a worrying development in modding

[Gigantus]

LOL, while the Three Kingdoms T-shirt was indeed based on my mod, all profits were going toward the site's maintenance. eg. while the sale might promote the mod I (or any of my team members) did not receive any funds from it.

[PikeStance]

okay cool.

Didnt you guys make and sell Rise of the Three Kingdoms T-shirts? isnt that basically the same concept? buy this (shirt), support our mod.

Apart from the fact that you never bothered to read the store page and that Gig made it abundantly clear, I still see a huge difference between monetizing a mod that relies on published work and commercializing your mod by selling merchandise.

In the end, there isn't any reason why a mod cannot create its own website with an option to donate and buy promotional products there.

[Leonardo]

...but to me it is normal for a mod to die and be continued by someone else.

That's exactly what modding is all about, a hobby without letting money to control what's gonna be created or not.

I hope this can continue with newer games.

Me too, but unfortunately I doubt that consider the fact that new players will be interested to play the newer games and the same thing also applies for modders. Veteran modders retires and new modders arise.

The time will always change and everything that happen in a modding community will also change, regardless what this one have to say about it.

[Havie]

Three Kingdoms can mean many things. The code included in a game's software is a bit different from a T Shirt with a logo. I know you are trying to support your position, but please do not do so to extremes. It only make your case appear weaker and does nothing to further your position.

I dont think this is an extreme statement in any regards.
I am just simply asking if Gigantus team did fundraising for their mod by selling T-shirts with the Rise of the Three Kingdoms mod Logo on them. I swear I remember seeing this somewhere, and I think it plays a valid point in the slight difference of gray areas in the thread.
I don't see at all how this makes my case weaker. If i have to make T-shirts.. ill do it, maybe Ill make pencils, idk?

LOL, while the Three Kingdoms T-shirt was indeed based on my mod, all profits were going toward the site's maintenance. eg. while the sale might promote the mod I (or any of my team members) did not receive any funds from it.

Apart from the fact that you never bothered to read the store page and that Gig made it abundantly clear, I still see a huge difference between monetizing a mod that relies on published work and commercializing your mod by selling merchandise.

In the end, there isn't any reason why a mod cannot create its own website with an option to donate and buy promotional products there.

Okay I didnt know or look into it much,
Also,
I think alot of people are missing the point here... No one is trying to commercialize or monetize their mods and make profits.
Im straight up looking for donations to help fund more work on the mod.. lol jesus...
Its seriously not much different than fundraising for the TWSite by selling T-shirts.

Same concept, the Mods free to the public- please donate if you like it.
OR
Love the mod and want to see it develop but you suck at modding- donate to help hire out the work.

I personally spent ~$1,200 on my ROTK mod thus far. All of my own free-will and my choosing because its my hobby. Im not begging, but having some help going further doesn't make me a greedy crook?

[Leonardo]

I think alot of people are missing the point here... No one is trying to commercialize or monetize their mods and make profits.

Love the mod and want to see it develop but you suck at modding- donate to help hire out the work.

This doesn't make sense.

[izzi]

Okay guys, i think what Havie wants to say is that there can be a possibility to donate to a mod. WITHOUT any obligation. Me as a modder will find this helpful to, if we could add a donation button (paypal for example) for support. But, without interfering our work for the mod. I think this is reasonable to ask. No obligation, but you can donate.

[PikeStance]

Okay I didnt know or look into it much,
Also,
I think alot of people are missing the point here... No one is trying to commercialize or monetize their mods and make profits.
Im straight up looking for donations to help fund more work on the mod.. lol jesus...
Its seriously not much different than fundraising for the TWSite by selling T-shirts.

Same concept, the Mods free to the public- please donate if you like it.
OR
Love the mod and want to see it develop but you suck at modding- donate to help hire out the work.

I personally spent ~$1,200 on my ROTK mod thus far. All of my own free-will and my choosing because its my hobby. Im not begging, but having some help going further doesn't make me a greedy crook?

Do you really want to have the same discussion over again?
Modding is a hobby. If it took time-consuming for you, then do something else. Do what you love to do. The game isn't yours, it is CA's game. If you want to create games, do what Darth Vader and his team did and create their own game.
When I did ACW re-enacting, I paid for everything. The host event would charge money, but I didn't expect any payment.

[Theramines]

No one is trying to commercialize or monetize their mods and make profits.

Currently, one can neither prove nor disprove this. However, at the top of my head there are a couple of hosted mods on this forum whose practices appear to contradict this statement.

I personally spent ~$1,200 on my ROTK mod thus far. All of my own free-will and my choosing because its my hobby. Im not begging, but having some help going further doesn't make me a greedy crook?

Every summer I've paid hundreds of dollars for equipment and fees to participate in club cricket. Next time some some passers by sits down to watch a few overs, I'll just shuffle over cap in hand and request a little contribution.

[Havie]

This doesn't make sense.

I'll try to clarify this for you.

Getting things done in a timely manor costs money.
I am just one man.

Need a custom model that doesnt exist on the internet/you dont have access to?:
you need to hire a 3d modeler- that costs ~$300 for a quality model.

I had a rare model ripped mid animation from its Original game, he was riding a horse. I had to get this model into T-pose to be rigged into S2. I didnt know how to clean up geometry that sloppy, so I had to hire a 3d artist to do it and make me a tutorial so I could learn how.

My ROTKv2.0 has over 326 custom models that needed to be rigged into S2. You know how the models are read in pieces? so like 65 helmets, 68 torsos, 6 boots, 77 full body campaign models. Thats insane! I did the same thing here, back in 2015 when I first started out, I hired a rigger to do some models, and teach me in the process. This year when I re-opened this project I contacted him and said hey man, I got a ton of models I need rigged, could you give me a hand? Sure I didnt HAVE to outsource this at this point, But there was so many other parts of the project only I could work on and wanted to get done.

Currently, Im trying to tackle issues with the LUA language to do some over the top custom scripting that just doesn't seem possible with any knowledge of any modder on TWC, T.C is gone, and his list his incomplete for acceptable commands. Looks like another thing Ill have to outsource.
Adding things like custom siege equipment, custom animations, and some really over the top other things which I cant talk about will also most likely cost money.

As I said before Im just one man, and this mod will ALWAYS BE FREE to the public once it is done.
but if anyone wants to see this done before 2070... then It wouldn't hurt to donate to the cause...

Does that make sense?

Do you really want to have the same discussion over again?
Modding is a hobby. If it took time-consuming for you, then do something else. Do what you love to do. The game isn't yours, it is CA's game. If you want to create games, do what Darth Vader and his team did and create their own game.
When I did ACW re-enacting, I paid for everything. The host event would charge money, but I didn't expect any payment.

Yes, I do want to have this discussion as it is very pertinent to me and I feel like you a misrepresenting what I am saying.
Yes, I do want to make my own game, in fact its my dream.
Being able to Mod Total war titles has only exasperated that goal.

I started this project off because I loved Total war and Love the three kingdoms period, but the ROTK series gameplay just sucks lately. S2 has a great middle ground,
So I began creating something I never dreamed could exist.
I fell in love with the process and realized how much this was for me.

Eventually it became my goal to use my Three Kingdoms mod to learn as much as I could about the process that goes into making video games. Sort of self teaching while making your dream game, what a great hobby right?
I was then going to create a website and use this mod as a showcase to apply at CA.
Then, after working there awhile, I dreamed of eventually convincing them to make a Total war: Three Kingdoms game.

This all seemed so possible and right on schedule, until Jan when they announced they were doing just that. I force pushed out my mod on here early and used it to apply. Unfortunately I was denied "for lack of experience" even though I spoke to a few team members who described the designer job as "working heavily with the database files" and a bunch of other elements this mod clear as day demonstrated I could do.

Now I am currently going to school for computer science and learning programming as I need to learn C++ to code for CA / most other game companies.
I also work full time.

I really wish I could follow your advice and just "go make my own game" . Sadly, I am just one person and that's alot harder than it sounds.
I don't know why you are making me out to be like some guy who is trying to use CAs game to pay my bills... its far from it. In fact I want to work for / with them and I would do so for free just to learn and be apart of a project I truly believe in.

[Theramines]

This donation thing is getting out of hand and every Tom, Dick and Harry modder now seems to have a donation button. That will have consequences for modding. Where there's a buck to be made, corporations like Sega and Steam have a legal obligation to make it. It's not a 'moral' choice for them. There are no 'evil' corporations, only entities exploiting market niches. The only reason modding is now free is that in the balance of things, they currently make more money by allowing modders to do their thing. Corporations have no choice, lest they answer to their shareholders, but to monetise anything, any niche, if it improves their bottom lines. Trust me that the corporations can sniff every dollar you donate to modders: it smells good and they want it, badly.

It needs to be curtailed in a big way, or we will lose open and community modding, which is in my opinion the biggest factor that makes Total War titles playable for more than a few hours. And, no, money and 'competition' do not inevitably improve anything. That is a notion that does not survive close scrutiny.

[izzi]

I'll try to clarify this for you.

Getting things done in a timely manor costs money.
I am just one man.

Need a custom model that doesnt exist on the internet/you dont have access to?:
you need to hire a 3d modeler- that costs ~$300 for a quality model.

I had a rare model ripped mid animation from its Original game, he was riding a horse. I had to get this model into T-pose to be rigged into S2. I didnt know how to clean up geometry that sloppy, so I had to hire a 3d artist to do it and make me a tutorial so I could learn how.

My ROTKv2.0 has over 326 custom models that needed to be rigged into S2. You know how the models are read in pieces? so like 65 helmets, 68 torsos, 6 boots, 77 full body campaign models. Thats insane! I did the same thing here, back in 2015 when I first started out, I hired a rigger to do some models, and teach me in the process. This year when I re-opened this project I contacted him and said hey man, I got a ton of models I need rigged, could you give me a hand? Sure I didnt HAVE to outsource this at this point, But there was so many other parts of the project only I could work on and wanted to get done.

Currently, Im trying to tackle issues with the LUA language to do some over the top custom scripting that just doesn't seem possible with any knowledge of any modder on TWC, T.C is gone, and his list his incomplete for acceptable commands. Looks like another thing Ill have to outsource.
Adding things like custom siege equipment, custom animations, and some really over the top other things which I cant talk about will also most likely cost money.

As I said before Im just one man, and this mod will ALWAYS BE FREE to the public once it is done.
but if anyone wants to see this done before 2070... then It wouldn't hurt to donate to the cause...

Does that make sense?





Yes, I do want to have this discussion as it is very pertinent to me and I feel like you a misrepresenting what I am saying.
Yes, I do want to make my own game, in fact its my dream.
Being able to Mod Total war titles has only exasperated that goal.

I started this project off because I loved Total war and Love the three kingdoms period, but the ROTK series gameplay just sucks lately. S2 has a great middle ground,
So I began creating something I never dreamed could exist.
I fell in love with the process and realized how much this was for me.

Eventually it became my goal to use my Three Kingdoms mod to learn as much as I could about the process that goes into making video games. Sort of self teaching while making your dream game, what a great hobby right?
I was then going to create a website and use this mod as a showcase to apply at CA.
Then, after working there awhile, I dreamed of eventually convincing them to make a Total war: Three Kingdoms game.

This all seemed so possible and right on schedule, until Jan when they announced they were doing just that. I force pushed out my mod on here early and used it to apply. Unfortunately I was denied "for lack of experience" even though I spoke to a few team members who described the designer job as "working heavily with the database files" and a bunch of other elements this mod clear as day demonstrated I could do.

Now I am currently going to school for computer science and learning programming as I need to learn C++ to code for CA / most other game companies.
I also work full time.

I really wish I could follow your advice and just "go make my own game" . Sadly, I am just one person and that's alot harder than it sounds.
I don't know why you are making me out to be like some guy who is trying to use CAs game to pay my bills... its far from it. In fact I want to work for / with them and I would do so for free just to learn and be apart of a project I truly believe in.

Havie, as a friend and co-worker in modding. Patience is a virtue. Sometimes it's good to take your time and to deliver quality. Money will not do that in it's place. It takes time/effort and experience. A person can be knowledgeable, but not wise always. I also work almost all the time alone. And yes, sometimes i think like "man, when am i going to finish". But when i finish, it's a very satisfactory feeling. I have learned in my personal life, not to rush things always in life. Because if we rush things, we lose the love for it.

This donation thing is getting out of hand and every Tom, Dick and Harry modder now seems to have a donation button. That will have consequences for modding. Where there's a buck to be made, corporations like Sega and Steam have a legal obligation to make it. It's not a 'moral' choice for them. There are no 'evil' corporations, only entities exploiting market niches. The only reason modding is now free is that in the balance of things, they currently make more money by allowing modders to do their thing. Corporations have no choice, lest they answer to their shareholders, but to monetise anything, any niche, if it improves their bottom lines. Trust me that the corporations can sniff every dollar you donate to modders: it smells good and they want it, badly.

It needs to be curtailed in a big way, or we will lose open and community modding, which is in my opinion the biggest factor that makes Total War titles playable for more than a few hours. And, no, money and 'competition' do not inevitably improve anything. That is a notion that does not survive close scrutiny.

As i have said before, donations are not a bad thing. But not as en obligation. I see it more as en appreciation to your work. For me, donations ar not the priority, i work on my mod and i love doing it. But if members want to donate, than i don't see any problem to it.

[Leonardo]

I'll try to clarify this for you.

Getting things done in a timely manor costs money.
I am just one man.

Need a custom model that doesnt exist on the internet/you dont have access to?:
you need to hire a 3d modeler- that costs ~$300 for a quality model.

I had a rare model ripped mid animation from its Original game, he was riding a horse. I had to get this model into T-pose to be rigged into S2. I didnt know how to clean up geometry that sloppy, so I had to hire a 3d artist to do it and make me a tutorial so I could learn how.

My ROTKv2.0 has over 326 custom models that needed to be rigged into S2. You know how the models are read in pieces? so like 65 helmets, 68 torsos, 6 boots, 77 full body campaign models. Thats insane! I did the same thing here, back in 2015 when I first started out, I hired a rigger to do some models, and teach me in the process. This year when I re-opened this project I contacted him and said hey man, I got a ton of models I need rigged, could you give me a hand? Sure I didnt HAVE to outsource this at this point, But there was so many other parts of the project only I could work on and wanted to get done.

Currently, Im trying to tackle issues with the LUA language to do some over the top custom scripting that just doesn't seem possible with any knowledge of any modder on TWC, T.C is gone, and his list his incomplete for acceptable commands. Looks like another thing Ill have to outsource.
Adding things like custom siege equipment, custom animations, and some really over the top other things which I cant talk about will also most likely cost money.

As I said before Im just one man, and this mod will ALWAYS BE FREE to the public once it is done.
but if anyone wants to see this done before 2070... then It wouldn't hurt to donate to the cause...

Does that make sense?

No, it doesn't make sense as long one allow money to be part of a hobby, expect for cover up hosting cost for a website you as a modder own (this is the only thing I can accept though). Because as soon one allow money to become a factor in modding, without cover up hosting cost, then modding as a hobby ceased to exist IMO.

However, the only thing that does make sense, is about how much time one is prepared to sacriface for a hobby and modding a game is a hobby, which means that money is not one would wish to have instead it's endless time one would have. Another thing most modders wants to have is feedback from its mod users and most modders always sees feedback as a reward similar to what money is for a real job.

That's why money doesn't belong in a modding community in the first place.

[Havie]

No, it doesn't make sense as long one allow money to be part of a hobby, expect for cover up hosting cost for a website you as a modder own (this is the only thing I can accept though). Because as soon one allow money to become a factor in modding, without cover up hosting cost, then modding as a hobby ceased to exist IMO.

However, the only thing that does make sense, is about how much time one is prepared to sacriface for a hobby and modding a game is a hobby, which means that money is not one would wish to have instead it's endless time one would have. Another thing most modders wants to have is feedback from its mod users and most modders always sees feedback as a reward similar to what money is for a real job.

That's why money doesn't belong in a modding community in the first place.

Money is not the reward, getting the mod done is. Once again, this money doesnt go into anyones pockets, it goes into the mod. ( at least in my case)

[Lifthrasir]

Wrong. The money goes into the pockets of the people you're paying.
I don't care if you want to pay someone to do the job for you, no matter what your motivations are. I don't care if players want to spend their money as donations to support you. You're free to spend your money as you want. My concern is that this kind of practice is becoming more and more common at the expence of modders who still consider this as a real hobby.
For instance, it's like I'd ask people to make a donations to this site for any graphic request they send me in the Graphic Workshop. Or like I'd ask for donations to pay an artist to do the job or to cover my expenses such as a good graphic software. I'm not a professional graphic artist and this is a hobby. Hence, my "services" are for free.
To go back on the modding topic, people tend to forget that modding takes time and involvement. Most of the modders interviewed in the Eagle Standard have said the same advice about modding: start small, develop your skills and your mod slowly but surely. To be short: be patient and tenacious.
So about donations, even if I can understand the reason, I don't think that this is the right way to head for the modding community but that' just my own opinion.

[Leonardo]

Money is not the reward, getting the mod done is.

Right, feedback is the reward for the time one have spent to create a mod whether it is a request or not it doesn't matter.

Once again, this money doesnt go into anyones pockets, it goes into the mod. ( at least in my case)

I agree with Lifth here, he is right money goes down into people's pocket and if you think money goes down into a mod then I dunno why you consider yourself as a modder.

[Commissar Caligula_]

I'd kinda say modding is turning into a career for a few Total War modders.
Now I don't know how many people are on these two teams, but Team Radious is pulling in $1319 per month from 265 backers on Patreon. I also don't know how big the SteelFaith team is, but the mod pulls in $2025 per month from 421 backers and the mod leader has said that "modding is my full time job. Your aid can truly help make or break the long-term future of Steel Faith Overhaul".

[PikeStance]

Yes, I do want to have this discussion as it is very pertinent to me and I feel like you a misrepresenting what I am saying.
Yes, I do want to make my own game, in fact its my dream.
Being able to Mod Total war titles has only exasperated that goal.

I started this project off because I loved Total war and Love the three kingdoms period, but the ROTK series gameplay just sucks lately. S2 has a great middle ground,
So I began creating something I never dreamed could exist.
I fell in love with the process and realized how much this was for me.

Eventually it became my goal to use my Three Kingdoms mod to learn as much as I could about the process that goes into making video games. Sort of self teaching while making your dream game, what a great hobby right?
I was then going to create a website and use this mod as a showcase to apply at CA.
Then, after working there awhile, I dreamed of eventually convincing them to make a Total war: Three Kingdoms game.

This all seemed so possible and right on schedule, until Jan when they announced they were doing just that. I force pushed out my mod on here early and used it to apply. Unfortunately I was denied "for lack of experience" even though I spoke to a few team members who described the designer job as "working heavily with the database files" and a bunch of other elements this mod clear as day demonstrated I could do.

Now I am currently going to school for computer science and learning programming as I need to learn C++ to code for CA / most other game companies.
I also work full time.

I really wish I could follow your advice and just "go make my own game" . Sadly, I am just one person and that's alot harder than it sounds.
I don't know why you are making me out to be like some guy who is trying to use CAs game to pay my bills... its far from it. In fact I want to work for / with them and I would do so for free just to learn and be apart of a project I truly believe in.

I think it is you who is misunderstanding what I am saying.
There is no problem with having aspirations of being a game developer. I am also sorry that they did not consider you to be experienced enough to be hired. That is yet another means to get into the industry; directly apply for a game developer. Apart from what I already mentioned, you can also develop a game concept and then approach publishing companies to help develop the game until release. I wasn't giving you an exhaustive list of getting into the industry. Anyway, it is only germane to the discussion if you understand, that this is a hobby, not a profession. The bottom line is that Total War is NOT your game. Now, if you want to pay people for nothing more than an "atta-boy" and a little bling award, then more power to you. The most you will get from me a rep, a vote for mod awards, my support for your new citizenship badge (Artifex) and if you keep it up, I will either support or propose you for the more shinier Opifex badge.

I'd kinda say modding is turning into a career for a few Total War modders.
Now I don't know how many people are on these two teams, but Team Radious is pulling in $1319 per month from 265 backers on Patreon. I also don't know how big the SteelFaith team is, but the mod pulls in $2025 per month from 421 backers and the mod leader has said that "modding is my full-time job. Your aid can truly help make or break the long-term future of Steel Faith Overhaul".

Patreon is more or less a new thing. I have feeling it will hit a wall and people will stop contributing. Youtube is starting to get flooded with nonsensical content. It reminds me of the video game bust. The video quality is more or less the same and the content is becoming redundant.

[Havie]

Alright Pike, I think thats fair enough.

I'd kinda say modding is turning into a career for a few Total War modders.
Now I don't know how many people are on these two teams, but Team Radious is pulling in $1319 per month from 265 backers on Patreon. I also don't know how big the SteelFaith team is, but the mod pulls in $2025 per month from 421 backers and the mod leader has said that "modding is my full time job. Your aid can truly help make or break the long-term future of Steel Faith Overhaul".

This right here is crazy, I didnt know about this

[Haithabas]

I'll try to clarify this for you.

Getting things done in a timely manor costs money.
I am just one man.

Need a custom model that doesnt exist on the internet/you dont have access to?:
you need to hire a 3d modeler- that costs ~$300 for a quality model.

I had a rare model ripped mid animation from its Original game, he was riding a horse. I had to get this model into T-pose to be rigged into S2. I didnt know how to clean up geometry that sloppy, so I had to hire a 3d artist to do it and make me a tutorial so I could learn how.

My ROTKv2.0 has over 326 custom models that needed to be rigged into S2. You know how the models are read in pieces? so like 65 helmets, 68 torsos, 6 boots, 77 full body campaign models. Thats insane! I did the same thing here, back in 2015 when I first started out, I hired a rigger to do some models, and teach me in the process. This year when I re-opened this project I contacted him and said hey man, I got a ton of models I need rigged, could you give me a hand? Sure I didnt HAVE to outsource this at this point, But there was so many other parts of the project only I could work on and wanted to get done.

Currently, Im trying to tackle issues with the LUA language to do some over the top custom scripting that just doesn't seem possible with any knowledge of any modder on TWC, T.C is gone, and his list his incomplete for acceptable commands. Looks like another thing Ill have to outsource.
Adding things like custom siege equipment, custom animations, and some really over the top other things which I cant talk about will also most likely cost money.

As I said before Im just one man, and this mod will ALWAYS BE FREE to the public once it is done.
but if anyone wants to see this done before 2070... then It wouldn't hurt to donate to the cause...

Does that make sense?





Yes, I do want to have this discussion as it is very pertinent to me and I feel like you a misrepresenting what I am saying.
Yes, I do want to make my own game, in fact its my dream.
Being able to Mod Total war titles has only exasperated that goal.

I started this project off because I loved Total war and Love the three kingdoms period, but the ROTK series gameplay just sucks lately. S2 has a great middle ground,
So I began creating something I never dreamed could exist.
I fell in love with the process and realized how much this was for me.

Eventually it became my goal to use my Three Kingdoms mod to learn as much as I could about the process that goes into making video games. Sort of self teaching while making your dream game, what a great hobby right?
I was then going to create a website and use this mod as a showcase to apply at CA.
Then, after working there awhile, I dreamed of eventually convincing them to make a Total war: Three Kingdoms game.

This all seemed so possible and right on schedule, until Jan when they announced they were doing just that. I force pushed out my mod on here early and used it to apply. Unfortunately I was denied "for lack of experience" even though I spoke to a few team members who described the designer job as "working heavily with the database files" and a bunch of other elements this mod clear as day demonstrated I could do.

Now I am currently going to school for computer science and learning programming as I need to learn C++ to code for CA / most other game companies.
I also work full time.

I really wish I could follow your advice and just "go make my own game" . Sadly, I am just one person and that's alot harder than it sounds.
I don't know why you are making me out to be like some guy who is trying to use CAs game to pay my bills... its far from it. In fact I want to work for / with them and I would do so for free just to learn and be apart of a project I truly believe in.

Working on a project of this scale alone is not easy and pay for help won't make it easier. It's the opposite, spending more money put you more under pressure. You better team up with other passionated guys.

And if you really dream of you owen game, then you better join an indie team or start a small one . All the tools you need are for free: Blender, Gimp, Unity, Visual Studio...

Believe me with every finished project you get better and faster.

First I mod TW games for myself, then join the EB2 team for many years and never ever get or spend money for this. Now working with two other guys on a indie game series (Grand Tactician) and until now we 3 work on it for free after our full time jobs. However at this point, after almost 10 years, I have to spend money on tutorials, addons, texturen etc. and hope to get someone back at the release day and if not... well I'm sure we move on with the next project.

So yes, modding should be doable with no budget or patreon support IMO.

[izzi]

I think maybe TWC could add that option only for committed modders. But, like kind of a donation button or something like that. If members like to donate something, because they just like the mod and effort that the modder did. Why not? It's a donation, not a bill to pay to play the mod. I am also against donations that restrict some updates or something like that. But as a donation is not obliged, why not having that option? I gave a donation to TWC. Was is i obliged to do that? No. Because i am happy for the effort that TWC has done for all creators and modders of any strategy game. I feel if we restrict something like that, that just modders are going to leave and will not care about TWC anymore. Because of all those restrictions and rules. I am happy there are even modders full time working on their projects. Time changes sometimes