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Thread: a worrying development in modding

  1. #1
    ♔atthias♔'s Avatar dutch speaking
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    Default a worrying development in modding

    hello everybody I want to share with you a worrying development in modding

    radious is considering returning to update their mod for RTW2's latest DLC BUT only if they get enough money
    https://www.patreon.com/posts/15277487


    IMHO this smells of paid mods

    what do you all think?
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  2. #2
    isa0005's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: a worrying development in modding

    I don't think it smells of paid mods. I think its just a group of modders wanting to have an incentive to give up some of their time to create content for the overall Total War gaming community.

    Their team developes other content for other, newer total war titles as their post states. Returning to an obselete and as the post says to a "finished and finalised) title, isn't that high on their list of priorities, even despite the new content (which IMHO should have been for Atilla really anyway...)

    I don't think you ought to be worrying that much, this kind of thing is pretty common, furthurmore they haven't stated that their new content would be locked behind a paywall (yet) so I don't thionk there is a need to jump to such rash conclusions

  3. #3
    ♔atthias♔'s Avatar dutch speaking
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    Default Re: a worrying development in modding

    Quote Originally Posted by isa0005 View Post
    I don't think it smells of paid mods. I think its just a group of modders wanting to have an incentive to give up some of their time to create content for the overall Total War gaming community.

    Their team developes other content for other, newer total war titles as their post states. Returning to an obselete and as the post says to a "finished and finalised) title, isn't that high on their list of priorities, even despite the new content (which IMHO should have been for Atilla really anyway...)

    I don't think you ought to be worrying that much, this kind of thing is pretty common, furthurmore they haven't stated that their new content would be locked behind a paywall (yet) so I don't thionk there is a need to jump to such rash conclusions
    sad to hear it is pretty common this kind of stuff doesnt belong to mods IMHO that you ask for money to update your content even when not locked behind a paywall
    IMHO it should work like this: you update your content always but you offer them an option to donate
    hot we will update it but we would like money first
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    D you want some units back in MOS 1.7? Install this mod http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...n-1-1-RELEASED
    It adds back units who were deleted from the campaign in MOS 1.7, namely the Winged Swordsmen, the Citadel Guard Archers and the Gondor Dismounted Bodyguard.

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  4. #4
    Leonardo's Avatar Reborn Old Timer
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    Default Re: a worrying development in modding

    Quote Originally Posted by atthias View Post
    sad to hear it is pretty common this kind of stuff doesnt belong to mods IMHO that you ask for money to update your content even when not locked behind a paywall
    IMHO it should work like this: you update your content always but you offer them an option to donate
    hot we will update it but we would like money first
    Agreed. I too feel sad about this, because modding is a hobby and not a real job with a salary. The salary, however, is the appreciation and feedback a modder gets from the community e.g other modders, mod users.

    Which I think the patreon concept is, well sort of paid mods if you want to call it, but having a donation option available is a lot better than using the patreon concept IMO.

    That's exactly what Nexus has these days, a donation button for hosted mods there.
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    Commissar Caligula_'s Avatar The Ecstasy of Potatoes
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    Default Re: a worrying development in modding

    Nearly every single mod on the Warhammer 2 Steam Workshop has a Patreon/donation link on these days.
    It feels really scummy to me, I've already seen an instance of a modder refusing to help another modder because they don't want "competition".

    In my opinion, everyone and their mums having a Patreon link will stifle teamwork.



  6. #6
    eXistenZ's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: a worrying development in modding

    Like ive said previously, mods should have been an important consideration for CA when they decided to update a game 30 months after it previous update. But like so many things, they didnt bother to think about it. And this is a consequence of it

  7. #7
    ♔atthias♔'s Avatar dutch speaking
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    Default Re: a worrying development in modding

    Quote Originally Posted by Caligula View Post
    Nearly every single mod on the Warhammer 2 Steam Workshop has a Patreon/donation link on these days.
    It feels really scummy to me, I've already seen an instance of a modder refusing to help another modder because they don't want "competition".

    In my opinion, everyone and their mums having a Patreon link will stifle teamwork.
    l
    like I said I am not against a donation link itself
    I am against the fact that you ask money first and then update the mod
    it should be the otherway around
    you update a mod ASAP and an user might think good guy I will give him some money

    what you write however about modders refusing to help each other is saddening because like you said it will stifle team work

    @all
    all in all it seems that the battle that was fought in the past against valve to prevent getting paid mods has been useless
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  8. #8
    Leonardo's Avatar Reborn Old Timer
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    Default Re: a worrying development in modding

    Quote Originally Posted by atthias View Post
    @all
    all in all it seems that the battle that was fought in the past against valve to prevent getting paid mods has been useless
    I don't know for sure, but if you somehow miss it then read this 2 year old thread about paid mods.
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  9. #9
    Radious's Avatar I came, I saw, I modded
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    Default Re: a worrying development in modding

    Good day everyone!

    I am active in modding more then 10 years and last 8 i am making overhauls for every TW game since Shogun 2. These are usually most played, subscribed and popular mods on steam workshop. All these mods and tons of submods to them always been, are and always will be entirely free. Same as all our tutorials, support to all those mods over the years and much more we did for official patch/dlc testing, bug hunting and various other tw and commnuity projects. Nothing ever changed on that. Patreon is popular feature for us content creators, every youtuber has it even when they "just making videos and playing", not creating anything, same as pretty much every modder in Wh1 and Wh2 has patreon link or paypall link. For large projects like our overhauls are it helps our small team to go on and continue working on new TW games every year. Support is entirely optional, nobody is forced to do it, but our mods take thousands hours to do. As much as hobby it is, we have all regular jobs, families and duties to take care. Supporting our work financially helps us to continue and make more and better content. If there wont be interest in our mods then we wont be making them and nobody has to support us, but all we release is always free for everyone. Patreon allows us to dedicate that time on these overhauls. Yes without it it would be no longer possible to create every year one of the largest overhauls for every new TW game since Shogun 2.

    But since we are 2 simple mortals who are now fully involved in newer TW games - Attila, WH1 and WH2 and preparing to go for Thrones of Britannia we simply dont have resources and time to go back to Rome 2 which as was said is considered as finished more then 3 years. I closely looked on largest changes and fixing our Rome 2 work to make it playable again for latest patch/dlc would take dozens of hours of working on all of them and fixing them. With 2 people right now involved fully in TR that is not possible, noone will put all that time into this game which we take as a bad TW game (Attila superior) and where is real no interest from our playerbase to support our work (not pay for mods).

    There is no other modder or modding team who would do that, none, usually they stick with 1 or max 2 TW games and thats it for years. We dont, we work on much bigger scale due to development process we created for ourselves but that is not free for us.

    So yes, mods are free and always will be free, but our work is not. We are not charity and if we are suppose to continue on making TW mods we ask our fans to support us, if they wont then simply new TW games will be without Radious mods, nothing else will change. We create optional content for these games for more then 8 years. And with your support we will like to continue, without we will have to stop cause we cant really afford anymore to spend thousands hours on mods.

    We are known, people know what they can expect from us and all is very clear and transparent. Its now totaly up to everyone to decide if our work and mods is worth few dollars per month or not. Like our article what we all did in 2017 - https://www.patreon.com/posts/team-radious-and-15654540

    Our Team loves TW games, we work on them many many years and our mods are simply an option of how to play them! Not the only way!


    Think about it.


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    Winner of the 2011, 2012. 2014, 2015, 2016 and 2017 Modding Awards in Total War Shogun 2, Rome 2, Attila, Warhammer 1 and Warhammer 2.
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  10. #10
    ♔atthias♔'s Avatar dutch speaking
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    Default Re: a worrying development in modding

    Quote Originally Posted by Radious View Post
    Good day everyone!

    I am active in modding more then 10 years and last 8 i am making overhauls for every TW game since Shogun 2. These are usually most played, subscribed and popular mods on steam workshop. All these mods and tons of submods to them always been, are and always will be entirely free. Same as all our tutorials, support to all those mods over the years and much more we did for official patch/dlc testing, bug hunting and various other tw and commnuity projects. Nothing ever changed on that. Patreon is popular feature for us content creators, every youtuber has it even when they "just making videos and playing", not creating anything, same as pretty much every modder in Wh1 and Wh2 has patreon link or paypall link. For large projects like our overhauls are it helps our small team to go on and continue working on new TW games every year. Support is entirely optional, nobody is forced to do it, but our mods take thousands hours to do. As much as hobby it is, we have all regular jobs, families and duties to take care. Supporting our work financially helps us to continue and make more and better content. If there wont be interest in our mods then we wont be making them and nobody has to support us, but all we release is always free for everyone. Patreon allows us to dedicate that time on these overhauls. Yes without it it would be no longer possible to create every year one of the largest overhauls for every new TW game since Shogun 2.

    But since we are 2 simple mortals who are now fully involved in newer TW games - Attila, WH1 and WH2 and preparing to go for Thrones of Britannia we simply dont have resources and time to go back to Rome 2 which as was said is considered as finished more then 3 years. I closely looked on largest changes and fixing our Rome 2 work to make it playable again for latest patch/dlc would take dozens of hours of working on all of them and fixing them. With 2 people right now involved fully in TR that is not possible, noone will put all that time into this game which we take as a bad TW game (Attila superior) and where is real no interest from our playerbase to support our work (not pay for mods).

    There is no other modder or modding team who would do that, none, usually they stick with 1 or max 2 TW games and thats it for years. We dont, we work on much bigger scale due to development process we created for ourselves but that is not free for us.

    So yes, mods are free and always will be free, but our work is not. We are not charity and if we are suppose to continue on making TW mods we ask our fans to support us, if they wont then simply new TW games will be without Radious mods, nothing else will change. We create optional content for these games for more then 8 years. And with your support we will like to continue, without we will have to stop cause we cant really afford anymore to spend thousands hours on mods.

    We are known, people know what they can expect from us and all is very clear and transparent. Its now totaly up to everyone to decide if our work and mods is worth few dollars per month or not. Like our article what we all did in 2017 - https://www.patreon.com/posts/team-radious-and-15654540

    Our Team loves TW games, we work on them many many years and our mods are simply an option of how to play them! Not the only way!


    Think about it.


    Team Radious
    so
    you like to destroy modding because people who want an updated radius for RTW2 are now kind of forced to support you if they want a updated radious
    yes the mod is free you say but it isnt because you want money to update it first
    so that is just destroying modding

    further when you make a mod you knew that it would require you to update it some day and yet now you dont
    being small is no excuse sorry

    you either so we stop updating it or you do it for free but in NO way do you say we will update it but mone firt NO and NO
    tuhat is harming modding to death

    why do you do this I wonder? because you like to screw people over? for money?

    please reconsider this and just update it an be true to your loyal subscribers who want an updated radious without basically having to give you money because you want that first and update after


    PS I apologise if this comes across as aggressive that is not meant to be even tough I am angry at you doing this
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  11. #11
    Commissar Caligula_'s Avatar The Ecstasy of Potatoes
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    Default Re: a worrying development in modding

    I'm strongly against donating to mods as I made clear, but I've gotta defend Radious here.

    - If players really want to play his mod, they can revert to the previous version of Rome 2 before the update where his mod still works
    - Radious would probably allow fans to attempt to update his work
    - I can understand Radious wanting to focus on the newer games, its a bit unfair to expect him to go back to a 4 year old game

    It is a bit iffy him saying he won't do it without donations but I guess he's saying he's not going to dedicate a large portion of time unless there is evidence that the effort is worth it (in the form of donations rather than likes/comments/appreciation).



  12. #12
    Leonardo's Avatar Reborn Old Timer
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    Default Re: a worrying development in modding

    Quote Originally Posted by Radious View Post
    Good day everyone!

    I am active in modding more then 10 years and last 8 i am making overhauls for every TW game since Shogun 2. These are usually most played, subscribed and popular mods on steam workshop. All these mods and tons of submods to them always been, are and always will be entirely free. Same as all our tutorials, support to all those mods over the years and much more we did for official patch/dlc testing, bug hunting and various other tw and commnuity projects. Nothing ever changed on that. Patreon is popular feature for us content creators, every youtuber has it even when they "just making videos and playing", not creating anything, same as pretty much every modder in Wh1 and Wh2 has patreon link or paypall link. For large projects like our overhauls are it helps our small team to go on and continue working on new TW games every year. Support is entirely optional, nobody is forced to do it, but our mods take thousands hours to do. As much as hobby it is, we have all regular jobs, families and duties to take care. Supporting our work financially helps us to continue and make more and better content. If there wont be interest in our mods then we wont be making them and nobody has to support us, but all we release is always free for everyone. Patreon allows us to dedicate that time on these overhauls. Yes without it it would be no longer possible to create every year one of the largest overhauls for every new TW game since Shogun 2.

    But since we are 2 simple mortals who are now fully involved in newer TW games - Attila, WH1 and WH2 and preparing to go for Thrones of Britannia we simply dont have resources and time to go back to Rome 2 which as was said is considered as finished more then 3 years. I closely looked on largest changes and fixing our Rome 2 work to make it playable again for latest patch/dlc would take dozens of hours of working on all of them and fixing them. With 2 people right now involved fully in TR that is not possible, noone will put all that time into this game which we take as a bad TW game (Attila superior) and where is real no interest from our playerbase to support our work (not pay for mods).
    I understand the argument behind ones commitment in RL, anyone has a RL to go on about and sometimes RL intervene. Which I should know what that means since it happen to me personally 4 years ago when one of my relatives died a way too early death.

    But what I disagree about is the argument about adepting the Patreon concept and to me it is almost the same as of being payed for creating mods and not to compensate the time spent on modding, otherwise it is not a hobby anymore IMO.

    The only thing I can accept, though, for using Patreon or PayPal is, if it is used to compensate the cost for 3rd party tools e.g 3Dmax or other commercial programs that's used for modding.

    Finally, just because other modders or modding teams has adepting the Patreon concept or starting using PayPal for their mods doesn't mean your argument is solid.

    Quote Originally Posted by Radious View Post
    There is no other modder or modding team who would do that, none, usually they stick with 1 or max 2 TW games and thats it for years. We dont, we work on much bigger scale due to development process we created for ourselves but that is not free for us.
    I assume you're referring to the TW modding community, but if you are not referring to the TW modding community then you're wrong and the Tamriel Rebuilt project is what modding as a hobby is all about and that project has been going on for almost 15 years without receiving a single paycheck AFAIK.

    The Tamriel Rebuilt project is a genuine example of what I mean by saying "modding is a hobby and the appreciation and feedback from the community is similar to a salary one would get for a real job in RL".

    Some modders, regardless what game it's for, has a real passion when it comes to modding a game(s) and they go on and on year after year without asking for a donation or start using a Patreon/PayPal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Radious View Post
    So yes, mods are free and always will be free, but our work is not. We are not charity and if we are suppose to continue on making TW mods we ask our fans to support us, if they wont then simply new TW games will be without Radious mods, nothing else will change. We create optional content for these games for more then 8 years. And with your support we will like to continue, without we will have to stop cause we cant really afford anymore to spend thousands hours on mods.

    We are known, people know what they can expect from us and all is very clear and transparent. Its now totaly up to everyone to decide if our work and mods is worth few dollars per month or not. Like our article what we all did in 2017 - https://www.patreon.com/posts/team-radious-and-15654540

    Our Team loves TW games, we work on them many many years and our mods are simply an option of how to play them! Not the only way!


    Think about it.


    Team Radious
    I have thought about it, but I don't buy that argument.
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  13. #13
    Radious's Avatar I came, I saw, I modded
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    Default Re: a worrying development in modding

    Quote Originally Posted by atthias View Post
    so
    you like to destroy modding because people who want an updated radius for RTW2 are now kind of forced to support you if they want a updated radious
    yes the mod is free you say but it isnt because you want money to update it first
    so that is just destroying modding

    further when you make a mod you knew that it would require you to update it some day and yet now you dont
    being small is no excuse sorry

    you either so we stop updating it or you do it for free but in NO way do you say we will update it but mone firt NO and NO
    tuhat is harming modding to death

    why do you do this I wonder? because you like to screw people over? for money?

    please reconsider this and just update it an be true to your loyal subscribers who want an updated radious without basically having to give you money because you want that first and update after


    PS I apologise if this comes across as aggressive that is not meant to be even tough I am angry at you doing this
    I dont have to apologise for anything. I am the last person who should be called as someone who is destroying mods. This is very insulting when all i do past 8 years is to support and develope mods and tools everywhere i can. I helped CA on many tools they published, testing any new things related to modding and launchers etc.

    With few other people around we are keeping modding alive. Its not my fault when majority of people have no clue how much work and time modding in such a scale requires. Making this entirely for free is not possible, we are monthly paying for various tools abd licenses which help us making all these mods and getting atlest something in return is totaly minimum for our work.

    We do not force anyone to pay us. Its optional thing for those who spend hundrets and thousands hours with our content to support us and show some appreciation.

    Every overhaul we always updating in their whole live cycle. Every patch and dlc is destroying overhauls abd always takes dozens of hours to fix them. Nobody asked for another useless Rome2 dlc and patch which fixed nothing important.

    Please dont talk about screwing people or destroying modding in relation to me or our team when all we do last 10 years is making massive mods for everyone and entirely for free. Its stupidly insulting.

    Winner of the 2011, 2012. 2014, 2015, 2016 and 2017 Modding Awards in Total War Shogun 2, Rome 2, Attila, Warhammer 1 and Warhammer 2.
    Follow us here - Team Radious




  14. #14
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    Default Re: a worrying development in modding

    Atthias,always keep in mind that a modder does not have to make a mod. They do it for the rest of the gaming community. They do it because they think they can make a game better. Add more flavour to it. They can do it for themselves or they can make it so that it is open to everyone.
    This is indeed a hobby. And a hobby you do for fun. But when you work on a mod the size of Radious his mod. Then it all changes. He has an insane amount of followers. As soon as a new patch comes out, his mod page is overflown with: "Update" with some luck the poster add "please" to it. But most of the time the followers are demanding Radious to update his mod.

    Not taking in regard the time of work Radious has to put into it. Not taking in mind that Radious does not have to update his mod. Surely not in a timespan that suits the user. As soon as the users start demanding for updates. The mod itself is not a hobby anymore. It becomes a project to satisfy the horde of leeches. The ones that take the mod for granted. Not giving a damn about the hard work it cost for Radious. Not caring that Radious has a life as well. A job, a wife and kid.

    Radious definitely does not have to go back to Rome 2 and update his mod for that. Why should he? That game is over and finished. It is not his fault that CA decided to bring out something new for that game. Radious is busy with Attila, WH1 and WH2 and soon ToB. Why should he have to go back and totally redo his mod? It is an insane amount of time. He has to totally redo it as CA changed a lot in the codes. It is not just some simple copy/paste job. If he decides to go back to Rome 2 it means a lot of extra time he has to spend on something. Time he rather spend on Warhammer or his family.

    It is totally fair that for spending 1000s of hours on an old game that he wants something in return. He doesn't ask for a lot. 100.000+ subs. How hard should it be to raise $1.800,00? A dollar a month is not much. It is hard for me to believe that none can miss a dollar... but owkee... there are rare cases. I donate $10,00 a month. I hardly feel this. Surely since I recently stopped smoking which costed me $ 150,00 a month. Do your math . So I can cover up for 9 others. 9 more people can leech on the mods. Hell, you can be one of those 9.

    Stop being so entitled and understand that none wants to work for free. Surely not when you already have a full time job.
    Last edited by Lifthrasir; December 19, 2017 at 12:47 AM. Reason: Offensive order and personal reference removed

  15. #15
    SPARTAN VI's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: a worrying development in modding

    Quote Originally Posted by atthias View Post
    I am against the fact that you ask money first and then update the mod it should be the otherway around
    you update a mod ASAP and an user might think good guy I will give him some money
    Unpack this thought for us and you'll probably arrive at the same conclusion as the rest of us: Why do gamers get into modding in the first place?

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  16. #16
    Leonardo's Avatar Reborn Old Timer
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    Default Re: a worrying development in modding

    Quote Originally Posted by SPARTAN VI View Post
    Why do gamers get into modding in the first place?
    I think I can answer that question.

    Because gamers often sees flaws made by the creator of a great game and Morrowind, I know it isn't a TW game, has a lots of flaws, bugs, engine bugs, you name it and yet people still modding it 15 years later after it came out in early May 2002.
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  17. #17
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    Default Re: a worrying development in modding

    Quote Originally Posted by Leonardo View Post
    I think I can answer that question.

    Because gamers often sees flaws made by the creator of a great game and Morrowind, I know it isn't a TW game, has a lots of flaws, bugs, engine bugs, you name it and yet people still modding it 15 years later after it came out in early May 2002.
    The game could be a day old, 15 years old, doesn't matter. Why would someone take the time to fix bugs or custom tailor their own experience via modding?

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  18. #18
    Leonardo's Avatar Reborn Old Timer
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    Default Re: a worrying development in modding

    Quote Originally Posted by SPARTAN VI View Post
    The game could be a day old, 15 years old, doesn't matter. Why would someone take the time to fix bugs or custom tailor their own experience via modding?
    If anyone wants to do it by learning how to mod then it's entirely up to the person to make such a decision. Also, if one who thinks the game can be better through modding and one wants to it then why not give it a try.
    Under patronage of General Brewster of the Imperial House of Hader.





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  19. #19
    SPARTAN VI's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: a worrying development in modding

    Quote Originally Posted by Leonardo View Post
    If anyone wants to do it by learning how to mod then it's entirely up to the person to make such a decision. Also, if one who thinks the game can be better through modding and one wants to it then why not give it a try.
    Sure, but in the endless sea of games, what dictates which games a person modifies?

    I'm trying to make a very simple point that's constantly overlooked.

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  20. #20
    kamikazee786's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: a worrying development in modding

    Well frankly atthias i am disgusted that you would make such allegations towards Radious who has tirelessly pumped out balancing changes and unit packs for games since shogun 2. The games he mods become quiet unplayable without his mods and your clambering for him to update is evidence of this fact.

    As i said he has been working really hard with no demand of remuneration. He has made the game better and has on many occasions done what CA should have done from launch however totally for free.

    Rome II was released in 2013 with its last major update in 2014 !

    At this point CA announced that they were finished with the game and showed this in action by pumping out Atilla, Warhammer I and Warhammer II.

    And now 3 years after CA announced they were done, they went and added in a DLC which no one asked for and many modders had gone on to do other stuff on the newer instalments.

    Radious does all of this for free, if he wants us to now pay so that he can come back to a 4 year old game which by all accounts was finished in 2014 then why all this shock.

    When a person who worked hard for 8 whole stinking years without asking a penny solely because of his/her passion for total war games is told that he/she is somehow destroying modding then it hurts dude.

    If it was me id do what Vader did and pack it in and let you all enjoy CA's vanilla games.

    If you're so bothered then read modding guides and tutorials, radious has done loads of these. Start with basic unit mods and keep working up until you can take his mods and update them yourself (with his permission). If you cant do that then donate to him and if you can't do that either then stop whining and play something else.

    "Follow, lead or get out the way"
    If you work to earn a living, why then do you work yourself to death?

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