View Poll Results: Reloading for the best mission (reward)

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  • Do nothing against it (as unfortunately, some factions wouldnt be alive without it at this point, for example Heritance, so its extremely rooted in the current situation))

    3 33.33%
  • You cannot move units generated from missions for a turn /se

    5 55.56%
  • Units received from a mission may not be used in a battle the turn that they are received

    2 22.22%
  • You must disband all units that you receive from missions.

    2 22.22%
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Thread: [The Elder Scrolls - Unofficial Patch 1.42] Black Drake

  1. #1701
    Mergor's Avatar T H E | G O R
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    Default Re: [The Elder Scrolls - Unofficial Patch 1.42] Black Drake

    Check "A Storm of Swords" hotseat Page 14. A whole array of players contributed their opinion and it resulted in a rule that was accepted without any backlash actually, so I feel that is a good precedent, and a TWC precedent nonetheless.
    Anyhow, there were 4 different admins here, and Wolf - bless him - wasn't very sure with his opinions, as you can see on the screenshot. Last time, the argument was the admin can decide and is above all, and so I would like to hear norway. There should not be another thread war, so I'll leave it at that.

  2. #1702

    Default Re: [The Elder Scrolls - Unofficial Patch 1.42] Black Drake

    If you want to reverse that precedent, you'd better be willing to reverse the past 5 turns of the hotseat then since the situation in Pelletine would look quite a bit different if we hadn't been explicitly told we weren't allowed to do the thing you're now saying should be permitted when you do it.

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  3. #1703
    Jadli's Avatar The Fallen God
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    Default Re: [The Elder Scrolls - Unofficial Patch 1.42] Black Drake

    Previous admin set a precedent for this, we should follow it. And it affected our side significantly indeed

    @Mergor Again, different HS, different rules. Some other hotseats say you can trade only 3 turns after being taken, etc etc

    Anyway, no energy to argue, just give us a ruling cap pls
    Last edited by Jadli; January 16, 2023 at 04:54 AM.

  4. #1704
    Mergor's Avatar T H E | G O R
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    Default Re: [The Elder Scrolls - Unofficial Patch 1.42] Black Drake

    The opinion of Wolf or clarification what a warzone was never revealed until now or made official, only you knew about it. Based on how he probably just gave an "idk not sure" answer to the question, I have to ask whether that counts now. Anyway, I still suggest you read that page, because the definition of warzone was discussed throughoutly there, and because its funny how Jadli argues against himself when his goals are the opposite I gotta go back to study, so yes, ruling, I do not want a thread war.

  5. #1705
    Jadli's Avatar The Fallen God
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    Default Re: [The Elder Scrolls - Unofficial Patch 1.42] Black Drake

    Im not arguing against myself. Its not my problem you dont understand that different HS have different rules and players in those hotseats follow it. This HS has a precedent for this interpretation of the rules, therefore it should be followed. Whatever opinion I might have about a perfect version of this rule doesnt matter, cause we already have the precedent in this HS and our side has played accordingly.

    And yet again, you guys did something thats not generally allowed, and you didnt ask anyone before hand (unlike us).
    Last edited by Jadli; January 16, 2023 at 05:28 AM.

  6. #1706

    Default Re: [The Elder Scrolls - Unofficial Patch 1.42] Black Drake

    I have a better time dealing with 4 year olds. Ventos needs to stop gaslighting. Jadli, I personally agree it sounds like you’re siding with whatever rules fits your agenda. I agree different HS different rules, but it should be Admin to decide and as elected Norway should have a say so and hear all who have quarries and he will finalize his decision. Probably most of this ends up better being discussed private DMs. Make a discord server/channel for debating rules/exploits if need be.

  7. #1707
    Captainnorway's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: [The Elder Scrolls - Unofficial Patch 1.42] Black Drake

    I guess this are the results so far…

    option 1: 0
    option 2: 0
    option 3: 0

    This is a discusion to clearify the rules, so we know what is considered a warzone in the future… not a discusion about wether or not this is allowed.

    If wolfs decision was to be accepted, it should have been written into the rules.

  8. #1708
    Mergor's Avatar T H E | G O R
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    Default Re: [The Elder Scrolls - Unofficial Patch 1.42] Black Drake

    Well I did say that I want the precedent of WTW, which is:
    Two factions can trade maximally one settlement per turn. Such settlements can only be traded if they are not in danger of being besieged by any number of enemy units, AND the switch, along with the disbanding of units can happen before the settlement could be besieged. If such settlements borders an enemy province, the two players trading the settlement must notify their enemy(s) that the trade will happen. Their enemy(s) may show proof that the settlement can indeed be besieged to prevent the trade.

    That would be option 2, really.

  9. #1709

    Default Re: [The Elder Scrolls - Unofficial Patch 1.42] Black Drake

    Option 1.

    This discussion should have been over the moment I shared the ruling of the previous admin. There is no ambiguity here. One side of this hotseat went through the proper channels to resolve that ambiguity two months ago and has been playing according to that ruling for those two months, the other has consistently done whatever they wanted and dragged things out into a debate when someone calls foul.

    The rules being used in WTW are entirely irrelevant when there is explicit precedent for this hotseat.

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  10. #1710
    Mergor's Avatar T H E | G O R
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    Default Re: [The Elder Scrolls - Unofficial Patch 1.42] Black Drake

    Ventos, you have shared a ruling after the incident happened. That is a very dishonest way to use perceived admin rulings. It should have been revealed then and there, when it was made, and then no ambiguity would exist.

  11. #1711

    Default Re: [The Elder Scrolls - Unofficial Patch 1.42] Black Drake

    I wasn't exactly expecting to have an admin resign on us.

    In any case, the ruling was made. Its inconvenient that Wolf failing to write it down in public means you weren't aware of it when playing Skyrim's turn, but that shouldn't mean that it now doesn't apply, when the other side has been following that rule in good faith for two months, to significant disadvantage. Skyrim's turn should be replayed.

    edit: And if we want to talk about honesty, its a bit rich to call this a 'perceived' ruling. Sure, Wolf was a bit ambivalent in his wording, but what do you expect would have happened if we had gone ahead and traded Bravil anyway after getting that response from him?
    Last edited by Ventos Mustel; January 16, 2023 at 01:13 PM.

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  12. #1712
    jimmy_dude's Avatar Libertus
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    Default Re: [The Elder Scrolls - Unofficial Patch 1.42] Black Drake

    Option 2. In any sense, this makes the most sense since there's so many instances where this is the logically the case like what about island settlement, what if there's an enemy army deep in allied territory? You surely can't just trade regions nearby those situations, can you? This mod also has a ton of mountain borders (including things like the "border" between pale pass/helgen) where the provinces look like they border each other on the overview map, but really they're super isolated due to the mountains and can't even trade with each other. Either way, option 1 seems unnecessarily restrictive in some situations and not restrictive enough in others, so my vote is we go with option 2, since that's the only case where gameplay would actually be seriously affected to the extent it should be banned.

    It also seems to me like there's a fair bit of hypocrisy here by Jadli in that he argued for option 2 in other hotseats, and it would be stupid if the same rules meant different things in different games. I get your point about Wolf's ruling earlier, but one can't expect all of us to know and plan around secret rulings like this only for you to conveniently reveal them when you know it would hurt the most. Maybe this is more Wolf's fault, but you can't expect to enforce definitions like this later on especially when other hotseats on this site are defining the same rules in different ways.

  13. #1713

    Default Re: [The Elder Scrolls - Unofficial Patch 1.42] Black Drake

    There has always been variation in rules between hotseats. Especially between ones with entirely different mods. Back in the day Westeros hotseats may as well have been a different planet from everything else

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  14. #1714
    Jadli's Avatar The Fallen God
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    Default Re: [The Elder Scrolls - Unofficial Patch 1.42] Black Drake

    Quote Originally Posted by jimmy_dude View Post

    It also seems to me like there's a fair bit of hypocrisy here by Jadli in that he argued for option 2 in other hotseats, and it would be stupid if the same rules meant different things in different games. .
    Im not arguing about what the interpretation of the rule should be like, just informing you that we asked the previous admin if we can do such a move and he said no, hence that would normally set a precedent for this HS. Two completely separate things.
    Last edited by Jadli; January 16, 2023 at 03:06 PM.

  15. #1715

    Default Re: [The Elder Scrolls - Unofficial Patch 1.42] Black Drake

    I will state the uncertainty of the previous admin, also. He said yes but not sure about Bravil's case. The interpretation should be up to an active judge for a new hearing if anything. Different case, different trial. I'm definitely not replaying a turn once again that should be over with and moved on. It's taking a 1 month for just a single turn to pass. If every turn becomes like this then this campaign will never end.

  16. #1716

    Default Re: [The Elder Scrolls - Unofficial Patch 1.42] Black Drake

    You wouldn't have to replay the turn if you checked ahead of time whether the move was allowed, instead of running ahead with your own self-serving interpretation of the rule borrowed from an entirely unrelated hotseat

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  17. #1717
    Jadli's Avatar The Fallen God
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    Default Re: [The Elder Scrolls - Unofficial Patch 1.42] Black Drake

    No need to replay anyways. This one could have been solved easily by moving armies back.

  18. #1718
    Isenbard's Avatar Semisalis
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    Default Re: [The Elder Scrolls - Unofficial Patch 1.42] Black Drake

    Option 2 for me. I like it the most. I argue that Reaktorkern did not set a precedent, barely even suggested it based on that single picture alone.

    I raised my concerns about this move in our own chat, though the others were quite unanomus about it being allowed. I will make sure to throw a big tantrum there next time if a grey move is being played without consulting the admin first

    If that helps

  19. #1719

    Default Re: [The Elder Scrolls - Unofficial Patch 1.42] Black Drake

    Again, exactly what do you expect would have happened, if we traded Bravil after getting that response from the admin? Do you honestly believe that was him saying "do whatever you want"?

    And further, the swap under dispute still would not be valid even under the option 2 interpretation, as there is a full stack in garrison at Pale Pass, whose generals are within 1 turn's movement of Helgen.
    Last edited by Ventos Mustel; January 17, 2023 at 10:18 AM.

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  20. #1720
    Mergor's Avatar T H E | G O R
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    Default Re: [The Elder Scrolls - Unofficial Patch 1.42] Black Drake

    "Do you honestly believe that was him saying "do whatever you want"?"

    Not precisely that, but I don't believe he cared too much either or knew what he was talking about. Wolf's admining here was faulty from the start, as he really had no idea on the extent of exploits pro-s use. When we talked before he left, he was surprised at ships being able to attack other ships in forts, and that is saying something. Not to say he is a bad admin, but he was wildly inexperienced at stuff like this, and so his "idk whatever" is him simply not being able to make a decision. Or so that is what I believe based on my experience with him.

    Edit to your edit: helgen can be blocked with a fort, or the generals that stand outside probably block the general so it doesn't reach. Nevertheless as jimmy said, Helgen can't even trade with Pale Pass, its not a real neighbour, althought thats like a side thought
    Last edited by Mergor; January 17, 2023 at 02:05 PM.

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