is more incorporating some fictional elements with the historical instead.

    I'll wait for more info before I say whether this title is just going to the rout of Shogun 2 or Warhammer.

  20. #200
    Roma_Victrix's Avatar Gatorade, is it in you?
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    Default Re: New Historical total war era - Total War: Three Kingdoms!

    Quote Originally Posted by Settra View Post
    Let me paraphrase Arch Warhammer here. If this game is indeed intended to be a huge success on the practically infinite Chinese market then it can only be fantasy. China has banned games for a lot less than what a historical three kingdoms game would present. Also the heroes, the units, everything is taken straight out of the romance.
    The heroes certainly are, with their anachronistic weapons like the 11th-century guandao halberd; the soldiers standing around them have rather authentic-looking body armor and helmets for the Eastern Han period, though. I made a post about this further back in this thread, comparing them to pics of actual Han statues and paintings.

    Not to mention that Liu Bei is a literal god in China and presenting even the extremely idealized version of him we have in most historical records would lead to people screaming bloody murder.
    I could be wrong, but aside from ancestral worship of the Liu clan, I don't think anyone in China considers Liu Bei as a deity. That's reserved for his sworn brother Guan Yu.

    Not that a game based on the romance would be a bad thing. Oh no no no no no. At leas this way you get unit diversity and intersting characters. Historically three kingdoms china had an even lower unit diversity than sengoku jidai japan. Imagine playing an entire campaign with only spear ashigaru and ashigaru bowmen, and only ever facing those two units.
    Sorry, but that's completely false. The variety of mounted troops in China by the Eastern Han period included heavy cavalry, light cavalry, horse archers, and chariots (while facing some enemies to the far south who used elephant cavalry). Infantry were armed with swords, spears, dagger-axe pikes and Ji halberds. Archers were equipped with composite bows, whereas crossbowmen had small handheld crossbows as well as the mechanical repeating crossbow.

    That's quite a bit of variety, even long before gunpowder was invented in Song China.

    Quote Originally Posted by NostalgiaFan View Post
    Oh wow you mean CA is making anachronistic choices with some weapons like they have in previous total wars as recently as with Attila? Does not convince me they are going full fantasy when we see the rest of the troops have what we see to be historically authentic weapons and uniforms. Most likely the Heroes are getting most of the fictional stuff while the rest of the of the units are still trying to be authentic.
    I'd rather they keep everything authentic to the time period, but if they can't help themselves but portray the major characters/heroes with anachronistic armor and weapons, then at the very least I don't want to see any of that stuff for the regular soldiers. They should all be equipped with arms and armor that distinctly belong to the Eastern Han and Three Kingdoms era.

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