Re: Civitate amendemet

[Perikles]

*Picks up the flag narses discarded and waves it around*

I still support this bill in a way but would instead institute these changes to it:

• Patricians demoted to Civitates/Artifex, unless they are on the CDC in which case they keep the rank. In essence patricians are those on the CDC and only hold the rank for the duration they are on the council. (better credit imb with this before he smites me )
• Civitate/Artifex are kept

So:

Civitate Amendment v 1.0

Proposer: Perikles
Supporters: Søren (the great), El Cid (unconditionally), gigagaia (when he gets home from work), Ragabash

Bill:

Member Ranks and Rights

All members of the Total War Center forums can be divided into the classes listed below. Each class confers to the member who holds it a specific set of rights and privileges unavailable to other classes unless specifically stated. It is possible for a member to hold more than one of these classes, in which case he may choose which he wishes to display while still retaining the associated rights of the additional classes he holds.

* Peregrinus
The rank of Peregrinus is conferred automatically with registration to the TWC forums. Any Peregrinus has the right to ask questions and suggest changes in the "Questions and Suggestions"forum.

* Citizen
Contributing members of TWC have the opportunity to become a Citizen of the forum as per the Patronization section of the Syntagma. There are two ranks of Citizen, one is elevated for their contributions to the Total War Community (Artifex), the other is elevated for their contribution to the Common Community (Civitate).

o All Citizens of TWC have limited rights to post within the Curia forum, as stated in the Curia section of the Syntagma.
o All Citizens are granted access to the Symposium and the [insert name of new forum dedicated for advanced discussion of Total War.]
o All Citizens may nominate other members for Citizenship as per the "Patronization" section of the Syntagma.

* Patrician
Patricians are members of the Consilium de Civitate and are elected into their role by the Curia. They only retain this rank for the duration of thier term on the Council.

* Senatorii
Any Citizen who gains the rank of Magistrate will gain the rank of Senatorii. They will retain it upon retirement if time served as moderator exceeds twelve weeks and upon unanimous agreement of the Triumvirate. The Senatorii rank confers no advantage, save status. The secondary rank – Civitate, Artifex or Patrician is the one that determines where the member has access or the legibility for elections, unless stated differently. Senatorii are automatically Citizens

* Opifex
To qualify as Opifex, the nominee must meet the following Criteria:

o Served the Total War Center or Total War Community with exceptional input to any of the boards or mods in any capacity other than staff.
o The nominee must be seconded by a member of the Consilium de Civitate before it can go to a vote. Vote shall be refused to any user who fails the criteria for citizenship with regard to warnings and post count.

Qualifying nominees shall be voted upon in the Curia for a period of one week, and a three-fourth majority will be sufficient to decorate a user as an Opifex. A user who passes the vote shall be awarded the rank of Artifex (if the nominee was not one already). A nominee who fails to achieve a three-fourth majority is eligible to be nominated again after a three month period.

The secondary rank – Civitate, Artifex or Patrician is the one that determines where the member has access or the legibility for elections, unless stated differently. Opifex are automatically Citizens

* Divus
To achieve apotheosis, the nominee must be seconded by 3 members of the Consilium de Civitates and meet the following criteria:

o Served as a Triumvir and subsequently has been a Senatorii for at least three months.
o Provided exceptional service to TWC in their capacity as staff.

After at least three days of discussion, qualifying nominees shall be voted upon in the Curia for a period of one week, and a three-fourth majority is sufficient to become 'Divus'. A nominee who fails is eligible to be nominated again after a three month period.

A Divus is considered automatically to be a Patrician Citizen and retains all privileges of that rank.

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The Curia

A special section shall be made in the forum to discuss pertinent topics in governance, a place for the Citizens to propose legislation, and to post relevant developments. The Curia is a place for the exchange of ideas, and if the rules against any infractions are tough in the normal forums, in the Curia, they are doubly so. The Curia is broken into distinct sections:

* Curia
For general discussion of governance related matters. Polls are not permitted within the Curia main. All Citizens may post in this area and propose informal legislation for discussion, though it will require Patrician support to become officially recognised in the Prothalamos, as per the Legislation section of the Syntagma. Threee Civitates need to Sponser a bill before it is moved to the Prothalamos.

* Prothalamos
An area specifically for formally proposing and discussing legislation and ideas relating to TWC as stated in the "Legislation" section of the Syntagma, but not for voting. Only Patricians may post in this area.

* Curia Vote
An area strictly used for voting on proposed legislation and in Curial Elections, as outlined in the "Legislation" and "Curial Elections" section of the Syntagma. Surveys are not permitted within this sub-forum. Only Patricians may post and vote in this area.

* Consilium de Civitate
An area visible only to elected Patricians and Senior Staff as per the "Consilium de Civitate" section of the Syntagma. Within this forum votes shall be taken regarding the granting and removal of certain Curial ranks.

Additional areas may be added at the discretion of Curia members and following an appropriate vote.

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Consilium de Civitate

Function:
The Consilium de Civitate (CdeC) manages the granting and removal of the ranks of Civitate and Artifex and Patrician through votes as per the "Patronization" and "Citizens' Behavior" sections of the Syntagma. The CdeC may also function as an advisory body to the staff of TWC in matters concerning the Curia and its Citizens.

Membership:
The Consilium de Civitate is primarily an elected body of Patricians. The full membership of the CdeC comprises of:

* 16 elected Patricians who may discuss and vote on all matters within the CdeC forums.
* Senior Staff, who may discuss all matters within the CdeC forums, but have no normal vote.
* The Syntagma Curator, who may take part in all CdeC discussions, and has the deciding vote in cases of a tie, but otherwise has no normal vote. The Curator has veto powers over any CdeC decision and may fire any elected member of the CdeC for non-attendance.

Elected members of the Consilium de Civitate must actively participate in discussions and votes, Senior Staff participation is optional.

Elections:
CdeC members are elected as per the Curial Elections section of the Syntagma - with the added requirement that candidates hold the basic rank of PatricianCitizen and have no Staff warnings at the time of election.

Each elected CdeC member has a term of three months starting from their date of election. When their term expires, new elections will be held for membership to the CdeC.

If a member of the CdeC resigns during their term, or if during elections less than 16 eligible Patricians Citizens apply in the candidates thread, the 'spare' positions may be filled by staff of any rank (with normal voting rights) until appropriate Patricians Citizens can be found to stand for election.

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Patronization
Any Citizen holding their rank for three months without warnings can Patronise a peregrinus for Citizenship at a rate of one per month (subject to requirements, section 1). The granting of Citizenship is determined by the Consilium de Civitate. The process for patronage works as follows:

1. The patron reviews the member before recommending him, ensuring the member has at least fifty posts, has been a registered member for at least one month and has no warnings in the last six months.
2. The nominee sends a private message to explain his duties, privileges, and contributions towards TWC to his patron. The patron then sends this paragraph (along with his own paragraph outlining why he chose this person for a client) to a member of the CdeC.
3. The CdeC member then opens a thread and vote in the Consilium de Civitate section and the proposed nominee is then discussed and voted on.
4. If the nominee achieves at least a 75% majority, the nominee shall become a Citizen. This must be concluded within 1 week.


If a nominee fails his Citizenship vote he must wait a minimum of one month before being put up for vote again. The nominating Patrician of a failed candidate may not patronise again for two months. Members of the CdeC must abstain from voting on those they wish to patronize.

All CdeC votes associated with patronage shall be concluded within one week (7 days) of the thread being opened in the CdeC.

Points 3 and 4 above are used for the promotion of Patricians nominated by an existing Patrician as per the requirements listed in Appendix A.

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Legislation

Any Patrician Citizen is able to post a Bill in the Prothalamos for discussion, which does not require named support. If a version of the bill becomes supported by a minimum of three other PatriciansCitizens, the proposer can request that the Syntagma Curator move the supported version of a bill to a vote three days after it was first posted.

Should it be judged that after the minimum of three days more time is needed for debate on the subject, or that the debate is active, and moving the Bill would be premature, the progression to voting of the Bill may be delayed at the discretion of the Syntagma Curator. If the Syntagma Curator decides to delay the vote on a Bill beyond one month, then this decision is subject to staff ratification in the same way as a staff veto.

Once moved to vote, all bills shall be voted on over a one-week period. All Bills will be required to run for the full duration so that all PatriciansCitizens may be able to vote if they so wish. In addition, responses (including indirect methods such as signatures) in the Curia Vote sub-forum will be limited to notification of having voted. A Bill shall pass on the basis of a two-thirds majority in favor. Abstentions are not considered when determining whether a Bill has achieved the required proportion of voters. If any Bill fails a vote, no revote on a substantially similar bill will be permitted for twenty-eight days.

To the extent made possible by the forum software, no member will be able to view the results of a poll in the Curia until he has voted in the poll or it has closed.

If the forum software cannot reasonably be modified to prohibit viewing of poll results by any given member, that member, is hereby obliged on their honour as a Patricians Civitates not to view the results of any poll in the Curia he has not voted in unless necessary for the execution of any duties he may have to the site.

[gigagaia]

Lovely JP. Let me read this over again at home, but I think I will end up supporting this. I also want to suggest some slight tweaks, but I'm at work right now...

[imb39]

Well, I think it has merit...

[Søren]

Well, I think it has merit...

By and large I support this though perhaps a few grammatical changes in the second paragraph might be in order.

[Perikles]

I have lot's of merit yet no official supporters...

[imb39]

OK. I prostate myself at jp's feet. This is fairly close to what I had intended for a while. I need to go through it more thoroughly, but on the surface it has my (almost) unqualified support.

I'd probably like to use this opportunity to scrap this part fo the legislation, though -

If a nominee fails his Citizenship vote he must wait a minimum of one month before being put up for vote again. The nominating Patrician Citizen of a failed candidate may not patronise again for two months. Members of the CdeC must abstain from voting on those they wish to patronize.

[Perikles]

Updated, because I agree (Soren still supports)

[imb39]

I support.

[Perikles]

Can I request that everything after and including my draft be split off into the proth for debate?

[Ragabash]

Edited the post as I did not understood it immediatly that red lines are to be removed and blue onces to be added. Perhaps this tag could be used in the future for deleted lines to prevent something like this for happening again.

But how about Senatorii rank, what if Senatorii decides to resign or is ostrakoned from the Citizenship, does he/she loses his/her Senatorii rank aswell or just Citizenship, this matter could be covered in this bill too, me thinks.

[imb39]

I agree with this proposal in general but before it gets my support there are something I would like to see changed/altered.

• Prothalamos
  An area specifically for formally proposing and discussing legislation and ideas relating to TWC as stated in the "Legislation" section of the Syntagma, but not for voting. Only Patricians may post in this area.
• Curia Vote
  An area strictly used for voting on proposed legislation and in Curial Elections, as outlined in the "Legislation" and "Curial Elections" section of the Syntagma. Surveys are not permitted within this sub-forum. Only Patricians may post and vote in this area.

This would give CdeC also the right to vote for bills as new candinates etc. Either we should give all Citizens sufrage or keep the Patrician class it's now.

The idea is to give suffrage and make the Patrician class elected. I'dlike to go a step further, in the end, and require all bills to have a Patrician as a supporter to further enhance the rank and have increased impact on the legislation. Also, if the elected class of Citizens (the Patricians) do not agree as a whole, then there is almost certainly something wrong.

A Divus is considered automatically to be a Patrician Citizen and retains all privileges of that rank.

I disagree strongly with this, especially if the Patrician class is supposed to represent the CdeC.

Well, remember, we are talking of a very, very small group of people here. This does need looking at. Perosnally, I would grant Divii the right to act as a Patrician in allowing legislation going to a vote. There is no right to CDC membership. I would also go further and say that HEX members do not act as Patricians in this case and require a Patrician/Divus to support too...

tBP - I think the changes back in September were necessary for variosu reason, but time change. I do, however, once again, apologise for all sins committed by me in various guises in the Curia, if not the world at large. I am currently wearing a coarse wollen vest as further penitance.

edit2 - I ought to add, I am speaking as an individual, here... These views in no way reflect, or can be attributed to, any other member of Hex.

[Perikles]

The changes you have proposed are, as far as I can see, already in the present draft...

[Spiff]

I dont understand what youve done here. Patricians are "elected into their role by the Curia".. by what process? What is the relevance of Appendix A any more? It needs more detail i think.

Member Ranks and Rights

...

• Patrician
  The rank of Patrician is granted to Citizens who are successfully elected to the Consilium de Civitate as per the Curial Elections section of the Syntagma. The rank of Patrician confers no additional rights beyond those stated in the Consilium de Civitate section of the Syntagma.

...

Consilium de Civitate

Function:
The Consilium de Civitate (CdeC) manages the granting and removal of the ranks of Civitate and Artifex and Patrician through votes as per the "Patronization" and "Citizens' Behavior" sections of the Syntagma. The CdeC may also function as an advisory body to the staff of TWC in matters concerning the Curia and its Citizens.

Membership:
The Consilium de Civitate is primarily an elected body of Patricians Citizens. The full membership of the CdeC comprises of:

• 16 elected PatriciansCitizens, who may discuss and vote on all matters within the CdeC forums.
• Senior Staff, who may discuss all matters within the CdeC forums, but have no normal vote.
• The Syntagma Curator, who may take part in all CdeC discussions, and has the deciding vote in cases of a tie, but otherwise has no normal vote. The Curator has veto powers over any CdeC decision and may fire any elected member of the CdeC for non-attendance.

Elected members of the Consilium de Civitate must actively participate in discussions and votes, Senior Staff participation is optional.

Elections:
CdeC members are elected as per the Curial Elections section of the Syntagma - with the added requirement that candidates hold the basic rank of Patrician Citizen and have no Staff warnings at the time of election.

Each elected CdeC member has a term of three months starting from their date of election. When their term expires, new elections will be held for membership to the CdeC. Citizens who are elected to the CdeC shall gain the rank of Patrician for the duration of their term.

If a member of the CdeC resigns during their term, or if during elections less than 16 eligible Patricians Citizens apply in the candidates thread, the 'spare' positions may be filled by staff of any rank (with normal voting rights) until appropriate Patricians Citizens can be found to stand for election.

[the Black Prince]

can i get a letter signed by senior staff we were wrong and you were right?

lol

[the Black Prince]

can i suggest however, that we exercise a little patience, and just once, wait.

wait until the representation of the citixzens act, if it passes, makes its changes, and THEN change the syntagma as amended by that act... coz right now, the text of this bill is editing text that won't exist once a bill in vote passes (if it does)

[imb39]

the ideas are still worth discussing, they do not have to go to a vote until after the said decision has been made.

[Halie Satanus]

Well, remember, we are talking of a very, very small group of people here. This does need looking at. Personally, I would grant Divii the right to act as a Patrician in allowing legislation going to a vote. There is no right to CDC membership. I would also go further and say that HEX members do not act as Patricians in this case and require a Patrician/Divus to support too...

I'll support once these amendments are discussed, ie 16 is a very small number, HEX should not have automatic Patricianship, if I'm reading those right.

Also taking Spiff's tweeks into account.

[gigagaia]

One thing that makes me a bit uncomfortable, is the number of patricians that this will create, and the centralization of power in the hands of a small elite few who already have the reigns of power on bringing up members.

In that sense, I think the system as it is works fairly well... I'll mull it over more for now...

[imb39]

Like I said, if you cannot get one Patrician to agree to an ammendment/Bill or whatever the correct phrasing is, then it does need further examination. On a side note, I do not see why a member of Hex cannot run for one of the elected seats, though I suspect it would be better to have a division of powers etc.

Also, Halie, my suggestion above is not part of the proposal, I am merely floating this now (though it might be combined within jp's proposal). It might be shot down now.

Giga, the power is that of effective veto, nothing else. ie, If ALL patricians say no, it cannot be voted on. Of course, they should have no say on whether any element is discussed.

[Halie Satanus]

I do not see why a member of Hex cannot run for one of the elected seats, though I suspect it would be better to have a division of powers etc.

Not that it bothers me, but it would give the CdeC of this proposal independence, or at least a semblance of...no??

Although perhaps one Curial elected member of Hex on the CdeC would be a good idea anyway, as much a liaison between the two bodies, and a show of faith in the CdeC.

(someone is going to misread that)

Also, Halie, my suggestion above is not part of the proposal, I am merely floating this now (though it might be combined within jp's proposal). It might be shot down now.

Yes sorry, i meant proposed 'amendments are discussed'.