Guides for BATTLES

[Jurand of Cracow]

I've come across a very interesting entry explaining some intricacies of one of the aspects of the M2TW engine (experience of the units). It's been posted in another part of the forum so it's likely to be overlooked by the SSHIP players. I'm starting this thread to make them also aware of this and similar interesting pieces of information. Please post below links to interesting entries posted elsewhere - I'll add them to the list.

Gaining experience by units (by paleologos)
Effectiveness of the archers (by Socrates 1984)
How to use missile cavalry (by Dough-Thompson)

There's a discussion on the EBII about how easy the battles are - a lot of interesting stuff is there.

A guide for the Roma Surrectum mod for the Rome TW provide a lot of useful advice.

[Roman31]

Reading the history of the Mongols and Turks, using horse Archer to beat out China, Middle East and Russia.

The funny is, I unable to simulate their tactics in the game using horse Archer as the main army force.

Archer hit like a mosquito bites, doesn't have a great impact on enemy army.

At the end, it's my horse Archer is being pursuing by enemy infantry all around the battle map, as I used all the arrows. Not it's supposed to be, where horse Archer should pursuing this infantry.

[Lifthrasir]

You need a minimum of infantry to hold position and to get enemy troops attention. You can use 1 or several horse archers to distract thier heavy cavalry. Once their troops are engaged against your infantry, you can use your horse archers to shoot them in the back.
The main "issue" by using horse archers that way is that it requiers quite a lot of micro-management during the battle (quite painful with large armies as you need to switch unit by unit all the time).

[Dekhatres]

Reading the history of the Mongols and Turks, using horse Archer to beat out China, Middle East and Russia.

The funny is, I unable to simulate their tactics in the game using horse Archer as the main army force.

Archer hit like a mosquito bites, doesn't have a great impact on enemy army.

At the end, it's my horse Archer is being pursuing by enemy infantry all around the battle map, as I used all the arrows. Not it's supposed to be, where horse Archer should pursuing this infantry.

horse archers are pretty much as they should be, you need to learn how to use them (and learn more history too)

[Roman31]

I read the history. Horse Archer used a kind of hit and run tactic, and the battle can took several days. Which is until the enemy is exhausted, that is when horse archers hit them hard. They just depend on horse and how, without any armor, able to defeat heavy infantry.

And this kind of battle is unable to be simulated with m2tw. As from what I experienced, m2tw battle is designed with European battlefield in mind. Which is the battle is straight and full blow. That is why Muslims and Steppe army seems unbalanced and the battle look very clumsy for them.

Horse Archer in m2tw is more like a decoration or variety, rather use them as the main army like in the real world, to conquer the world.

[Jurand of Cracow]

I read the history. Horse Archer used a kind of hit and run tactic, and the battle can took several days. Which is until the enemy is exhausted, that is when horse archers hit them hard. They just depend on horse and how, without any armor, able to defeat heavy infantry.

And this kind of battle is unable to be simulated with m2tw. As from what I experienced, m2tw battle is designed with European battlefield in mind. Which is the battle is straight and full blow. That is why Muslims and Steppe army seems unbalanced and the battle look very clumsy for them.

Horse Archer in m2tw is more like a decoration or variety, rather use them as the main army like in the real world, to conquer the world.

I actually agree with your opinions. M2TW engine is not fit to depict the steppe HA tactics. I think the Ultimate General game by DarthVader would do a better job (even if it depicts 19th c. warefare). However, it's a very different game.

Personally, I've just once bothered to play a HA-intensive faction (Hungarians with SS-BGR_IV) and it was indeed difficult to deal with the Byzantines. But it was also not much fun as far as micromanagement is concerned - too much of it.

Concerning history - well, while Mongols indeed conquered the steppes with inroads into another landscape (esp. Near East and Russia), most of the map in the M2TW was not conquered and there're other dominant ways of warfare. It was for a reason, I think. And M2TW engine is not the worst at presenting it.

[Dekhatres]

I read the history. Horse Archer used a kind of hit and run tactic, and the battle can took several days. Which is until the enemy is exhausted, that is when horse archers hit them hard. They just depend on horse and how, without any armor, able to defeat heavy infantry.

And this kind of battle is unable to be simulated with m2tw. As from what I experienced, m2tw battle is designed with European battlefield in mind. Which is the battle is straight and full blow. That is why Muslims and Steppe army seems unbalanced and the battle look very clumsy for them.

Horse Archer in m2tw is more like a decoration or variety, rather use them as the main army like in the real world, to conquer the world.

m2tw also doesnt simulate infantry fleeing in front of a heavy cavalry charge which was the europeans favorite cavalry tactic, european medieval strategy confirmed to be completely useless (sarcasm)

i can nitpick too, but whatever, in the end you either read the links in the op and learn to use HAs or keep getting rekt by the AI


this discussion came up before aswell, you might wanna read starting from this post

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...1#post14692809

[Pyres Δt Varanasi]

The Quillans Skirmish discovery has been my trick for years . I love that you don't have switch off skirmish to charge.

[Mamlaz]

Reading the history of the Mongols and Turks, using horse Archer to beat out China, Middle East and Russia.

The funny is, I unable to simulate their tactics in the game using horse Archer as the main army force.

Archer hit like a mosquito bites, doesn't have a great impact on enemy army.

At the end, it's my horse Archer is being pursuing by enemy infantry all around the battle map, as I used all the arrows. Not it's supposed to be, where horse Archer should pursuing this infantry.

I read the history. Horse Archer used a kind of hit and run tactic, and the battle can took several days. Which is until the enemy is exhausted, that is when horse archers hit them hard. They just depend on horse and how, without any armor, able to defeat heavy infantry.

And this kind of battle is unable to be simulated with m2tw. As from what I experienced, m2tw battle is designed with European battlefield in mind. Which is the battle is straight and full blow. That is why Muslims and Steppe army seems unbalanced and the battle look very clumsy for them.

Horse Archer in m2tw is more like a decoration or variety, rather use them as the main army like in the real world, to conquer the world.

1) There is not a single source describing the Mongols winning a battle through archery alone.
2) Mongol, like all steppe hordes, won battles by massive cavalry charges that were supported by skilled horse archers
3) A horse archer is like a close air support aircraft, not a WMD.
4) The vast majority of those battles lasted for mere hours to a day tops, very few passed a day.
5) At least at third to half your steppe cavalry force should be lancers.
6) The vast majority of horse archer battles happened nothing like Carrhae.
7) Git gut.

[Alavaria]

I actually agree with your opinions. M2TW engine is not fit to depict the steppe HA tactics. I think the Ultimate General game by DarthVader would do a better job (even if it depicts 19th c. warefare). However, it's a very different game.

One of the amusing things to do is fight HAs when you've got heavy infantry, you just stand in a big circle and absorb missiles in loose formation. I think the AI takes that as successful skirmishing and will empty all its ammo before deciding to melee in many cases.

Doesn't help that sometimes it has very lopsided army compositions with many (horse or foot) archers and not much else to back them up.

--------------

I did this to mongols to wipe their armys in 1v1s on open fields. Used my own cavalry like mounted infantry, when the AI lancers charge the spearmen they lack impact as the foot are in loose formation, then just quickly see them off with horse.

Concentrate on their heavy infantry first, they don't spawn with spearmen, it's all these heavy armor-piercing macemen that you want to whittle down because they can blob up into a really annoying mass, unlike their lancers. It would be funny to take a army with mostly plate armored halberds to fight them though, those might be able to just stand in all the arrows like "seems cloudy today"

[Dekhatres]

One of the amusing things to do is fight HAs when you've got heavy infantry, you just stand in a big circle and absorb missiles in loose formation. I think the AI takes that as successful skirmishing and will empty all its ammo before deciding to melee in many cases.

Doesn't help that sometimes it has very lopsided army compositions with many (horse or foot) archers and not much else to back them up.

bonus points if you put your heavy inf on top of a hill/mountain, arrows to less damage to units with higher ground

[toteking93]

I play a lot of costume battle with the Mongols and one campaign.

7 units of heavy lancers, 2 of heavy cavalry and the rest of the army archers on horseback


The tactic of the Mongols is completely achievable but it depends on several points. In campaign you must choose well the place where the battle takes place (something essential in real life too) to be able to take advantage of the advantage.


If you fight on a stage with large elevations of terrain or small mountains, the battle is practically yours. You always arrive first at the elevation with a group of 5 archers on horseback heavy (great advantage). On the other flank another group of 4 horse archers to attract the cavalry and chase you. If you are cautious you leave another group of 3/4 archers on horseback in the center next to the spearmen and the 2 cavalry units. They usually flee the enemy cavalry and in case they do not send a unit of heavy cavalry and another of spearmen practically annihilate all the rival cavalry.


To the flank on the hill hardly it is necessary to pay attention to him because they send archers and, sometimes, infantry that is very easy to flee and to be weakening.


At that point you send all the spearmen to the front and the archers on horseback (without ammunition) to load from the left and right flank.


In general, you always win with hardly any casualties.


But what has been said, the geography of the battle is always very important for these tactics.

[Tripledot]

On experience: I had a battle where one of my units didn't participate in any of the fighting (no casualties, no kills) but somehow gain an experience chevron. Is there an explanation for this?

[asapas]

I have the easiest battle level and still I cannot win battles. I have Byzantium and I am trying to fight either Sicilian rebels (at first), or the Serbians. However hard I try, I cannot win battles easily. I am placing spearmen,contaratoi etc in front lines, while I am using psiloi toxotes (archers) in the back line. Pronoarioi (cavalry) are to the side, as well as the Mounted Acritae (bow cavalry)However I really don't know what happens every time and they demolish me. Please, some tips regarding Byzantium would be helpful

[Jurand of Cracow]

well, I may only point at this entry. I don't know why you find it so difficult...

[asapas]

Because every time I lose. They have archers up in front, while I put them behind my spearmen. And in the sides I have the cavalry. However, Roman Empire doesn't have a lot of cavalry units. It is mostly comprised of archers and missile units, either on foot or horse riders.

However, their forces stomp on my spearmen easily and then chase them, and my archers cannot do so much damage.

[Macaras]

REPETITIO EST MATER STUDIORUM

[romulus_aeneas]

I have the easiest battle level and still I cannot win battles. I have Byzantium and I am trying to fight either Sicilian rebels (at first), or the Serbians. However hard I try, I cannot win battles easily. I am placing spearmen,contaratoi etc in front lines, while I am using psiloi toxotes (archers) in the back line. Pronoarioi (cavalry) are to the side, as well as the Mounted Acritae (bow cavalry)However I really don't know what happens every time and they demolish me. Please, some tips regarding Byzantium would be helpful

Hi asapas. I'll try to provide some assistance. First, remember that in this era cavalry is king. For almost every faction in this mod, you want to utilize hammer and anvil tactics. Use your spearmen to hold the enemy in place while your cavalry swing to the rear and "cycle charge". Your spearmen should be able to hold long enough for your cavalry to flank the enemy. Use your general's bodyguard to similar effect. Use one unit of light cavalry - if available - to cycle charge the enemy's unprotected missile troops. In SSHIP, most rebel armies lack heavy cavalry in the early game unless they're in major settlements like Flanders, northern Italy, etc. This means you should have cavalry superiority and be able to practice hammer and anvil tactics without much worry. Finally, I recommend positioning your missile troops on the wings of your spearmen and infantry (but only if the enemy has no cavalry). This allows you to move your archers behind the enemy's infantry and shoot them from the rear if for some reason your cavalry cannot flank or are otherwise engaged.

As for fighting the Serbians, I recommend recruiting plenty of spearmen to counter their large cavalry contingents. Keep your cavalry positioned directly behind your line to invite the enemy cavalry into a direct engagement with your spearmen and then bring your cavalry around the flanks when the Serbian cavalry are engaged. You can also bait their cavalry into a foolish charge by sacrificing a unit of archers in the open field to draw them out.

Army composition is important but difficult to maintain in SSHIP because of the increased upkeep costs. Get familiar with using levy spearmen to hold enemy infantry in place (usually by fighting in favorable terrain, such as from a hill top or against the enemy's flank). Any professional or feudal infantry - such as your swordsmen units or Varangian guards - should be used sparingly to fill holes in the main line or to shadow the enemy's strongest units so your levy infantry aren't overwhelmed. Have a unit of light cavalry in the early game to wipe out enemy missile troops. The Byzantine's can also recruit horse-archers and these will absolutely wreck European factions early game because of their units' limited armor statistics. Also, don't hesitate to recruit mercenary units to help bolster your army for a battle and then immediately disband them to avoid the burdensome upkeep costs.

Hopefully these points help a bit! If you keep struggling on the campaign map, replicate the battle conditions in the Custom Battle mode and practice some different tactics until you feel you have a grasp on things. As I said above, you will win 90% of battles in this mod (and any Total War, really) just by using your infantry to hold the enemy in place while your cavalry cycle charges from the rear.

[asapas]

Thank you very much for your detailed response!! Implementing one and only strategy is a monotonous thing to do, however I will try and experiment myself with other tactics! You have been very helpful!!

[asapas]

And something else...I notice that Serbians have a lot of heavy units, which is pretty bad for me in battles. Seem that I cannot do anything with my light only units. So, should I proceed to upgrade my units first before attacking them?

Also, they seem to have a lot of men (900+), while engaging them with my 300-500 men, always lead to heavy losses and my general's dying. I mean is there a way for this game to defeat your opponents while outnumbered like this?