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Thread: New Historical total war era - Total War: Three Kingdoms!

  1. #601

    Default Re: New Historical total war era - Total War: Three Kingdoms!

    >same old clunky engine
    >CA going full fantasy in what was supposed to be a HISTORICAL title
    >animations, charges, unit weight and combat all look as bad if not even worse than before
    >units using hooks instead of ladders like in empire
    >"classic" mode most likely just an afterthought or even just a rushed idea that came out to calm down the negative feedback hence why the game is even being postponed until 2019
    >the biggest problem is what this means for later "historical" titles that will not even make sense with this lazy "romanticized" excuse like Medieval Europe or the Mongols





    I just caught up with all this info and really, there is not much for me to say that would be different from what others like me have said, just stating how this news is nothing short of disappointing.

  2. #602

    Default Re: New Historical total war era - Total War: Three Kingdoms!

    Quote Originally Posted by perifanosEllinas View Post
    That's exactly what CA did. They promised a historical game, but now they're delivering a fantasy game. No, no, no. It's a fantasy game. It's primarily based on a fantasy novel, it has a fantasy mode as the default campaign, it has fantasy weapons like the ginormous mace of XU Chu (which will probably persist in the classic mode as well, as I don't think CA will bother to equip the characters with different weapons in the two modes) and its mechanics and features are built based primarily on fantasy and not on history, the one hero units and the hero duels are major examples. And let's be completely honest here, they're bringing this concept in from warhammer, a typical fantasy setting. And here is further evidence that they're going full fantasy with this game (full warhammer style): these are photos of the campaign map, taken by people who were there at the E3 presentation... There are no fantasy units in RTW. Head hurlers are not a fantasy unit, they're a historical unit just portrayed totally inaccurately. In reality they were not head hurlers, but head hunters, which means that they didn't throw the heads on their enemies, but collected them as battle trophies and decorated their houses with them instead. The only unit that could possibly be considered fictional (not fantasy) in RTW is wardogs, and whether dogs were actually used in battle in real life is still debatable among professional historians.
    ROTK is not a fantasy novel...it's historical fiction. It's supposed to be 70% facts where the majority of characters and events are historically correct, and it makes up events, characters, relationships, etc as the other 30% fiction. Fantasy would be something like Lord of the Rings that have no connection with reality and takes place in a fictional universe. That screenshot of the campaign map may be recycled Warhammer campaign assets, but it's not inaccurate as it does look like the terrain of Southern China.

    Furthermore, we're using the terms fantasy pretty loosely here. When I posted the Thread about Xu Chu's absurdly gigantic mace, the word fantasy can be interchangeable with something that is grossly exaggerated or extremely historically inaccurate. There were actual smaller maces for battle and very large maces depicted by art (probably for training and not practical for combat), but the latter didn't look ridiculous huge like that one.

    Similarly, as I pointed out in past threads, RTW's Head Hurlers are probably on the same level of gross exaggeration and extreme inaccuracy to be considered fantasy when the word is used loosely. Not only were heads never never actually thrown, but the head hurler's thrown heads have an impact force of small grenades that do more damage than every other non-artillery missile weapon out there. You can easily decimate a unit of Praetorians in testudo formation with head hurlers.

    Above that level of ridiculousness would be RTW's Amazonian chariot women, giant 100 foot oliphaunts in the corner of the map. These are clearly derived from Greek myths and fantasy (Amazon chariot women) or extreme fiction that defies physics or logic (100 foot elephants). The head hurler's magical thrown heads that do an insane amounts of damage do seem to defy physics or common sense too.

    Slightly below that level of craziness would be fictional Roman ninjas. This are totally fictional, and are ridiculous. The super firefighters are also nonsense, but not as stupid as the ninjas since they just look like Praetorians v2. Below that would be extremely anachronistic Egyptians...
    So comparison of gross exaggerations, it'd be like this:


    Xu Chu's stupid looking mace as big as his torso = roughly comparable to magical head hurlers with heads that do more damage than javelins
    Lu Bu wearing 1000 year anachronistic plated chainmail = comparable to anachronistic 1000 year Egyptians
    If they included ancient Chinese heavy cavalry wearing 15th Gothic European plate armor = comparable to RTW's Roman ninjas
    If they decided to make Chinese policemen (prefects) stronger than Wei's Tiger Knights, then that would be comparable to the Urban Cohort super fire fighers.
    So far, nothing 100% Age of Mythology inspired stuff like Amazonians or 100 foot elephants.
    Last edited by Intranetusa; June 26, 2018 at 05:25 PM.

  3. #603

    Default Re: New Historical total war era - Total War: Three Kingdoms!

    Quote Originally Posted by herne_the _hunter View Post
    Checkout OfficiallyDevins vid about the the voice acting in 3KTW issues. Note : try not to be drinking whilst watching this you'll get fluid all over your monitor.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kAvqBrvKph0

    Serious point is if you are going to use English voice actors for the all of the ancient Chinese then why not use Scottish, Welsh or Irish as well to thematically represent the diversity of characters if they are not speaking actual Chinese. See it all starts to get abit ridiculous as a badly over dubbed martial arts film.
    If they're going to use all English voice actors, then they should've stuck with the posh British accent from the first trailer back in January rather than this weird fake broken English accent.

  4. #604
    AnthoniusII's Avatar XXI ARMORED BRIGADE
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    Default Re: New Historical total war era - Total War: Three Kingdoms!

    Quote Originally Posted by NostalgiaFan View Post
    >same old clunky engine
    >CA going full fantasy in what was supposed to be a HISTORICAL title
    >animations, charges, unit weight and combat all look as bad if not even worse than before
    >units using hooks instead of ladders like in empire
    >"classic" mode most likely just an afterthought or even just a rushed idea that came out to calm down the negative feedback hence why the game is even being postponed until 2019
    >the biggest problem is what this means for later "historical" titles that will not even make sense with this lazy "romanticized" excuse like Medieval Europe or the Mongols
    Fantasy will allow AI to smash Walls or gates and assault cities.
    The most interesting features is the hooks. Remember that in Shogun II 2 or more AI controled armies stormed on walls climbing on them without the need of siege engines or to bring down walls.
    This solution was chosen because CA/SEGA developers are in capable to find similar solutions in sieges like in RTW-1 or M2TW ! So "hooks" was the best way to avoid the humiliation they suffered with walls melting down by rain or time in Attila! They try to save their dignity by avoiding the same mistakes knowing that they can not find solutions anymore.
    There are moments (in history), in which a nation owes,
    if it wants to be considered as a great one, to be able to fight.
    Even without hope of winning. Just because it has to.
    Greek War motto.
    XXI Armored Brigade. Proud that served in that unit in 1996!
    "Spartans do not ask how many (enemies are) but where they are"!
    XXI Armored Brigade's motto.
    The Greek Secret (or why they will fight again if it will be necessary or why they do not sell their history).


  5. #605

    Default Re: New Historical total war era - Total War: Three Kingdoms!

    Quote Originally Posted by Lionheart11 View Post
    would be suprized if those screen shots r legit
    They look rather legit. But of course, with the release, they'll change

  6. #606
    The Wandering Storyteller's Avatar Content Staff
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    Default Re: New Historical total war era - Total War: Three Kingdoms!

    Quote Originally Posted by AnthoniusII View Post
    Fantasy will allow AI to smash Walls or gates and assault cities.
    The most interesting features is the hooks. Remember that in Shogun II 2 or more AI controled armies stormed on walls climbing on them without the need of siege engines or to bring down walls.
    This solution was chosen because CA/SEGA developers are in capable to find similar solutions in sieges like in RTW-1 or M2TW ! So "hooks" was the best way to avoid the humiliation they suffered with walls melting down by rain or time in Attila! They try to save their dignity by avoiding the same mistakes knowing that they can not find solutions anymore.
    Deleted post.





















































  7. #607

    Default Re: New Historical total war era - Total War: Three Kingdoms!

    Total War Three Kingdoms is going to be epic! Can't wait. Though personally, I would prefer a Total War game not to be created in a time period before Total War Attila. Rome II was pushing it, but graphics and gameplay substituted for the lack of excitement(In some cases). Moving Total War to the end of Han Dynasty China seems a little desperate, almost if they are running out of time periods to create a Total War game in...

  8. #608

    Default Re: New Historical total war era - Total War: Three Kingdoms!

    Rome Total War and Rome II are some of CA's most popular games(with R2 even after it's massive launch controversy). Also, Third century China is not the same at all as Rome or Atilla in terms of setting. Taking place concurrently does not mean they are the same. This setting should be a breath of fresh air for many ultimately

  9. #609

    Default Re: New Historical total war era - Total War: Three Kingdoms!

    Hope its good but I think we all would like to see them making advances in some of the gameplay mechanics like diplomacy, AI and espionage.

    Actually just started playing Shogun 2 again and had totally forgot about the little movies it played when you tried to do an assassination. They should have kept all those cool little immersive ideas and just kept adding to the game instead of taking stuff away.

  10. #610
    Civis
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    Default Re: New Historical total war era - Total War: Three Kingdoms!

    3rd kingdoms look great it may be the 1st TW game I try since Shogun 2, outside Arena open beta. Chinese history and fantasy and kung-fu are some of the best in the world. Not sure I will have a computer great enought to play it, but maybe before 2025 if Im still alive or if the planet didnt explode before.

  11. #611
    SturmChurro's Avatar Not Vault Boy
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    Default Re: New Historical total war era - Total War: Three Kingdoms!

    Quote Originally Posted by Athos187 View Post
    Hope its good but I think we all would like to see them making advances in some of the gameplay mechanics like diplomacy, AI and espionage.

    Actually just started playing Shogun 2 again and had totally forgot about the little movies it played when you tried to do an assassination. They should have kept all those cool little immersive ideas and just kept adding to the game instead of taking stuff away.
    Right? What ever happened to those videos. They were awesome!

  12. #612
    Daruwind's Avatar Citizen
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    Default Re: New Historical total war era - Total War: Three Kingdoms!

    New blogpost with info/differencies between romance and classic mode:
    https://www.totalwar.com/blog/total-...t-classic-mode
    Our next major historical title, Total War: THREE KINGDOMS, features two modes: Classic Mode (predominantly based on the historical text Records of the Three Kingdoms) and Romance of the Three Kingdoms Mode (inspired by the 14th century historical epic of the same name).

    Classic Mode is everything you’ve come to expect from eighteen years of historical Total War: a commitment to historical authenticity, grand-scale conquest, empire management, and the struggle for ultimate military control at the heart of one of history’s greatest conflicts. It’s based on what the historians say happened in Three Kingdoms China, but with the trademark Total War sandbox systems enabling you to guide and rewrite events.

    Romance Mode is where things get a little different for the series – but not wildly so. If you’re unfamiliar with Romance of the Three Kingdoms, it’s a cornerstone of Asian culture and widely viewed as one of China’s four great classic novels. It still depicts the actual events, conflicts and political narrative of the period, but with embellishments and embroideries dialling the epic up to 11, as characters perform legendary deeds in both the stateroom and the midst of battle. And yes, you should totally read it.

    While Romance Mode is based on this romanticised vision of history, there’s a lot of fine detail that the novel doesn’t cover. For example, the novel doesn’t delve into the architecture of the period, the minutiae of Chinese culture at that time, or the specifics of how armies are organised and formed, which are all key aspects in establishing a feeling of authenticity for the next deep and rich Total War sandbox. In such instances we’ve made design choices based on what the more formal histories say, along with advice from our historical consultant, Rafe De Crespigny. So in many areas of gameplay, Romance Mode is actually a more historically grounded experience than you might expect.

    Character theatrics aside, our interpretations of the nuts and bolts of ancient Chinese conquest are very similar in both modes. The real difference between the two is the level of emphasis each places on certain features, while reducing the focus on others.

    In Classic Mode for example, battle outcomes are decided principally by how you control your army, with individual heroes appearing as regular mortals and having minimal physical impact. As a result, your heroes have a different level of importance in campaign. In Romance Mode, battle outcomes can be heavily influenced by heroes. This means they have greater value to your armies, and in turn they’ll play a more prominent role in your campaign. So Classic mode is all about tactics and statecraft, while Romance is more about personal bravado and individual martial prowess.

    Having a condensed list of fundamental tweaks like this allows us to give each mode a distinct feel while staying true to our different angles of source material. And speaking of the specific differences, we’ve noticed a few recurring questions being asked about Classic Mode, so hopefully the following will offer some clarity.

    1. Will heroes use historically authentic equipment in Classic Mode?
    In Classic Mode, 3D character models will use historically authentic weapons and period-correct armour. However, 2D Character art will keep a slightly stylised flavour with characters wearing more flamboyant clothing, but we will remove the out of period chainmail and ceremonial weapons to reinforce the historical authenticity of the mode. Having more distinctive 2D art for each character is important to help players pick out who is who in the heat of battle. If hero unit cards all show them wearing similar armour and clothing, that becomes a much harder job.

    2. Will heroes be single-unit entities in Classic Mode?

    Nope, they fight on the battlefield with a retinue of bodyguards surrounding them like generals in previous historical Total War games. As these characters are only human, they can be killed if left exposed, so you’ll need to protect them if you want them to survive a battle.

    3. Will Hero combat abilities feature in Classic Mode?

    No, these abilities are drawn based on each character’s romanticised exploits, and aren’t present in the historical texts. A quick example is Xu Chu – based on his depiction as an indomitable brute with incredible strength, in Romance Mode he has an AoE attack ability called Earth Shattering Strike, which he doesn’t have in Classic Mode.

    4. Will duels feature in Classic Mode?
    Yes, but they work differently to how they do in Romance Mode and follow the historical references we have for single combat. Firstly, they happen much more organically than in Romance Mode: rather than choosing a duel option, a duel can break out between two heroes whenever they clash on the battlefield. Secondly, as heroes are not single entity units in Classic Mode, when two heroes duel, their two retinues of bodyguards will clash too. The clashing bodyguards will encircle the heroes and face off while the duel takes place. Thirdly, as heroes won’t have special combat abilities, there is less focus placed on the actions you take during a duel, and more emphasis placed on how you manage the rest of your army while the duel takes place.

    5. Will Classic Mode affect battle pacing?
    Typically yes, battles will be slower-paced on average. Without powerful single-entity heroes to carve through enemy frontlines, disrupt formations or pin down stronger units, the pace will be different and will allow you more time to think of your next move on the battlefield. Additionally, fatigue will play a greater role in Classic Mode where troops will tire more easily.

    There’ll still be quick battles – when one side vastly outnumbers the other for example – but on average, battles will last longer in Classic mode.

    6. Will Classic Mode suffer somehow compared to Romance Mode?
    We’re seeing some concern that somehow Classic Mode won’t be “done right” due to Romance Mode. Rest assured Classic is a complete historical Total War experience. If we weren’t doing a Romance Mode, Classic would be the Ancient China TW game we’d be releasing.


    But the Romance of the Three Kingdoms is such an epic source of inspiration, how could we not add in a way of playing the game that celebrates it?

    Worth noting that the visuals and code we will be sharing on the run up to launch will typically be taken from Romance Mode, but we will be showing plenty of Classic Mode let’s plays, live streams and information on both modes as we get closer to launch.

    TL;DR: Classic Mode is more a game of statecraft, Romance Mode is more a game about characters.

  13. #613

    Default Re: New Historical total war era - Total War: Three Kingdoms!

    Well my thanks to the art team for putting in the effort to make two versions of everyone. I honestly wouldn't have complained too much if the anachronistic armaments on the heroes made it into Classic mode, so long as their bodyguards weren't swanning about in it too, but the effort is appreciated.

  14. #614

    Default Re: New Historical total war era - Total War: Three Kingdoms!

    People complain about removing features so they can be sold as DLC. But having two separate modes at release especially with CA's history is going to be a disaster. The should just make one mode first. Any mode. But then again the game will still be a mess at release.

  15. #615
    JackDionne's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: New Historical total war era - Total War: Three Kingdoms!

    Quote Originally Posted by Ngazi View Post
    People complain about removing features so they can be sold as DLC. But having two separate modes at release especially with CA's history is going to be a disaster. The should just make one mode first. Any mode. But then again the game will still be a mess at release.
    I am hoping you are wrong.
    3K needs to have an Avatar Campaign!!! Records mode for ranked battles!

  16. #616
    Daruwind's Avatar Citizen
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    Default Re: New Historical total war era - Total War: Three Kingdoms!

    Quote Originally Posted by Ngazi View Post
    People complain about removing features so they can be sold as DLC. But having two separate modes at release especially with CA's history is going to be a disaster. The should just make one mode first. Any mode. But then again the game will still be a mess at release.
    Actually what features were ever stripped to be sold as standalone DLC? I mean faction yes, units yes but looking at evolution of DLCs across many years, of course CA did some mistakes but looks like they are learning from it at least about DLC content.

    For example now all units,factions are there for AI to use, player must play only to play it.
    Day 1 DLC also are no more, instead preorder are like Norsca
    More and more free content alongside the paid content - Prime example is not Rome 2 Ancestral Update..

    And now look back at very first DLC like those for Empire,Napoleon. Faction without any new mechanics, just retexture units..

    Only possible idea is,if for example somebody expected WH to be one game, all DLC, Mortal Empire even WH3 in one game for 60 bucks...and with Naval combat.

  17. #617
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    Default Re: New Historical total war era - Total War: Three Kingdoms!

    I mean faction yes, units yes
    Ahh yes so only two of the most important parts of a TW game....
    Elder Scrolls Online :Messing up the Lore since 2007...

    Well overhand or underhand: 3:50 Onwards...

  18. #618
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    Default Re: New Historical total war era - Total War: Three Kingdoms!

    Quote Originally Posted by Sint View Post
    Ahh yes so only two of the most important parts of a TW game....
    And two parts that are easily moddable...faction unlocker and units are like the most common kind of mod. Okey, so this discussion is now about DLC vs old expansion packs style and you are saying CA should sell WH1+2 plus all dlc factions,units for 60 bucks and of course clever player will wait for sale on steam for WH1+2+3 for 20 bucks ;-) Dream on..

  19. #619
    Huberto's Avatar Praepositus
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    Default Re: New Historical total war era - Total War: Three Kingdoms!

    1. Will heroes use historically authentic equipment in Classic Mode?
    In Classic Mode, 3D character models will use historically authentic weapons and period-correct armour. However, 2D Character art will keep a slightly stylised flavour with characters wearing more flamboyant clothing, but we will remove the out of period chainmail and ceremonial weapons to reinforce the historical authenticity of the mode. Having more distinctive 2D art for each character is important to help players pick out who is who in the heat of battle. If hero unit cards all show them wearing similar armour and clothing, that becomes a much harder job.
    But if there aren't silly combat abilities or weapons that can turn the tide of battle, then why then is it so important in this game to "pick out who is who in the heat of battle?" Normally we see what a unit can do because it's marked as a retinue of bodyguards, not who the hero is that leads it?



    4. Will duels feature in Classic Mode?
    Yes, but they work differently to how they do in Romance Mode and follow the historical references we have for single combat. Firstly, they happen much more organically than in Romance Mode: rather than choosing a duel option, a duel can break out between two heroes whenever they clash on the battlefield. Secondly, as heroes are not single entity units in Classic Mode, when two heroes duel, their two retinues of bodyguards will clash too. The clashing bodyguards will encircle the heroes and face off while the duel takes place. Thirdly, as heroes won’t have special combat abilities, there is less focus placed on the actions you take during a duel, and more emphasis placed on how you manage the rest of your army while the duel takes place.
    I appreciate the explanation, but...is this really necessary from the historical record, i.e. worth the trouble?

  20. #620

    Default Re: New Historical total war era - Total War: Three Kingdoms!

    Quote Originally Posted by Huberto View Post
    But if there aren't silly combat abilities or weapons that can turn the tide of battle, then why then is it so important in this game to "pick out who is who in the heat of battle?" Normally we see what a unit can do because it's marked as a retinue of bodyguards, not who the hero is that leads it?
    I appreciate the explanation, but...is this really necessary from the historical record, i.e. worth the trouble?
    That seems to be arguing for the sake of arguing... If they make the unit cards too subtle people whine. If they try to make things obvious they whine. Amazing. You're asking if its really necessary that two generals getting close to each other in the heat of the battle would desire and go for the other general's kill? Sigh...
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