Sabean Reform Question and Campaign Comments

[Geffalrus]

First off, this campaign has been a good amount of fun. Not as hectic in the early game as with other factions I've tried. And once I got the 2-3 neighboring cities occupied, I gained a fairly decent income. The Khamis might be my favorite unit in the entire mod. Excellent background information, good replenishment, solid stats, and lots of battlefield utility. It's sad to have no factional cavalry or top tier melee infantry like Hypaspists/Elite Peltasts, but the Khamis largely makes up for that.

Of course, I'd really like to be able to recruit them in more than just Maryab, which seems only possible if I trigger the Saba reform. So..........

The 2.3 guide says that I only have to have a FM govern a settlement with Eastern Tribal less than 30 outside of Southern Arabia. Well, I conquered Ethiopia and that had less than 30.......and nothing happened. The reform guide listed more complicated......sort of unclear......information like needing to have over 30 Eastern Imperial culture - and the Bondsmen to the King government (requires 40 Eastern Imperial) to trigger the reform.

So yeah, I'm confused. Can someone walk me through the reform process for the Sabeans? The way I'm reading things in the guides confuses me rather than helps, I'm afraid.

Thanks!

[Colos1987]

"The reform to empire seems tied to culture. If one of your characters ends his turn in a settlement not too far from the capital (approximately 3 provinces away. For example, Timna works (Thanks Wulfburk)) that has less than 30% of your culture in it, the reform triggers. The settlement additionally needs an "'Adīm Malkān (Bondsmen of the king)" or "Mahrab Malkān (Royal Court)" government for the reform to trigger. Both of these require a certain level of EI to become available (40 and 60% respectively, the latter only buildable after the reform, but already present in Maryab), which can be attained through temples to Almuqah.

Tips
Once the reform happens, your main culture becomes Eastern imperial. The reform unlocks for you the government building you start with in Maryab. To build it in a province you need Eastern imperial to be 60% of the culture of that province. Temples of Almagah raise the Eastern imperial culture.
Thanks Wulfburk!"

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...ents-as-at-2-3

[Geffalrus]

Yes, I know, I saw and read that guide. It still did not make sense to me.

For example: how is Timna, the city right next to Maryab classed as 3 provinces away? That makes no sense as written.

Why is the Royal Court even mentioned as something that will trigger the reform if it is only unlocked for other settlements by the reform? That makes no sense.

The guides say that the settlement needs to be outside of Southern Arabia - how does Timna possible qualify?

Thank you, but copy-pasting the guide was not the help I was looking for.

[Electricity]

This is the code for the Saba reforms in the campaign script of v. 2.3:

monitor_event CharacterTurnEndInSettlement FactionType f_saba
    and DistanceCapital < 3
    and PopulationOwnReligion < 30
    and SettlementBuildingExists > saba_clients
    set_event_counter ecSabaImperial 1
    historic_event HE_SABA_IMPERIAL factions { f_saba, }
    set_religion f_saba rel_c
    terminate_monitor
end_monitor

So lets break it down:
- You need to have a character, probably a family member end his turn in a settlement.
- The settlement needs to be in a region neighbouring the capital or in one of the neighbours neighbours regions (I think this is what it means with distance less than 3). The settlement needs to be less than 3 tiles away from the capital.
- The settlement must have less than 30% of your religion, which is eastern tribal at the start.
- The settlements government building has to be higher level than saba_clients, which would be saba_bond or saba_royal (don't have a localisation for these buildings sorry!).

I hope this helps

[Geffalrus]

Thanks, that is very helpful!

So basically the reform is about expanding the core of the Saba kingdom beyond Maryab (which makes sense). If the measurement is from the capital. would it happen if I moved the capital to, say, Antioch, and then moved an FM into a neighboring city to Antioch with proper culture amounts and the Saba_bond government? Just curious because that would obviously be more difficult to actually pull off. It does sound like converting Timna to 40% Eastern Imperial is the way to go because that allows Saba_bond and Eastern Tribal below 30%. Which, I'm now at in Timna - just need to build Saba_bond (which is rather expensive and time consuming, sigh).

If I could make a suggestion, the advice contained in the 2.3 player guide and the compiled 2.3 Reform guide (linked above) needs to be updated. The player guide literally says that the FM needs to be in a settlement outside Southern Arabia, which is completely incorrect based on the above section of code. At the very least it's highly misleading. To make the reform guide located on the forum more accurate, it should include a reference to how the player guide is incorrect, otherwise you have players like me getting really confused by conflicting pieces of information.

Something like the following statement: "The player guide is misleading/incorrect. Have a family member govern a settlement close to Maryab like Timna or Zafar (Timna probably the easiest). The settlement must have Eastern Tribal culture below 30%, Eastern Imperial at 40% or higher, and the Bondsman to the King government. Then the reform will trigger."

[YourMadDoc]

Shouldn't it be DistanceCapital > 3 then? It would fit the condition from the guide. Right now you capture nearby provinces, upgrade government and place FM there, which is what I would do anyway as a first thing and reforms are complete. I like condition to capture province outside Southern Arabia, establish a government and place FM there more.

[Geffalrus]

It depends on what the script is trying to represent as evolving in Sabean politics. My interpretation would be that at the start of the game, only Maryab and its citizens have full political rights (socio-economic status depending, of course). All conquered cities are automatically lower in the internal political ranking of the growing Sabean hegemony/empire/kingdom/etc. This is represented by the government tier buildings. This hierarchy is similar to Rome's expansion through Italy where Italian allies did - not - have the same political rights as Roman citizens (mostly an issue for the upper class). In the Roman case, the granting of expanded citizenship to Italian allies as a whole came as a result of Roman territorial expansion, war, and the Social War.

The Sabeans don't need to have exactly the same progression, though some elements might work.

To build the top level government, the one that grants the same political status as Maryab, a culture level of 60% Eastern Imperial is required, just like it is now. Sabean culture is Eastern Tribal at the start of the game. Temples of Almaqah increase Eastern Imperial. Eastern Imperial represents a particular way of looking at political participation and power compared to Eastern Tribal. My suggestion: remove the lock on the top tier government. Option 1 for expanding the top level government would simply be to use the temples to slowly boost Eastern Imperial in Southern Arabia and then build the top level government. Option 2 is through a triggered reform tied to Sabean expansion beyond Southern Arabia. Maybe that trigger is the conquest of X number of settlements outside Southern Arabia. Or maybe its the conquest of a settlement with a high level of Eastern Imperial or a low level of Eastern Tribal. Whatever the way is, the logic is that this represents Saba changing as a result of "overseas" military conquest. This trigger would change Saba culture from Eastern Tribal to Eastern Imperial, at which point my understanding is that this would slowly shift the culture to EI 60% and then - voila - the top level government can be constructed.

Option 1 doesn't require any scripting, and works with the natural limitations of the government building. Option 2 would use a simpler trigger than what is currently in use and maybe make more sense from a historical modeling perspective? If the devs would like to chime in to give a peek at what the goal of the current reform scrip is, that would probably clear things up too.

[Kull]

Shouldn't it be DistanceCapital > 3 then? It would fit the condition from the guide. Right now you capture nearby provinces, upgrade government and place FM there, which is what I would do anyway as a first thing and reforms are complete. I like condition to capture province outside Southern Arabia, establish a government and place FM there more.

I think you are right. We're discussing now.

[YourMadDoc]

Ì use DistanceCapital too, but with larger values so I was curious how much distance it is. I did a test and trigger DistanceCapital > 10 fired before I was able to reach Zafar, Najran, or Shabwat. So it seems Timna is the only settlement with DistanceCapital<3. It case it should exclude Southern Arabia it needs to be at least 15 or so.

[Geffalrus]

If that's going to be the case - upgrading a settlement outside of S. Arabia to Saba_Bond - then maybe give just a bit more information in the guides about how to do that. The process of getting to Saba_Bond takes a bit more than just building one government after another. What are the effects of different levels of Almaqah? Are there city level and other building requirements? There's stuff there that you only learn as you go through that would be nice to know ahead of time as you plan things out.

[YourMadDoc]

Trigger DistanceCapital > 15 fired when I was near Najran, but DistanceCapital > 3 fired before I was able to reach borders with Timna so I'm even more confused as I was before.

If that's going to be the case - upgrading a settlement outside of S. Arabia to Saba_Bond - then maybe give just a bit more information in the guides about how to do that. The process of getting to Saba_Bond takes a bit more than just building one government after another. What are the effects of different levels of Almaqah? Are there city level and other building requirements? There's stuff there that you only learn as you go through that would be nice to know ahead of time as you plan things out.

Seleucia has an imperial culture so I would expand there. Maybe it means you need to fight them to get reform.

[Geffalrus]

Yeah, yeah, I'll just fight the Grey Death with my light infantry and negligible cavalry. No problem. I can knock that out before lunch. ;-)

It's actually not a bad suggestion - I just find the idea of blithely fighting the Seleucids kind of funny. XD

[YourMadDoc]

You dont have to win that war, just to protect settlement or two until you can place a governor there and then you can retreat and reform. And it would be quite rewarding after such an achievement.

Also, when you reach their territory you will have a quite an empire behind. When I was playing as Nabateans I have beaten Saba, Ptolemaioi, Seleukea, Pahlava, Saka Rauka and most of Takshasilla territory with a nomadic king and his two brothers before I had first reform. They have also only light infantry, but at least they have good horsearchers.

[Moros]

The distance is measured in tiles, IIRC

[BHL 20]

Yeah, yeah, I'll just fight the Grey Death with my light infantry and negligible cavalry. No problem. I can knock that out before lunch. ;-)

It's actually not a bad suggestion - I just find the idea of blithely fighting the Seleucids kind of funny. XD

In my view the difficulty isn't problem - it's always possible to figure out something against the AI. The problem is historical realism. No offense to people who don't roleplay and have no problem expanding anywhere with any faction, but forcing all players (who try to play a Saba campaign) to attack a large empire like the Seleucids with a small, southern arabian, and historically unexpansionist kingdom is not a good idea for a mod like this.

[Geffalrus]

In my view the difficulty isn't problem - it's always possible to figure out something against the AI. The problem is historical realism. No offense to people who don't roleplay and have no problem expanding anywhere with any faction, but forcing all players (who try to play a Saba campaign) to attack a large empire like the Seleucids with a small, southern arabian, and historically unexpansionist kingdom is not a good idea for a mod like this.

Hence why I suggested a change to the reform. If the player wants a more historical Saba development where they don't go too far initially beyond uniting Southern Arabia, they can manage that by focusing on changing to Eastern Imperial using Temples to Almaqah. If the player wants to be more aggressive, the game rewards their initiative by making the change easier through changing the base culture of Saba to the Eastern Imperial that allows building of the top tier government.

I am not in favor of forcing the player to conquer far afield - AND - spend a fortune and years building governments just to unlock the Saba top tier government for Southern Arabian cities. I think that's a bit much, and difficulty for difficulty's sake.

[QuintusSertorius]

There's still some elite units to come for Saba - the settled Bedouin will be their proper heavies, and they have some noble camelry too.

The reform isn't expecting you to take some distant place that's not rel_d, it's a settlement within 3 tiles of your capital (which the script is assuming to be Maryab). As in one of the nearby settlements has a saba_bond and drops below 30% rel_d. You achieve the reform by changing your neighbours, not roving off to attack the Seleukids.

[Geffalrus]

That sounds great. The Saba can have a little trouble when trying to melee their way into a tight space (gate, wall, etc). Not the end of the world, but great to hear that they'll get a decent option for dealing with that soon.

Thanks for clarifying the intent of the reform. And that sounds better than converting or conquering a settlement far away.

[intifadanyz]

I already have FM in Timna. Culture Eastern tribal in Timna already 29% and already have Adim Malkan in that settlement. However the reform is not triggered.

[alex33]

There's still some elite units to come for Saba - the settled Bedouin will be their proper heavies, and they have some noble camelry too.

Wow that sounds great! In what way are settled Bedouins heavy infantry? I would never think of bedouins as heavy what equipment do they carry to be counted as heavy?

What are the Noble Camel Cav? They are probably mounted archers but are they noble saba/southern arabian citizenry riding to battle or are they bedouins?