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  1. #1

    Default Don't ask don't tell baker recants.

    Quote Originally Posted by CNN
    WASHINGTON (AP) -- The Army general who was Joint Chiefs chairman when the Pentagon adopted its "don't ask, don't tell" policy on gays says he no longer opposes allowing them to serve openly.

    John Shalikashvili, who retired in 1997 after four years as the nation's top military officer, had argued that allowing homosexuals to serve openly would hurt troop morale and recruitment and undermine the cohesion of combat units. He said he has changed his mind after meeting with gay servicemen.

    "These conversations showed me just how much the military has changed, and that gays and lesbians can be accepted by their peers," Shalikashvili wrote in an opinion piece in Tuesday's New York Times.

    His view could carry weight at a time when advocates of lifting the restriction on gay service members argue that the military -- under the strain of fighting two wars -- can ill-afford to exclude any qualified volunteers.

    It's not clear, however, how much enthusiasm Congress will have for pressing the matter. While many Democrats have denounced the policy as discriminatory, many Republicans have supported it, and members may be reluctant to revisit such a divisive issue. Sen. John McCain, R-Arizona, a possible presidential contender in 2008, recently called the military policy "very effective."

    Rep. Marty Meehan on Tuesday hailed Shalikashvili's article and said he would try this year to revive legislation forcing the military to eliminate the policy. In 2005, Meehan, D-Massachusetts, introduced a similar bill, which eventually attracted 122 co-sponsors, including Republican Chris Shays of Connecticut and Independent Bernard Sanders of Vermont.

    "There is no place in this country for discrimination, be it on the basis of race, creed or sexual orientation, and there is certainly no place for institutional discrimination codified in federal statute," Meehan said in a statement.

    The current policy, based on legislation passed by Congress in 1993 after a firestorm of debate, states that gays and lesbians may serve in the military only if they keep their sexual orientation private. Commanders may not ask, and gay service members may not tell. Over the years, thousands have been dismissed under this policy.

    Shalikashvili is not the first former senior military officer to change his mind about gays in the military, though he is perhaps the most prominent. John Hutson, a retired two-star Navy admiral who was the Navy's top lawyer, said Tuesday he thinks the nation has undergone so much cultural change over the past decade that allowing gays to serve openly in the military would enhance rather than weaken the cohesion of fighting units.

    "I think it will absolutely happen," Hutson said in a telephone interview, but probably not during the Bush administration.

    Shalikashvili said he expects fierce debate over gays in the military this year as Congress considers President Bush's call for expanding the size of the Army, which is stretched thin by wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

    Shalikashvili cautioned, however, against pushing for repeal of the ban early in the new Congress, which he said should be focused on urgent priorities like developing a better strategy in Iraq and healing divisions over the war.

    "Fighting early in this Congress to lift the ban on openly gay service members is not likely to add to that healing and it risks alienating people whose support is needed to get this country on the right track," he wrote in the Times article.

    In explaining his shift on the issue, Shalikashvili also cited a new Zogby poll, commissioned by the Michael D. Palm Center at the University of California at Santa Barbara, of 545 U.S. troops who served in Iraq and Afghanistan. It reported that three quarters said they were comfortable around gay men and lesbians.

    The poll, published in December, also said 37 percent opposed allowing gays to serve openly, while 26 percent said they should be allowed and 37 percent were unsure or neutral. Of those who said they were certain that a member of their unit was gay or lesbian, two-thirds did not believe it hurt morale.

    C. Dixon Osburn, executive director of Servicemembers Legal Defense Network, an advocate for gay rights, called Shalikashvili's article "enormously significant." Osburn said it reflects a growing trend of military leaders supporting repeal of the "don't ask, don't tell" policy.

    Copyright 2007 The Associated Press. All rights reserved.This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.
    http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/01/....ap/index.html

    Opinions?

  2. #2

    Default Re: Don't ask don't tell baker recants.

    their reasons for don't ask don't tell (hurt troop morale and recruitment and undermine the cohesion of combat units) are exactly the same reasons they used against black recruits in the 50s, and look how many blacks serve effectively in the military today


    not to mention that its hardly don't ask don't tell.
    there's plenty of situations where the military does indeed "ask" in various ways, and then kicks the person out afterward...


    unsurprisngly, the policy has been enfgorced less stringently since 2001, with 668 duischarges under the policy in 2004 compared to an all time high of 1271 in 2001. the US Government Accountability Office puts the overall cost of don't ask don't tell at $200 Million since 1993

    According to an analysis of 2000 census data by statistician Gary Gates, there are currently 65,000 gays serving in the armed forces. Also according to Gates, an additional 41,000 lesbian and gay Americans may enlist for military service if the ban were repealed
    Last edited by the Black Prince; January 03, 2007 at 10:43 AM.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Don't ask don't tell baker recants.

    it wouldn't exactly be hard to root out the gay person.

    like when its shower time and theres only one person standing in the corner with a raging hard-on trying to hide it.

    it would be pretty easy to spot who was gay in the army.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Don't ask don't tell baker recants.

    oh please.... *shakes head in disbelief*

  5. #5

    Default Re: Don't ask don't tell baker recants.

    :laughing:

    oh c'mon.....develop a sense of humour.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Don't ask don't tell baker recants.

    So a person with a hard on in a communal shower is automatically gay? That only covers men tho, so what about women?

  7. #7

    Default Re: Don't ask don't tell baker recants.

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Revan View Post
    So a person with a hard on in a communal shower is automatically gay? That only covers men tho, so what about women?
    i'm not sure women have penises raven.
    although i might have to double check.:hmmm:

  8. #8
    Farnan's Avatar Saviors of the Japanese
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    Default Re: Don't ask don't tell baker recants.

    Umm... Duke, we try not to even look when we're in the shower...

    I'd have little problem with open Gays and Lesbians serving in Aviation, not combat positions in the Corps of Engineers, Combat Support (Military Police Corps, Military Intelligance Corps, Chemical Corps, Signal Corps, Civil Affairs I believe, Psyops also I believe) or Combat Service Support (Transportation, Adjutant General's Corps, Medical Service Corps, Nurse Corps, Finance, Ordance Corps, Quatermaster Corps, Transportation, Public Affairs I believe is in this category), but I would have a problem with them in Combat Arms (bar Aviation) (Armor, Cavalry, Artillery, Air Defense Artillery, Infantry, Special Forces, Combat Engineers). The only reason I'd have a problem with them in Combat Arms is the same reason as I'd have a problem with women, and that is sexual tension may weaken unit cohesion...
    “The nation that will insist upon drawing a broad line of demarcation between the fighting man and the thinking man is liable to find its fighting done by fools and its thinking by cowards.”

    —Sir William Francis Butler

  9. #9

    Default Re: Don't ask don't tell baker recants.

    I'm simply pointing out the flaw in your previous statement, and pointing out its biasness and discrimination towards women in the military and lesbians...

    And women can have a penis, they are called transgenders.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Don't ask don't tell baker recants.

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Revan View Post
    I'm simply pointing out the flaw in your previous statement, and pointing out its biasness and discrimination towards women in the military and lesbians...

    And women can have a penis, they are called transgenders.
    if a woman has a penis then she is not a woman nor a man.She/he is an 'inbetween'

    thats a good question though.

    if a transgender has a female face and boobs but has a schlong what changing rooms should she/he go into?

    interesting proposition.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Don't ask don't tell baker recants.

    Farnan, the sexual tension argument doesn't play out the same it is with women

    bulk of men in the unit are straight, they're going to be after the woman, she may want one or more of them. the problem with women, as its always been described in the UK, is the woman forming an attachment within a unit, and soldiers then being reluctant to follow orders in situations where it may put their girlfriend in harms way etc.

    a gay man in a unit would have to find another gay man... we don't waste our time chasing straight men, afterall, wtf's the point?

    the Duke, in the UK, they have a choice. its down to them how best to gender define themselves

  12. #12
    Farnan's Avatar Saviors of the Japanese
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    Default Re: Don't ask don't tell baker recants.

    Quote Originally Posted by the Black Prince View Post
    Farnan, the sexual tension argument doesn't play out the same it is with women

    bulk of men in the unit are straight, they're going to be after the woman, she may want one or more of them. the problem with women, as its always been described in the UK, is the woman forming an attachment within a unit, and soldiers then being reluctant to follow orders in situations where it may put their girlfriend in harms way etc.

    a gay man in a unit would have to find another gay man... we don't waste our time chasing straight men, afterall, wtf's the point?

    the Duke, in the UK, they have a choice. its down to them how best to gender define themselves
    tBP, I'm not neccessarily the fact that the gay guy will go after a straight guy, but in Combat Arms units there is a particular closeness, we shower together, we go nut-to-butt at times, we make fun of each other jokingly, we look out for each other, and there is something about a CA unit thats hard to explain. Taking a shower with a gay guy is kinda the same as taking a shower with a woman in the uncomfortability aspect...

    The problem is the US Army is far too PC with regards to sexual harrassment. What I mean about that, is sometimes your afraid of what you say may be taken wrongly and you can be put in jail. Stuff that isn't really meant how its heard, with a gay guy in the unit it sorta adds a tension that people would be afraid to say the wrong thing and get busted for sexual harrassment. You get what I mean tBP? In CA that kind of thing just hurts cohesion, in other groups it doesn't matter as much since cohesion isn't as important.

    Just so you know, I kinda suggested the same policy used for women in the Army...
    “The nation that will insist upon drawing a broad line of demarcation between the fighting man and the thinking man is liable to find its fighting done by fools and its thinking by cowards.”

    —Sir William Francis Butler

  13. #13

    Default Re: Don't ask don't tell baker recants.

    Get the gays in the military. All of them, if possible. Better to have them being gay doing something constructive, than being gay in their parades annoying me.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Don't ask don't tell baker recants.

    Always hated the rule, if someone is willing to sign up and risk their life for their country who cares who they are screwing. All that matters in the end is the conduct of the solider, male, female, straight or gay...if you are acting properly the rest doesnt matter. It was a cop out by the Clinton admin, if gays are a 'threat' to the military why would you allow them in even under dont ask/dont tell and if they arent a threat why in the world wouldnt you allow them?

  15. #15

    Default Re: Don't ask don't tell baker recants.

    Jokes are fine.

    But TWC is not a forum for gay-bashing or transgender-bashing or anything of the sort, and anything that crosses the line will be dealt with.

    Also, don't spam. I don't like excessive, tasteless spam, and neither does the TOS.
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  16. #16

    Default Re: Don't ask don't tell baker recants.

    the evidence points otherwise though...

    take al ook at the US reports on letting gays into the British and Canadian armed forces, and the zero difference it made (especially since they'd always been there anyway)

  17. #17
    Farnan's Avatar Saviors of the Japanese
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    Default Re: Don't ask don't tell baker recants.

    How about if you're going to do this, you start with allowing them in Combat Support and Combat Service Support first, see how that works, and then use that to decide what to do next?

    Remember American and British/Canadian culture is different...
    “The nation that will insist upon drawing a broad line of demarcation between the fighting man and the thinking man is liable to find its fighting done by fools and its thinking by cowards.”

    —Sir William Francis Butler

  18. #18

    Default Re: Don't ask don't tell baker recants.

    tell me about it...
    hard to believe that in the land of the free, the land of liberty and justice, i'm forbidden from marrying who i love, forbidden from working where i want, subject to harassment because of who i am etc
    i guess your vauinted human rights and stuff about discrimination only apply to a select and limited group of your society.

    if american troops can't serve with a gay man without being scared they might get raped, its very clear to see where the problem is.

  19. #19

    Default Re: Don't ask don't tell baker recants.

    Quote Originally Posted by the Black Prince View Post
    tell me about it...
    hard to believe that in the land of the free, the land of liberty and justice, i'm forbidden from marrying who i love, forbidden from working where i want, subject to harassment because of who i am etc
    Various states have adopted same sex unions. Forbidden from working where you want? Er where? The military yes (and needs to be changed as my above post) but anything else would fall into violations of discrimination laws. Harassment because of who you are? Sorry but the plight of gays are not like harassment of say blacks in the past and far too often overblown. You are always going to run into idiots who hate you for something you believe, do etc...no group in the world is immune to that.

    if american troops can't serve with a gay man without being scared they might get raped, its very clear to see where the problem is.
    That is a bit unfair, there has to be a middle ground between the rights of homosexuals AND the rights of straights. We have so many laws protecting the rights of women in the US from undue harassment and privacy issues but yet a male is expected to just deal with it regardless of the situation. Simply being made to feel uncomfortable is grounds for a lawsuit for a woman but yet a straight male is expected to not be a 'homophobe' and deal with it. There needs to be a middle ground where everyones rights are protected, no ones rights should supersede anyone's else's...and that itself is the core problem for many gays that their rights are pushed aside but the solution isnt to push it back the other way.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Don't ask don't tell baker recants.

    i wonder how far i can push america's discrimination laws here.
    anywhere in europe, if i was a qualified teacher, and applied to work in a catholic school, that school cannot refuse to employ me on grounds of sexuality unless the post required me to provide religious instruction which my sexuality might prevent me from doing. thats an ECJ ruling. Basically what its saying is that a catholic school cannot prevent a gay maths teacher from teaching maths simply because he is gay.

    would the same result occur in america? hmmm

    as for american civil unions
    no civil union is recognised by the federal government (Defence of Marriage Act) 1996
    only 1 state recognises marriage, 4 states have equal unions and 3 others have some form of union.
    good record there...

    as for harassment, your laws seem rather silly.

    in the UK, we just have 2 laws, the Harassment Act which prohibits all form of harassment, and make it a criminal offence. the act applies equally to all people.
    we also have 5 equal treatment directives, which are being merged into the Recast Equal Treatment Directive effective from augusst 2009, this applies only to sexual harassment in the workplace, but is gender neutral, offering equal protection to men and women. the directive is based on Articles 2 3 13 and 141 of the Treaty of Rome (1957) (as amended by the Treaty of Amsterdam 1997) which make equality between men and women a fundamental principle.

    Art 13 of the amended Treaty of Rome also bans all discrimination based on sexual orientation, and it was under this article that the first challenge to a european armed force banning gays from serving was sucessful.

    If a gay man harasses male collegues in the workplace, thats clearly harassment and should be dealt with. that US law doesn't allow men to complain about harassment is not a reason to ban gay people from certain jobs, its a reason to use some common sense and adopt some basic equal treatment laws.
    just having gay men in a unit isn't an abuse of a straight mans rights, and its absurd to even suggest such a thing. if my mere presense is taken as harassment by my co-workers, whatever the profession, then thats their problem not mine, and one perhaps they ought to get sorted out.

    both the DUKE and Farnan mention communal showers...
    so what?
    its very common in american schools for communal showers isn't it? given that about 1 in 20 people are gay, and that most people realise they are gay between 13 and 16, i'd almost guarantee you've shared a shower with a gay teenager, whether you've known it or not. just because a gay mans in the shower with you doesn't mean he's going to make a move on you

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