Makedon Reformed Phalangitai ( Late Period Heavy Phalanx )

[S0ns0fAnarchY]

Good evening guys , had this Makedon playthrough and didnt noticed any change in Phalangitai after the Marian Reforms , like in EB1 . Is this intentional ; Anyone knows ;

[QuintusSertorius]

They're not in the game, and aren't planned either. Nor do the Marian reforms have any impact on the Hellenistic roster.

EB1 isn't suggestive of what should or shouldn't be in EBII; lots has changed and we don't use it as a guide to what we should be doing.

[Sar1n]

EBI had some quite...speculative units. This was one of those, a kind of "what if Macedonia defeated Rome and standardized chainmail like it". EBII doesn't mess with that.

[Rad]

This popping up here and there again means that the team made a memorable unit. Gj, folks.

[Hellenikon]

The carthaginian reforms are also a bit based on "what if" the second punic war went a different way. Same with the saka reforms, or the confederations of several celt/germanic factions. The lugiones late units would be included as well.

I understand the decision of the team, but given how units like thorakitai start using mail, i think it wouldn't be unreasonable to have a late game upgrade (with the armour upgrade system) to make phalangites use some mail as well.

[Dargaron]

The carthaginian reforms are also a bit based on "what if" the second punic war went a different way. Same with the saka reforms, or the confederations of several celt/germanic factions. The lugiones late units would be included as well.

...Wait, what? IIRC, the Saka established a number of powerful kingdoms in the India-Pakistan-Afghanistan region ~100 B.C. or so, to the extent that one of the historical eras in traditional Buddhist historiography is the "Saka Era." The Celtic reforms mainly unlock different units, based upon changes in the Central European archaeological record (more armor, increased prestige goods, etc.) and the last fallback for said reeforms takes place a good four decades before the "canonical" Roman conquest in the 50s. They're not governmental reforms, last I checked.

The Barcid reforms, as I understand it, are representative of the kind of nascent imperialism by Carthage in Spain, spearheaded in OTL by Hamilcar Barca. They also take place starting 237, so about two decades before the Second Punic War, and four decades before its end.

I understand the decision of the team, but given how units like thorakitai start using mail, i think it wouldn't be unreasonable to have a late game upgrade (with the armour upgrade system) to make phalangites use some mail as well.

On the other hand, it would be nice to get mail showing up in the phalangite units. I've read (skimmed) two or three books on the subject (From Alexander to Actium, for example, which I think was on the EBI bibliography), and the consensus seems to be that the successors increased the level of armor on phalanxes as time went by. Except for the fact that things might get wonky using armor levels for both Celtic and Hellenistic reforms, is there any reason the Hellenistic phalanxes stay the same for the whole period?

[Rad]

Why do you think the Carthaginian reforms are "what if"? The late Libyans and the Iberian settlers are realistic units. Or are you thinking of something else?

[Geffalrus]

Pretty sure the Reformed Phalanx was an interpretation of the historical phalanx used by Perseus at Pydna. The idea being that the historical experience of the Macedonians at Cynoscephalae led them to alter the phalanx slightly (different armor and shield are not major changes to the phalanx). It's not so much speculative as one of many interpretations of what happened between the two major battles. Doesn't mean it's guaranteed to be correct, only that the record is too incomplete to know for sure.

[Geffalrus]

@Dargaron: To build on your point - if you look at some of the sources we have for the armories in Amphipolis and Apamea (Antigonid and Seleucid respectively), the state seemed to be in the business of providing the essentials: sarissa, shield, and helmet. Because that is what you were fined for losing. That leaves body armor up to the individual. Over time, the phalanx probably became better armored because the individual soldiers in the phalanx were richer because Macedonian citizens were a precious military and political commodity in the Successor kingdoms. The kleroi estates that sustained them probably allowed them to use more expensive body armor than earlier phalangites. Probably. The historical record is not conclusive on this point.