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  • Do nothing against it (as unfortunately, some factions wouldnt be alive without it at this point, for example Heritance, so its extremely rooted in the current situation))

    3 37.50%
  • You cannot move units generated from missions for a turn /se

    4 50.00%
  • Units received from a mission may not be used in a battle the turn that they are received

    2 25.00%
  • You must disband all units that you receive from missions.

    2 25.00%
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Thread: [The Elder Scrolls - Unofficial Patch 1.42] Black Drake

  1. #1601
    Mergor's Avatar T H E | G O R
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    Default Re: [The Elder Scrolls - Unofficial Patch 1.42] Black Drake

    Alright, so here is the issue without revealing who believes what, and it is important to say that there has been no precedent to this:

    "
    Ships cannot leave blockaded ports"

    Are land units blockading a port included in this rule, or would the rule have to specify that to be the case? (Does only ship blockades count)


  2. #1602

    Default Re: [The Elder Scrolls - Unofficial Patch 1.42] Black Drake

    Quote Originally Posted by Mergor View Post
    Alright, so here is the issue without revealing who believes what, and it is important to say that there has been no precedent to this:

    "
    Ships cannot leave blockaded ports"

    Are land units blockading a port included in this rule, or would the rule have to specify that to be the case? (Does only ship blockades count)

    Same case as in BD2. The rule clearly doesn't say anythink that ports may only be blocked by ships.

    BTW after what happened in BD2, I posted here that in BD1 the rule also should be rewriten, through no1 exept me seemd to be intrested in it.

  3. #1603
    Jadli's Avatar The Fallen God
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    Default Re: [The Elder Scrolls - Unofficial Patch 1.42] Black Drake

    I have not noticed it in your post sadly... anyway, when Wolf implemented it in BD 2 I also asked if it should be done in BD 1, but he didnt answer to that back then, so yea, no precedent in this HS . Anyway, in cases when it ends up being allowed, its usually at least done in such a way, that you cant block the entire port with a unit (as blocking an entire navy with one unit may be pretty ridiculous), but a unit/units per ships...

    so basically the options are
    A) Units cant blockade ships (but they can ofc still block ports, and hence deplete income of an enemy)
    B) Units can blockade ships, on units per ships basis i.e., usually its either one unit per a blocked ship, or 2 units per ship (as in BD). Additional unblocked ships may leave the port.
    C) Units can blockade ships... only one unit is necessary.
    Last edited by Jadli; December 12, 2022 at 07:57 AM.

  4. #1604
    Mergor's Avatar T H E | G O R
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    Default Re: [The Elder Scrolls - Unofficial Patch 1.42] Black Drake

    Yeah, we basically have to choose one out of the three that Jadli listed. Although I would leave this decision with norway, as players did not seem to agree

  5. #1605
    Isenbard's Avatar Semisalis
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    Default Re: [The Elder Scrolls - Unofficial Patch 1.42] Black Drake

    Option A is quite interesting me thinks

  6. #1606

    Default Re: [The Elder Scrolls - Unofficial Patch 1.42] Black Drake

    Has anything other than option A ever been enforced in a hotseat that didn't specifically have a rule similar to the one in BD2?

    When a land unit stands on a hostile port, all that happens game-mechanically is the trade from that port is cut off. Fleets are completely unimpeded, in contrast to what happens when blockaded by another fleet.

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  7. #1607
    Chieftain Khuzaymah's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: [The Elder Scrolls - Unofficial Patch 1.42] Black Drake

    Quote Originally Posted by Mergor View Post
    Alright, so here is the issue without revealing who believes what, and it is important to say that there has been no precedent to this:

    "
    Ships cannot leave blockaded ports"

    Are land units blockading a port included in this rule, or would the rule have to specify that to be the case? (Does only ship blockades count)

    If a certain rule is not clearly the case in every hotseat, such as armies defeated from a player first in turn order are not allowed to move, then the rule should be specified for the hotseat specifically. For instance, what spies and siege equipment is allowed to do.
    Hence, the land unit blockading the port so that ships are not allowed to leave is not part of this rule.

    Then on to Jadli's options. Option C is definitely off the table for me, which leaves A or B. I'm fine with either one of those, however it might not be bad to align this rule in several hotseats out of convenience, so that we don't start mixing things up in different hotseats. (Which would plead for option B, 2 units per ship required). But as I said, fine with either A or B, but currently there is no rule preventing ships to leave a land-blockaded port, to be clear.
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  8. #1608
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    Default Re: [The Elder Scrolls - Unofficial Patch 1.42] Black Drake

    Alright, I guess everyone is voicing their opinion.

    Whatever you would consider the units blockading a port, right now the rule is a blanket rule. If you say if x happens then you can't do y, then if x happens, through anything at all, then you can't do y. Ships cannot leave blockaded ports, so if a port is blockaded, through any way, then the ship cannot leave the blockaded port. This argument aside, I vote B, so the compromise solution, but as it stands now, without changing the rule, I believe that land blockades count. Saying it doesn't, invites a lot of issues to rule interpretations, as then I can cheese any rule at all, because if it does not specify it, its allowed. Now, I DO NOT want to do this and as I said, I would argue for B. But rules work a certain way and saying that exceptions do not have to specified just does not make sense from a legalistic perspective

  9. #1609

    Default Re: [The Elder Scrolls - Unofficial Patch 1.42] Black Drake

    As I pointed out in DMs, and which you've quite noticeably avoided addressing, is that the 'ships cant leave blockaded ports' rule is one calling out a bug exploit. Your argument that it should cover ports 'blockaded' by a land unit is equivalent to claiming that fleets being able to move under those circumstances is also a bug, which you have already admitted you do not believe to be the case. Further, if that argument *were* to hold, it would imply the need to ban such movement across *all* hotseats, not just this one, against all precedent.

    You say you don't want to have to rules lawyer, but it sure does seem like you caught the slightest hint of opportunity and decided to draw it out into this whole mess.
    Last edited by Ventos Mustel; December 12, 2022 at 03:20 PM.

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  10. #1610
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    Default Re: [The Elder Scrolls - Unofficial Patch 1.42] Black Drake

    You will see me very quickly accept norway-s decision whatever he decides, because, as I pointed out in DM-s to you (in extension to saying that an unfavorable ruling to you means you can replay if you wish), it is not about the rule itself but about setting a precedent how to interpret rules. I've told this to you multiple times, I do not care about the verdict, this is not me trying to get an advantage, this is me trying to prevent a situation where interpreting a rule goes against logic. If it was anything else, I would have an issue with changing the rule to specify the exception, which I do not.

  11. #1611

    Default Re: [The Elder Scrolls - Unofficial Patch 1.42] Black Drake

    Of course you're willing to accept whichever ruling, you break even at worst calling into question an understanding that has held across every single hotseat in the history of this forum on the *chance* it gets you an advantage in a situation you've heard we might be relying on it.

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  12. #1612
    jimmy_dude's Avatar Libertus
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    Default Re: [The Elder Scrolls - Unofficial Patch 1.42] Black Drake

    In my experience option C has almost always been considered the default unless specifically stated otherwise in the rules, so if the rules only say that blockaded ships can't leave ports, then I imagine any unit would be enough to block the port.

  13. #1613
    Chieftain Khuzaymah's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: [The Elder Scrolls - Unofficial Patch 1.42] Black Drake

    Quote Originally Posted by Mergor View Post
    You will see me very quickly accept norway-s decision whatever he decides, because, as I pointed out in DM-s to you (in extension to saying that an unfavorable ruling to you means you can replay if you wish), it is not about the rule itself but about setting a precedent how to interpret rules. I've told this to you multiple times, I do not care about the verdict, this is not me trying to get an advantage, this is me trying to prevent a situation where interpreting a rule goes against logic. If it was anything else, I would have an issue with changing the rule to specify the exception, which I do not.
    Whatever the admin decides, a rule change usually is implemented only a turn later. I think that is appropriate also in this case.

    As for setting a precedent to interpret the rule, either we already have our decision or we get inconsistency in the rules. If there is any precedent, it is BD2, in which case the admin has no choice but to rule that 2 units on land are required to block 1 ship in the port.
    If he rules otherwise, he goes against BD2 and that wouldn't make captain's decision a precedent for me, but purely a BD1-based decision.

    BTW, welcome captain and enjoy your new responsibility as admin
    Last edited by Chieftain Khuzaymah; December 13, 2022 at 01:05 AM.
    Most Promising Youngblood TATW: Chieftain Khuzaymah


  14. #1614

    Default Re: [The Elder Scrolls - Unofficial Patch 1.42] Black Drake

    "Saying it doesn't, invites a lot of issues to rule interpretations, as then I can cheese any rule at all, because if it does not specify it, its allowed. Now, I DO NOT want to do this"

    It is very funny for you to say that as you did exactly the same move in BD2 (blocking port with land unites and saying that rules does not specify if the port must be blocked by ships). It seems if someone pull such move against you then it is unfair move, but if you use such move against someone other then it is 100% fair.

    "as then I can cheese any rule at all"

    You are constantly doing it anyway, particularly in this HS with last example being summoning Almelexia (where you openly skipped the condition under which you were supposed to be allowed to bring Almelexia back) saying the like "interpretation of if condition was fullfilled (even through very obviously it was not) is up for interpretation, debatable".

  15. #1615
    Captainnorway's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: [The Elder Scrolls - Unofficial Patch 1.42] Black Drake

    Thanks for having me, i hope to not be active XD

    Personaly i have noticed that more often than not, hotseats are allowing ports to be blocked by land units. This was also ruled in BD2, which is this hs but newer. I also find that land blockade is rarely used since it exposes units for attack, which means that the player being blockaded is usually weaker.

    I decide that the źnew standard╗ for blockading is 2 land units per 1 ship.

    The rules has a downtime of 1 full turn cycle, as is tradition.

  16. #1616
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    Default Re: [The Elder Scrolls - Unofficial Patch 1.42] Black Drake


  17. #1617
    General Dragon.'s Avatar Champion of Dragons
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    Default Re: [The Elder Scrolls - Unofficial Patch 1.42] Black Drake

    Apologies, several things contributed for this lateness. Anequina up!
    https://www.sendspace.com/file/f93t00

    https://imgur.com/a/9JRcDa9


    "The Dragon is wise, a sage among the ignorant. He knows not all that glitters is gold."

  18. #1618
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    Default Re: [The Elder Scrolls - Unofficial Patch 1.42] Black Drake


  19. #1619

    I am the Air Bud of Total War

  20. #1620
    jimmy_dude's Avatar Libertus
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    Default Re: [The Elder Scrolls - Unofficial Patch 1.42] Black Drake


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