Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 21 to 40 of 45

Thread: ANNO DOMINI 973 - a crossover of gaming and historiography (M2TW Kingdoms modification)

  1. #21

    Default Re: ANNO DOMINI 1000, Europe and Middle East to Baghdad, historicity and gameplay, extensive historiographical work.

    Well, Godspeed

    You mentioned you will focus the campaign map more on Europe, so how much of the Middle East will you include?

    Will your map reach Bagdad?

    Theoretically, if you decide to focus on a scenario from 900ish AD to 1097, without including the Crusades, with a 4 turn per year gameplay, you could remove everything east of Anatolia and the coastal strip of the Levant, as the stagnate factions east of the Fatimids would not be a necessity for such a scenario and the Roman Empire ruled the northern rest of the mentioned ME area.

    This would save you quite a number of provinces.

  2. #22
    Dominick's Avatar Biarchus
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Rijeka/Zagreb, Croatia
    Posts
    680

    Default Re: ANNO DOMINI 1000, Europe and Middle East to Baghdad, historicity and gameplay, extensive historiographical work.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mamlaz View Post
    Well, Godspeed

    You mentioned you will focus the campaign map more on Europe, so how much of the Middle East will you include?

    Will your map reach Bagdad?

    Theoretically, if you decide to focus on a scenario from 900ish AD to 1097, without including the Crusades, with a 4 turn per year gameplay, you could remove everything east of Anatolia and the coastal strip of the Levant, as the stagnate factions east of the Fatimids would not be a necessity for such a scenario and the Roman Empire ruled the northern rest of the mentioned ME area.

    This would save you quite a number of provinces.
    Redone, proportionally bigger in size map, from Ireland to Baghdad. We want to focus on Europe and areas impacted by Europeans in that period.
    We're going to include Armenia, Georgia and emerging Seljuks as factions. Stagnate Muslim dynasties in the east will be represented by different rebel subfactions and with scripted historical events marking historical advances of such dynasties if certain conditions are met.
    The end event is around 1150 to mark the fall of the Almoravids under the Almohads in 1147 (Caliphate of Cordoba and emerging Almoravids will be represented as two different factions). We're going to use the 4 turn per year system.
    We will probably use both historical event Crusades and game engine Crusades (have to see what are the limitations, f.e. if we could script the first game engine Crusade to be in 1097 with spawning historical crusading armies in the east). We're already cutting land east of Baghdad, so we will have quite some more provinces to play with than on maps that stretch further east while also giving more geographical detail to the rest of the campaign map.

    Cheers
    Dominik Pešut,
    President of Association "Gromovnik",
    Project Leader of Anno Domini


  3. #23

    Default Re: ANNO DOMINI 1000, Europe and Middle East to Baghdad, historicity and gameplay, extensive historiographical work.

    Interesting to see how you will implement the crusades so late ingame.

    With a 4 turn per year system, you are speaking of at least 400 turns until the first crusade is launched, by then, the map will already be reduced to just a few factions at best, if the player even gets that far without already conquering the Holy Land.

    Also, I do not see the importance of the Almoravids/Almohads for their event to be the end event, but anywho, with a 4 turn per year build, that indeed gives the player more than enough time to enjoy the 11th century

  4. #24
    Dominick's Avatar Biarchus
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Rijeka/Zagreb, Croatia
    Posts
    680

    Default Re: ANNO DOMINI 1000, Europe and Middle East to Baghdad, historicity and gameplay, extensive historiographical work.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mamlaz View Post
    Interesting to see how you will implement the crusades so late ingame.

    With a 4 turn per year system, you are speaking of at least 400 turns until the first crusade is launched, by then, the map will already be reduced to just a few factions at best, if the player even gets that far without already conquering the Holy Land.

    Also, I do not see the importance of the Almoravids/Almohads for their event to be the end event, but anywho, with a 4 turn per year build, that indeed gives the player more than enough time to enjoy the 11th century
    PSFs, population recruitment limits, larger free upkeep in settlements, garrison scripts, high maintenance costs etc. are all factors we will play with to slow the game down. As such, the victory conditions will be much less ambitious. The goal will be to increase the importance of roleplay elements, management of armies through free upkeep and preparing well planned campaigns unless you want your coffers to hit rock bottom. Every PSF will be important because that will give you the opportunity to host a larger army - something which relates well to history - feudalism, a PSF plays out as a vassal with his retinue (and levies to be levied when the lord so requests) under his host unless campaigning in the field under your command (when the high maintenance costs kick in - not even by using any script)! We will mix and match to see what options are optimal for the AI and which are for the player while keeping it balanced. Also, this will all give the player more time to explore the historical world we aim to accomplish, so basically the Crusades will be the Timurids/Americas event of our modification.

    I also have an idea of a scripted "rebel vassalage system" which would serve as roleplay for players playing as historically decentralised states such as France or any other faction with loosely controlled vassals, something yet to be seen how it could be realised.

    The point with the fall of the Almoravids is the fact we can't encompass any more factions into our modification, as Almohads deserve to be a faction on their own from a historical perspective. It wouldn't matter that much if we chose another event in the 12th century, such as the formation of the Ayyubid Caliphate, as the modification will be large enough already. You have to also keep in mind that we're marginally Croato-centric in choosing certain points in history, so having a Kingdom of Croatia going too far through history is a bit unhistorical, while also giving the players the ability to survive the "curse of King Dmitar Zvonimir" event and as the legend says, go on a crusade.

    Speaking of which, I'll just leave this here for the atmosphere:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Until next time,

    Dominik
    Last edited by Dominick; March 22, 2018 at 05:26 PM.
    Dominik Pešut,
    President of Association "Gromovnik",
    Project Leader of Anno Domini


  5. #25

    Default Re: ANNO DOMINI 1000, Europe and Middle East to Baghdad, historicity and gameplay, extensive historiographical work.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dominick View Post
    the historical world we aim to accomplish, so basically the Crusades will be the Timurids/Americas event of our modification.

    Does this mean you are considering to have the crusader states as a separate invasion faction along/instead of existing factions launching their own crusader armies?


    Quote Originally Posted by Dominick View Post
    You have to also keep in mind that we're marginally Croato-centric
    Which is why I find it strange you are not including the first king of Croatia into the start date

  6. #26
    Dominick's Avatar Biarchus
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Rijeka/Zagreb, Croatia
    Posts
    680

    Default Re: ANNO DOMINI 1000, Europe and Middle East to Baghdad, historicity and gameplay, extensive historiographical work.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mamlaz View Post
    Does this mean you are considering to have the crusader states as a separate invasion faction along/instead of existing factions launching their own crusader armies?
    No, we're going to have crusading armies spawning with scripted behaviour belonging to their associated in-game factions (f.e. the Principality of Antioch was ruled by Hautevilles, the dynasty behind the County of Sicily). Another way of representing crusaders is through the Papal States.



    Which is why I find it strange you are not including the first king of Croatia into the start date
    For Tomislav we aren't sure if he was a king, for Stjepan Držislav, we are.
    Last edited by Dominick; March 22, 2018 at 06:08 PM.

  7. #27
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
    Artifex

    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Cracovia
    Posts
    2,514

    Default Re: ANNO DOMINI 1000, Europe and Middle East to Baghdad, historicity and gameplay, extensive historiographical work.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dominick View Post
    PSFs, population recruitment limits, larger free upkeep in settlements, garrison scripts, high maintenance costs etc. are all factors we will play with to slow the game down. As such, the victory conditions will be much less ambitious. The goal will be to increase the importance of roleplay elements, management of armies through free upkeep and preparing well planned campaigns unless you want your coffers to hit rock bottom. Every PSF will be important because that will give you the opportunity to host a larger army - something which relates well to history - feudalism, a PSF plays out as a vassal with his retinue (and levies to be levied when the lord so requests) under his host unless campaigning in the field under your command (when the high maintenance costs kick in - not even by using any script)!
    I do like very much the idea of slowing down the game and inducing the player to role-play, spend much time in managing the economy and the armies. In this respect, the best mod for the time (besides EBII and TATW) is, as I've already mentioned, the Broken Crescent - with all the scripts included.

    However, the PSFs are a trap made by the M2TW engine for the modders. The DotS has fallen into it, and failed as it should at the point of creation, while HURB and DLV introduced them to the detriment of the gameplay. It's very bad for the AI and for the gameplay This is why the idea been abandoned by (I believe) all modern M2TW mods (eg. EBII, SSHIP, BC).

    Quote Originally Posted by Dominick View Post
    I also have an idea of a scripted "rebel vassalage system" which would serve as roleplay for players playing as historically decentralised states such as France or any other faction with loosely controlled vassals, something yet to be seen how it could be realised
    I don't think that after the book of Susan Reynolds the historians believe in the widespread vassalage system anymore. This is mid-20th century thinking (or wider: 19-20th century) The perils of having the "feudal" lenses concerning the Byzantine state were exposed recently by Anthony Kaldellis.
    I believe that civil war scripts (as present in the Broken Crescent or the SSHIP) are much more historical.
    Last edited by Jurand of Cracow; March 23, 2018 at 02:59 AM.

  8. #28
    Dominick's Avatar Biarchus
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Rijeka/Zagreb, Croatia
    Posts
    680

    Default Re: ANNO DOMINI 1000, Europe and Middle East to Baghdad, historicity and gameplay, extensive historiographical work.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jurand of Cracow View Post
    However, the PSFs are a trap made by the M2TW engine for the modders. The DotS has fallen into it, and failed as it should at the point of creation, while HURB and DLV introduced them to the detriment of the gameplay. It's very bad for the AI and for the gameplay This is why the idea been abandoned by (I believe) all modern M2TW mods (eg. EBII, SSHIP, BC).
    Divide and Conquer for Third Age TW uses PSFs (of course, not in the extent of Dominion of the Sword (DotS), nor do I wish for our map to be a PSF ridden dystopia). However, I believe they are something worth to still be played around and I find it heresy to be completely abandoned. As a matter of fact, I will have everything possible done to see them live. Historically, forts were used to control an area and invaders had to take them for them to truly conquer a land. Furthermore, they can even be used to represent smaller towns by playing around with the different cultures and placement of them on the campaign map. As the idea is for the player to actually USE PSFs for free upkeep and be punished for using the armies too long on the field, I don't find it an exploit to use PSFs to house armies in our case.
    Also, if the price for building one is high enough, why not even be able to build them? As a matter of fact, I've seen Piter's CAI in Kingdoms and in Bellum Crucis building them and actually using them.

    I don't think that after the book of Susan Reynolds the historians believe in the widespread vassalage system anymore. This is mid-20th century thinking (or wider: 19-20th century) The perils of having the "feudal" lenses concerning the Byzantine state were exposed recently by Anthony Kaldellis.
    I believe that civil war scripts (as present in the Broken Crescent or the SSHIP) are much more historical.
    We will definitely have to look into the vassalage theories a bit more. For the civil wars, I already had including a civil war script in mind.

    Thank you very much for the informative post and enjoy some rep!

    Best regards,
    Dominik
    Dominik Pešut,
    President of Association "Gromovnik",
    Project Leader of Anno Domini


  9. #29

    Default Re: ANNO DOMINI 1000, Europe and Middle East to Baghdad, historicity and gameplay, extensive historiographical work.

    Its rly hard to represent full close to history gameplay of M2TWK game, Dominick. Closest that u can do is set map and factions in specific period. U could use many event pop ups to create more historical info gameplay but true question is how will that impact gameplay or anything in game for factions. Traits and retinues can be changed and lots of mods already did it. Almost eveyr single one of them.
    On other hand period around 1000 AD is hard to represent because many kingdoms changed in that specific period not to mention Viking period is still present. So it more work and i rly dont know how many ppl is there with skills to do it.
    U need as some1 say give some limitations to game cuz many mods fail in begging when progress is stopped. Trust me i was long time ago part of one such team it didnt move from my photoshop and history database.
    Again i think 1000 AD is very hard and too much ambition project its almost full conversion of vanilla. U could have Croatia in 1080 but its very arguable impact they will be conqured by Hungarians already by 1102 so if u keep your fation alive and give proper unit roster it could stay alive. There is mod SV 3.3 and Eras Total war which represent very nice different faction in specific years.
    Again bare in mind in 1000 AD u have more factions than in 1080 AD that are impacting history thats why CA bypass complexety of European history before 1080 AD and leave the period of time for Viking invasion expansion for M2TW.

  10. #30
    Dominick's Avatar Biarchus
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Rijeka/Zagreb, Croatia
    Posts
    680

    Default Re: ANNO DOMINI 1000, Europe and Middle East to Baghdad, historicity and gameplay, extensive historiographical work.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shogun View Post
    Its rly hard to represent full close to history gameplay of M2TWK game, Dominick. Closest that u can do is set map and factions in specific period. U could use many event pop ups to create more historical info gameplay but true question is how will that impact gameplay or anything in game for factions. Traits and retinues can be changed and lots of mods already did it. Almost eveyr single one of them.
    On other hand period around 1000 AD is hard to represent because many kingdoms changed in that specific period not to mention Viking period is still present. So it more work and i rly dont know how many ppl is there with skills to do it.
    U need as some1 say give some limitations to game cuz many mods fail in begging when progress is stopped. Trust me i was long time ago part of one such team it didnt move from my photoshop and history database.
    Again i think 1000 AD is very hard and too much ambition project its almost full conversion of vanilla. U could have Croatia in 1080 but its very arguable impact they will be conqured by Hungarians already by 1102 so if u keep your fation alive and give proper unit roster it could stay alive. There is mod SV 3.3 and Eras Total war which represent very nice different faction in specific years.
    Again bare in mind in 1000 AD u have more factions than in 1080 AD that are impacting history thats why CA bypass complexety of European history before 1080 AD and leave the period of time for Viking invasion expansion for M2TW.
    Just wait until we make an actual review and then make your judgments. The team is in the works.

  11. #31

    Default Re: ANNO DOMINI 1000, Europe and Middle East to Baghdad, historicity and gameplay, extensive historiographical work.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dominick View Post
    For Tomislav we aren't sure if he was a king
    Historiography is pretty sure, as the pope called him king, and the pope decided who is king in the Catholic world.

    The church conclusions in Split in 925 also call him "Tamisclao rege" so there is no debate here.

    The only reason there are any "doubts" is because some Croatian historians like to flame bait nationalists and piss them off.

  12. #32
    Dominick's Avatar Biarchus
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Rijeka/Zagreb, Croatia
    Posts
    680

    Default Re: ANNO DOMINI 1000, Europe and Middle East to Baghdad, historicity and gameplay, extensive historiographical work.


    Updated first post.



    Quote Originally Posted by Mamlaz View Post
    Historiography is pretty sure, as the pope called him king, and the pope decided who is king in the Catholic world.

    The church conclusions in Split in 925 also call him "Tamisclao rege" so there is no debate here.

    The only reason there are any "doubts" is because some Croatian historians like to flame bait nationalists and piss them off.
    I'm sure one of my university professors will make an account on TWC one day just to question your thesis here due to shown interest in the project.
    Last edited by Dominick; April 25, 2018 at 05:36 PM.

  13. #33

    Default Re: ANNO DOMINI 973 - a crossover of gaming and historiography (M2TW Kingdoms modification)

    Hehe


    Not sure how any of them will argue against the only two contemporary mentions of Tomislav by name both having a royal title tied to it, but I guess debunk-sensationalism is an inescapable straw that Balkan historians simply cannot resist

  14. #34

    Default Re: ANNO DOMINI 973 - a crossover of gaming and historiography (M2TW Kingdoms modification)

    It's great

  15. #35

    Default Re: ANNO DOMINI 973 - a crossover of gaming and historiography (M2TW Kingdoms modification)

    What units are planed for this mod? What materials for units will be used? Mound and blade, or vanila medieval2?

  16. #36
    Dominick's Avatar Biarchus
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Rijeka/Zagreb, Croatia
    Posts
    680

    Default Re: ANNO DOMINI 973 - a crossover of gaming and historiography (M2TW Kingdoms modification)

    Quote Originally Posted by achilles-91 View Post
    What units are planed for this mod? What materials for units will be used? Mound and blade, or vanila medieval2?
    Units are to be historically based and to represent different classes of soldiers as mentioned in historical sources.

    We will not use material from other games as that is copyright violation. We will make our own where and how much is possible, or use materials from existing M2TW mods.


    Quote Originally Posted by Khevsur
    It's great
    Thank you for your kind words Khevsur! It's great to have a creative artist such as yourself on our team!
    Dominik Pešut,
    President of Association "Gromovnik",
    Project Leader of Anno Domini


  17. #37

    Default Re: ANNO DOMINI 973 - a crossover of gaming and historiography (M2TW Kingdoms modification)

    Is there single unit done so far? I am realy interested to see how units will look like, would appreciate a lot if you can show me just single unit.

  18. #38
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
    Artifex

    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Cracovia
    Posts
    2,514

    Default Re: ANNO DOMINI 973 - a crossover of gaming and historiography (M2TW Kingdoms modification)

    For those eager to play a Slavic faction in the Balkans: a Bulgarian submod seems to be released faster than a Croatian mod: https://www.moddb.com/mods/rise-of-b...4-mod/#7118410 (and you've got Serbian faction in the SSHIP as well, some other mods concentrating on the region are being developed: Tsardoms or The Great Campaigns).

  19. #39
    Dominick's Avatar Biarchus
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Rijeka/Zagreb, Croatia
    Posts
    680

    Default Re: ANNO DOMINI 973 - a crossover of gaming and historiography (M2TW Kingdoms modification)

    Quote Originally Posted by achilles-91 View Post
    Is there single unit done so far? I am realy interested to see how units will look like, would appreciate a lot if you can show me just single unit.

    We aren't focusing on units thus far, so we don't have anything to show concerning units.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jurand of Cracow View Post
    For those eager to play a Slavic faction in the Balkans: a Bulgarian submod seems to be released faster than a Croatian mod: https://www.moddb.com/mods/rise-of-b...4-mod/#7118410 (and you've got Serbian faction in the SSHIP as well, some other mods concentrating on the region are being developed: Tsardoms or The Great Campaigns).
    We are cooperating with the team from Tsardoms as well.
    Last edited by Dominick; October 16, 2018 at 09:08 AM.
    Dominik Pešut,
    President of Association "Gromovnik",
    Project Leader of Anno Domini


  20. #40

    Default Re: ANNO DOMINI 973 - a crossover of gaming and historiography (M2TW Kingdoms modification)

    Is anything going on here or in the Croatian forum?
    Please say there is.

Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •