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Thread: New Historical total war era - Total War: Three Kingdoms!

  1. #1081
    Abdülmecid I's Avatar ¡Ay Carmela!
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    Default Re: New Historical total war era - Total War: Three Kingdoms!

    Grace's comment is in direct contradiction with their previous statement, according to which, the next DLC (Yellow Turbans/Liand Province rebellion) after the October update would be released ''over the next year''. To be honest, what Grace said is much more reasonable, as I was really surprised that no DLC for their most recent tent-pole title would be released in autumn, although I understand that Three Kingdom's retention rates proved to be rather disappointing. I wonder whether the next chapter pack is going to be less controversial than the Eight Princes. In my opinion, these mini-campaigns suffer from the same inadequacies their Warhammer colleagues did, as they are neither as interesting as the main campaign nor do they offer a unique enough experience to justify positive feedback.

    Moreover, they give quite a negative impression to the community, when contrasted with the original campaign, which has been already severely criticized for its lack of content and variety, especially in the desolate south. I still insist that this business model was not not a correct decision from Creative Assembly, unless of course the company discovers a truly iconic and familiar episode of the Romance epic, but, even such case can only occur once and do not constitute a viable strategy on the long term. The older plan of mixing extravagant units, exotic cultures and focused campaigns seemed more profitable and efficient.

  2. #1082
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    Default Re: New Historical total war era - Total War: Three Kingdoms!

    I bought Eight Princes and it is standard DLC, nothing exceptional so I fully understand the backlash. I think the delay is cause by possible reshuffling of DLCs. I don´t mind exploring other settings than Three Kingdoms period but many probably are looking just for that one. And fully agree current problem of 3K is lack of content. Map is good canvas, it will just take time to fill/paint it like in case of Warhammer. :/

  3. #1083

    Default Re: New Historical total war era - Total War: Three Kingdoms!

    I think the 3K team is trying to emulate the RoTK games a bit too hard. Chapter Packs are something that was ironically widely requested among the followers of the game prior to release because people had gotten used to multiple start dates from RoTK. Now, people don't want them anymore and I have to imagine there are some producers in CA's back office who are totally mystified as to why people suddenly don't want them anymore.

    The core of the issue is that Total War and RoTK are very different game series despite being both in the strategy genre. RoTK is all about its characters and events, whereas Total War has army management and tactics. RoTK is scenario based, while Total War is a sandbox. Trying to endlessly catch up to RoTK is a doomed mission. The RoTK series has had 20 years to build up its formula, and Total War players have different expectations. Attempting to chase RoTK will just lead to unflattering comparisons. The designers need to take a hard look at what is and is not working at the Total War level before trying to import more stuff from RoTK.

    I don't think Eight Princes was a bad DLC, especially not for its low price point, but I definitely felt like it came at the wrong time with the wrong scope, and that the current post launch support is indicative of the team's uncertainty of what the design goals for the game are.
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  4. #1084
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    Default Re: New Historical total war era - Total War: Three Kingdoms!

    Quote Originally Posted by Abdülmecid I View Post
    Grace's comment is in direct contradiction with their previous statement, according to which, the next DLC (Yellow Turbans/Liand Province rebellion) after the October update would be released ''over the next year''. To be honest, what Grace said is much more reasonable, as I was really surprised that no DLC for their most recent tent-pole title would be released in autumn, although I understand that Three Kingdom's retention rates proved to be rather disappointing.
    I'm a bit confused why you're saying Grace's comments that they'll be releasing a "new 3K DLC before the end of this year," contradicts the earlier statement that "over the next year though, we’ll be visiting the era of the Yellow Turban Rebellion and Liang Province rebellion, and then the clash of Cao Cao vs Lü Bu in the central plains."

    I think you may have misunderstood the earlier statement. "Over the next year" doesn't mean in 2020, it means over the course of the coming year (in this case roughly the 12 months September 2019 to September 2020.) So unless I'm missing something, I don't see any evidence that this is a "direct contradiction" or a change in their plans, but rather Grace's comment gives us a narrower window for the new content within the original 12 month or so window.

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  5. #1085
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    Default Re: New Historical total war era - Total War: Three Kingdoms!

    I think CA is between a rock and a hard place. They created a game based on a fantasy novel, which means any DLC that builds on that will simply be based on that same era. I do not think the DLCs will be appealing. If they do not want to explore new time periods in China, which will mean a none fictional account, the next best alternative is to improve the mechanics of the game or at the very least flush out the records mode. A DLC that does the latter will probably sell extremely well, but I am obviously impartial.

    I really wish CA would learn to perfect the mechanics within a game so that they work better and find a more user friendly way of developing characters within a game. The internal politics concept is a cool mechanic, but it is so poorly executed and it generally takes nearly a fan riot to get them to actually do anything. Generally the changes are like a pendulum; one extreme to the next. It almost comes across has a cheeky vindictive change rather a genuine change for the better.

    As long as China is driving sales i doubt any changes will be contemplated. If Troy bombs, then maybe they may reassess their current direction.
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  6. #1086

    Default Re: New Historical total war era - Total War: Three Kingdoms!

    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance View Post
    I think CA is between a rock and a hard place. They created a game based on a fantasy novel, which means any DLC that builds on that will simply be based on that same era. I do not think the DLCs will be appealing. If they do not want to explore new time periods in China, which will mean a none fictional account, the next best alternative is to improve the mechanics of the game or at the very least flush out the records mode. A DLC that does the latter will probably sell extremely well, but I am obviously impartial.
    Eight Princes wasn't part of the novel, as there is basically no mainstream fictional adaptation of the fall of Western Jin. They went entirely off historical texts and analysis (likely Military Aspects of the War of the Eight Princes, 300 - 307 by Edward Dreyer as one blogger noticed) so they're certainly willing to explore other eras. I just don't think that there's interest in alternate scenarios. Most people on both sides of the Pacific seem to want the Grand Campaign to be fleshed out first and foremost. Putting more start dates, even within the bounds of the novel, is not going to address the complaints of a lot of the core audience.
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    Default Re: New Historical total war era - Total War: Three Kingdoms!

    Quote Originally Posted by zoner16 View Post
    Eight Princes wasn't part of the novel, as there is basically no mainstream fictional adaptation of the fall of Western Jin. They went entirely off historical texts and analysis (likely Military Aspects of the War of the Eight Princes, 300 - 307 by Edward Dreyer as one blogger noticed) so they're certainly willing to explore other eras. I just don't think that there's interest in alternate scenarios. Most people on both sides of the Pacific seem to want the Grand Campaign to be fleshed out first and foremost. Putting more start dates, even within the bounds of the novel, is not going to address the complaints of a lot of the core audience.
    I never intimated that it was. I stated they are committed to historical fiction and remaining within the context of that era.
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  8. #1088

    Default Re: New Historical total war era - Total War: Three Kingdoms!

    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance View Post
    I never intimated that it was. I stated they are committed to historical fiction and remaining within the context of that era.
    I guess what I'm getting at is that if they're able to do Eight Princes within the context of the 3K game design, they can do basically anything prior to at least the Song Dynasty, as there's about the same amount of "historical fiction" in those eras as there are in the War of the Eight Princes.
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  9. #1089
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    Default Re: New Historical total war era - Total War: Three Kingdoms!

    I understand what you are saying, but IMO, creating games in and around the 3K period is going to inundate the fan base the same way ToB was a bad idea after Attila (inc; Charlemagne DLC). Moreover, any period they did would be done through a "Romantic" lens since that is the angle they are pushing despite the historical context. They should fully develop the "Records" mode for the base game, then move o to other time periods. In this way they have a base in which t develop both modes. However, they need to explore the totality of Chinese history. It would be best that they jump around and then later revisit the 3k period. In that way, it will seem like a fresh approach. <- Maybe this is more clear than before.
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    Default Re: New Historical total war era - Total War: Three Kingdoms!

    I cannot give advice to CA, just state my opinion. I did not buy 3K as I have zero interest in Chinese history and the period, so I have less then zero interest in the DLCs, but from my experience with S2TW (still regretting to have bought the game and the DLCs ...) or R2TW, campaign DLCs suck for me, because of the restricted focus and almost similar mechanics compared to the original campaign. I prefer DLCs for the main campaign, like faction or unit packs. I bought the R2TW Peloponnesian War DLC only for one reason, because it contained a barefoot soldier model, which could be used for the main game too.

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    Default Re: New Historical total war era - Total War: Three Kingdoms!

    New 3K DLC entry was added into SteamDB
    https://steamdb.info/app/779340/dlc/

  12. #1092

    Default Re: New Historical total war era - Total War: Three Kingdoms!

    Interesting. Must mean that they are planning to unveil their next DLC relatively soon! I think it will probably be coming around mid november, they still have to give time for the Warhammer dlc to release after all which I expect will be in mid December, and I can't see it releasing any later than the 20th of December which is friday. So I expect that the next 3K dlc will be sometime in November and possibly even announced next week.

  13. #1093
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    Default Re: New Historical total war era - Total War: Three Kingdoms!

    Imo the main problem with the Eight Princes DLC is how quickly it was released after the main game. It was far too early and felt very much like a scam.

    I mean come on, I had not the time yet to finish a single campaign. In fact I just managed to complete my first main campaign today with Sun Jian's faction.

    I rather not comment on whether Eight Princes had enough content to justify a post release buy or if this kind of low cost / limited content campaign dlc can work. But I definitively feel like CA is pumping too many DLCs too quickly. Especially considering the DLCs releases on all main titles & the upcoming games.

  14. #1094
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    Default Re: New Historical total war era - Total War: Three Kingdoms!

    Personally, I view DLCs as an inherently shady business practice, but I doubt that the majority of the Total War community share my concerns. In fact, sometimes it's the opposite, as Creative Assembly faced serious backlash in 2018 over how "rarely" they released paid content for Warhammer II. Previous Total War games, like Rome II, were also accompanied by DLC packs from the very beginning. Attila must be the champion in this regard, because, during its infancy, apart from the pre-order bonus and the blood transaction, there were also the Longbeards and Celts DLCs, released in the first month (March) after the tent-pole game was published (February). I still believe that the main mistake with Three Kingdoms was CA's weird decision to focus on the chapters, concerning otherwise obscure phases of Chinese history, while the map of the original game is so obviously stripped of content. It's just too provocative, similarly to how the snake-catapults of the Beasts DLC was almost unanimously perceived as an insult directed towards otherwise loyal customers.
    Quote Originally Posted by Welsh Dragon View Post
    I think you may have misunderstood the earlier statement. "Over the next year" doesn't mean in 2020, it means over the course of the coming year (in this case roughly the 12 months September 2019 to September 2020.) So unless I'm missing something, I don't see any evidence that this is a "direct contradiction" or a change in their plans, but rather Grace's comment gives us a narrower window for the new content within the original 12 month or so window.
    English is not my mother language, so it's perfectly possible that I'm missing something, but, in my opinion, "over the next year" is a clear reference to the next and not current year (2020 and 2019 respectively). As far as I understand, the earlier statement suffers from faulty syntax. Presumably, the author's intention was to link the "over the next year" phrase with the Nanman DLC and not the one to be announced this week and sold in November.

  15. #1095
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    Default Re: New Historical total war era - Total War: Three Kingdoms!

    I think factions DLCs and Campaign DLCs are too different beasts.

    Factions DLCs are usually unpopular when they are released shortly after the main game. As I remember people were unhappy about Attila with how half the map was filled with generic Germanic factions in before their dedicated DLC.

    My point was releasing a campaign DLC that quickly is a next level of shady business. Precisely I would have understood if CA released DLCs for the main campaign (be it faction DLC or an other format more akin to Paradox's DLCs). I was more shocked by how CA seemed to abandon the Three Kingdoms campaign than anything else. And I think I would have felt the same even if Eight Princes had far more content.

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    Default Re: New Historical total war era - Total War: Three Kingdoms!

    Paradox have a far better policy with DLCs. They also release free content along with them. More often than not, they had more elements to the game, thus adding more depth to the game-play. CA conversely, tends to add more factions. That being said, paradox often have stale generic traits for many factions in which some of them are enhance by DLCs. CA campaign stuff tends to be more of the same but in a different setting. It is often limited in scope and play-ability. If the DLCs adds a different time frame that is whole different from the base game, then it is somewhat tolerable. (e.g. AoC). Too often, it is just a different setting but same old choices.
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    Default Re: New Historical total war era - Total War: Three Kingdoms!

    I have double checked the release date of main titles and their first campaign DLC :

    - TW Rome 2 was released on the 2nd September 2013. Caesar in Gaul was released on the 17th December 2013. ---> 3 months and 15 days between the main game and the first campaign DLC.
    - TW Atilla was released on the 17th February 2015. The Last Roman was released on the 25th June 2015. ---> 4 months and 8 days between the main game and the first campaign DLC.
    - TW Warhammer was released on the 24th May 2016. Call of the Beastmen was released on the 28th July 2016. ---> 2 months and 2 days between the main game and the first campaign DLC.

    - TW Three Kingdoms was released on the 23rd May 2019. Eight Princes was released on the 8th August 2019. ---> 2 months and 16 days between the main game and the first campaign.

    Conclusion : While CA releases its Campaign DLCs a little more quickly after the main game, the difference is not that great. I guess it is just me feeling indifferent, fatigued, with how many content, main game or DLCs, that CA pumps out these days as if they was no tomorrow.

    I feel the same about Paradox : too many games, too many DLCs.

    As to who has the best DLC policy ? Nobody imo. Paradox's policy was good when it released Crusader Kings and followed it with a couple of DLCs that unlocked new cultures which were not the theme of the main game. Past The Old Gods DLC it went to and the game lost its focus to instead feel like a EU mod. EU IV DLC policy have always been incomprehensible and feeling shoddy. As Hearts of Iron IV, I do not like either given how they are now re-working on the main factions of the original vanilla game. I think a large issue with Paradox is how their game loose their focus and their theme as the DLCs are mass produced. CK2 and EUIV vanilla felt more convincing while both game feel very messing now.

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    Default Re: New Historical total war era - Total War: Three Kingdoms!

    Of all of the Paradox games, HOI4 seems to have the best approach to DLCs. While TFV and DaD were less than stellar, they presented a consistent approach. The La Resistance looks like atrue DLC that will a great deal more game-play to the game. CA just doesn't do that in their DLC. They never add another layer of complexity to the game. They only change time frame and add factions.

    Just a small note, CK2 did pass its prime and they smartly are releasing CK3 with the newer engine. They already commented how the DLCs became bloated. EU4 is working on a new mercenary mechanic. I personally do not like the current one, so I am hopeful. They also added more to East Asia game-play recently. These are things CA just do not do with their games.
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  19. #1099
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    Default Re: New Historical total war era - Total War: Three Kingdoms!

    For example Wh(s) are praised for their DLC/FLC content and those game set new quality bar. Still after a few months there is some kind of hickup like...DLC pace for Wh1 was too fast, for Wh2 is too slow, Norsca up. So it is more about how CA hit the mood..

    The 3K trully suffer only from wrong order. More content for main campaign would probably get higher praise but maybe CA needed more time for testing or whatever or switched order or at least two DLCs...I thought I saw some interesting depot shuffle in SteamDB some time ago. But that is just my estimation... I can understand getting campaign out quickly as players are the best beta testers. If you think about long run...i think it is possible some content might be added even into 8P campaign. If not, it will be shame...i´m talking about bandits, a few new units here or there or factions for border regions...

    Anyway more chapter packs are what people wants and reson is looking at Wh2 and ME especially. CA really hit nail with content there.

    Paradox games are different beasts. Like campaign side of thing is way better but battles? And speaking aboud DLC policy I´m sorry but my experience with CK2 and its DLCs. Selling unit sprites, music...I know it is optional. Plus whole sheer amount of DLCs.. I would simply say we must judge both companies and all games piece by piece. Like CK2 is great, WH2 is great, imperator got many hits as 3K got butboth those games are not yet done...

  20. #1100

    Default Re: New Historical total war era - Total War: Three Kingdoms!

    CA's DLC policy has been changing as of late to follow on from Paradox's. Rome 2's last major content releases were accompanied by free patches that changed and added various systems and the Warhammer 2 DLCs have been accompanied by Old World race overhauls. Honestly, in a certain sense I do prefer CA's DLC policy because for the most part, you can play the base game campaigns to (mostly) their fullest extent without feeling like part of it is gimped behind a paywall. DLC factions don't vanish from the map if you haven't bought them, so you can still fight against them; you just can't play their campaign. In fact, even if you don't buy a particular DLC for Warhammer, you still tend to benefit from the changes that DLC has to the campaign. Playing Order of Loremasters at launch was a much less exciting experience than playing them now, even if you have no DLC.

    Quote Originally Posted by Daruwind View Post
    The 3K trully suffer only from wrong order. More content for main campaign would probably get higher praise but maybe CA needed more time for testing or whatever or switched order or at least two DLCs...I thought I saw some interesting depot shuffle in SteamDB some time ago. But that is just my estimation... I can understand getting campaign out quickly as players are the best beta testers. If you think about long run...i think it is possible some content might be added even into 8P campaign. If not, it will be shame...i´m talking about bandits, a few new units here or there or factions for border regions...

    Anyway more chapter packs are what people wants and reson is looking at Wh2 and ME especially. CA really hit nail with content there.
    I agree that wrong order is part of the problem, but I also think that scale is another one. Simply put, the chapter packs just don't provide enough differentiation from the main campaign in their current state, so if you're tired of the main campaign, the chapter pack isn't that much of a break in routine.

    I don't think it's chapter packs people want. At least, not at the moment. If anything, the WH example should show that people are mostly after things that spice up the main campaign. People were fairly negative about the mini-campaigns in Warhammer 1 (as they were just the base game on a much smaller scale), and the historical campaign packs that do well tend to be the large ones that differentiate themselves from the base game in huge ways. Look at the difference in success between Rise of the Samurai vs Fall of the Samurai.

    I think Eight Princes could've been a fantastic DLC, had it come much later and at a much grander scope. But right now, with the focus on the gaps in the main game and the fact that those gaps are still visibly present in Eight Princes, the DLC did more to shine a light on the flaws of 3K rather than build its own identity.
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