Page 97 of 113 FirstFirst ... 477287888990919293949596979899100101102103104105106107 ... LastLast
Results 1,921 to 1,940 of 2246

Thread: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

  1. #1921
    Alastor's Avatar Senator
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Not home
    Posts
    1,308

    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jom View Post
    It makes me question whether some of these people knew how EU directives are actually adopted in the first place, or whether they bought into newspaper headlines that scream about EU bureaucrats deciding everything for them without being elected.
    Some?

  2. #1922
    Aexodus's Avatar Persuasion>Coercion
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Location
    NI
    Posts
    6,008

    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    EU law is formulated by the unelected commission. Only one of them is British, the rest are not. I’m just not happy with the commission being the only one to put new legislation to the floor.
    Patronised by Pontifex Maximus

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    Makes me think when I share my porridge with Cyclops Jnr every morning what I'm really doing is celebrating twin genocide-by-replacement events. "The oats represent the Borging of Mesolithic Europeans, the milk is for the Yamnaya rapist-warriors, and the salt is the tears of their victims. We add honey at the end because screw the bees, right?"

  3. #1923
    Alastor's Avatar Senator
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Not home
    Posts
    1,308

    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aexodus View Post
    EU law is formulated by the unelected commission. Only one of them is British, the rest are not. I’m just not happy with the commission being the only one to put new legislation to the floor.
    The Commission is nominated and confirmed to these positions by elected and state officials. The European Council and the European Parliament. Those two institutions maintain the sole right to amend and/or approve any legislative proposal submitted by the EC.

    EDIT: The exception to this process is I guess the Union's primary law, but I don't think you were talking about that specific subset. Since that is entirely within the purview of member-states.
    Last edited by Alastor; May 31, 2019 at 07:10 AM.

  4. #1924
    Aexodus's Avatar Persuasion>Coercion
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Location
    NI
    Posts
    6,008

    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alastor View Post
    The Commission is nominated and confirmed to these positions by elected and state officials. The European Council and the European Parliament. Those two institutions maintain the sole right to amend and/or approve any legislative proposal submitted by the EC.
    We can agree to disagree, but what you just laid out is why I feel there is a large democratic deficit in the EU.
    Patronised by Pontifex Maximus

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    Makes me think when I share my porridge with Cyclops Jnr every morning what I'm really doing is celebrating twin genocide-by-replacement events. "The oats represent the Borging of Mesolithic Europeans, the milk is for the Yamnaya rapist-warriors, and the salt is the tears of their victims. We add honey at the end because screw the bees, right?"

  5. #1925

    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aexodus View Post
    We can agree to disagree, but what you just laid out is why I feel there is a large democratic deficit in the EU.
    You mean apart from the fact that if we don't want to implement a law we can veto it. Yeah, that sounds very undemocratic, almost dictatorial...

  6. #1926
    Alastor's Avatar Senator
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Not home
    Posts
    1,308

    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aexodus View Post
    We can agree to disagree, but what you just laid out is why I feel there is a large democratic deficit in the EU.
    What I laid out shows that this process is controlled by elected officials. If that is a democratic deficit then your problem isn't with the EU but western democracies as a whole. I won't disagree with you if that is indeed your issue. It's simply not relevant to the discussion.

  7. #1927
    Aexodus's Avatar Persuasion>Coercion
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Location
    NI
    Posts
    6,008

    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    The top issue for leavers was British law should be made by britons in britain, and that we should control immigration. I’m trying, (and quite possibly failing) to convey why this is.
    Patronised by Pontifex Maximus

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    Makes me think when I share my porridge with Cyclops Jnr every morning what I'm really doing is celebrating twin genocide-by-replacement events. "The oats represent the Borging of Mesolithic Europeans, the milk is for the Yamnaya rapist-warriors, and the salt is the tears of their victims. We add honey at the end because screw the bees, right?"

  8. #1928
    Alastor's Avatar Senator
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Not home
    Posts
    1,308

    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aexodus View Post
    The top issue for leavers was British law should be made by britons in britain, and that we should control immigration. I’m trying, (and quite possibly failing) to convey why this is.
    It has already been conveyed why this is. It is because they don't understand how the EU works. It is because various groups within the UK made sure to misinform and lie to the people about these processes. It is because successive UK governments benefited from the EU boogeyman to deflect criticism over their own policies. Really it is quite clear why.
    Last edited by Alastor; May 31, 2019 at 07:27 AM.

  9. #1929
    Jom's Avatar A Place of Greater Safety
    Content Emeritus Administrator Emeritus

    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    18,460

    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aexodus View Post
    EU law is formulated by the unelected commission. Only one of them is British, the rest are not. I’m just not happy with the commission being the only one to put new legislation to the floor.
    This is like complaining that unelected civil servants devise policy initiatives that go into the budget. Just like the budget, anything devised by the Commission has to be approved by both (elected) legislatures.

    You're conveying your point fine: that lots of people felt that the EU was undemocratic. We're simply pointing out to you that it's not at all.

    "For what itís worth: itís never too late to be whoever you want to be. I hope you live a life youíre proud of, and if you find that youíre not, I hope you have the strength to start all over again."

  10. #1930
    Muizer's Avatar member 3519
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Netherlands
    Posts
    8,613

    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Well Aexodus does have a point about a democratic deficit, if only purely because the matter of scale, which means that the larger the population, the less each vote counts. I used to be concerned about these things, but the older I get the more abstract such concerns seem to me. I'm more inclined to base my judgements on practice rather than theory. Perhaps it is even better to have a union governed by a body that's come about through horse trading between national governments rather than one based solely on a majority in the European parliament, even if the latter would evidently be more democratic in a procedural sense. It may be better that compromise is hard coded this way than risk the kind of adversarial attitude and entrenchment that is poisoning quite a few national democracies.
    "Lay these words to heart, Lucilius, that you may scorn the pleasure which comes from the applause of the majority. Many men praise you; but have you any reason for being pleased with yourself, if you are a person whom the many can understand?" - Lucius Annaeus Seneca -

  11. #1931
    Jom's Avatar A Place of Greater Safety
    Content Emeritus Administrator Emeritus

    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    18,460

    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by Muizer View Post
    Well Aexodus does have a point about a democratic deficit, if only purely because the matter of scale, which means that the larger the population, the less each vote counts. I used to be concerned about these things, but the older I get the more abstract such concerns seem to me. I'm more inclined to base my judgements on practice rather than theory. Perhaps it is even better to have a union governed by a body that's come about through horse trading between national governments rather than one based solely on a majority in the European parliament, even if the latter would evidently be more democratic in a procedural sense. It may be better that compromise is hard coded this way than risk the kind of adversarial attitude and entrenchment that is poisoning quite a few national democracies.
    The qualified majority voting that the council uses takes into account population: voters for the resolution need to represent 65% of the EU's population, whilst those against it need to represent at least 35%.

    "For what itís worth: itís never too late to be whoever you want to be. I hope you live a life youíre proud of, and if you find that youíre not, I hope you have the strength to start all over again."

  12. #1932

    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aexodus View Post
    The top issue for leavers was British law should be made by britons in britain, and that we should control immigration. Iím trying, (and quite possibly failing) to convey why this is.


    Immigration isn't the top issue for most , except for racist parties.It's inequality. If the issue is about British law being made by Britons in Britain, why the outrage when the UK Parliament rejects Brexit?


    Quote Originally Posted by Alastor View Post
    It has already been conveyed why this is. It is because they don't understand how the EU works. It is because various groups within the UK made sure to misinform and lie to the people about these processes. It is because successive UK governments benefited from the EU boogeyman to deflect criticism over their own policies. Really it is quite clear why.
    Indeed. For too long the UK have been sold this lie that their improverishment was a necessary evil (austerity) or the fault of feckless working class benefit claimants, migrants, and so forth. all this whilst corporation tax was reduced to daft levels, or in some cases bugger all.
    Last edited by mongrel; May 31, 2019 at 10:14 AM.
    Absolutley Barking, Mudpit Mutt Former Patron: Garbarsardar

    "Out of the crooked tree of humanity,no straight thing can be made." Immanuel Kant
    "Oh Yeah? What about a cricket bat? That's pretty straight. Just off the top of my head..." Al Murray, Pub Landlord.

  13. #1933

    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by Basil II the B.S View Post
    Here's what I think will happen in the next weeks:
    -you'll participate in the EP elections, Farage will get a great result; some polls give him at 35% now, considering that some parties will not make it to the minimum thresold, that might as well translate to 40% of the UK seats (in theory);
    -these will not be converted into actual seats for MPs; you'll be leaving the EU before the end of the year because noone in Brussels wants to see Farage with those numbers;
    -it'll be used by the Conservatives to oust Theresa May; I think Bojo will take over from there;
    -Prime Minister Bojo will try to get a better deal;
    -He'll fail;
    2 box ticked, remaining 3 still within the realm of reality. Sticking to my prediction here.

  14. #1934
    Aexodus's Avatar Persuasion>Coercion
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Location
    NI
    Posts
    6,008

    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    I actually don’t like the EU council system. In my opinion it gives leaders too much Executive power.
    Patronised by Pontifex Maximus

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    Makes me think when I share my porridge with Cyclops Jnr every morning what I'm really doing is celebrating twin genocide-by-replacement events. "The oats represent the Borging of Mesolithic Europeans, the milk is for the Yamnaya rapist-warriors, and the salt is the tears of their victims. We add honey at the end because screw the bees, right?"

  15. #1935
    Jom's Avatar A Place of Greater Safety
    Content Emeritus Administrator Emeritus

    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    18,460

    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aexodus View Post
    I actually don’t like the EU council system. In my opinion it gives leaders too much Executive power.
    You're out of step with the masses, then. 54% want a strong leader.

    "For what itís worth: itís never too late to be whoever you want to be. I hope you live a life youíre proud of, and if you find that youíre not, I hope you have the strength to start all over again."

  16. #1936
    Aexodus's Avatar Persuasion>Coercion
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Location
    NI
    Posts
    6,008

    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jom View Post
    You're out of step with the masses, then. 54% want a strong leader.
    How did you go from Executive power to the public wanting a strong leader? They’re different things mate.
    Patronised by Pontifex Maximus

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    Makes me think when I share my porridge with Cyclops Jnr every morning what I'm really doing is celebrating twin genocide-by-replacement events. "The oats represent the Borging of Mesolithic Europeans, the milk is for the Yamnaya rapist-warriors, and the salt is the tears of their victims. We add honey at the end because screw the bees, right?"

  17. #1937
    Jom's Avatar A Place of Greater Safety
    Content Emeritus Administrator Emeritus

    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    18,460

    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aexodus View Post
    How did you go from Executive power to the public wanting a strong leader? They’re different things mate.
    Depends on your definition of "power" and "strong". Someone with a lot of executive power with no qualms about wielding it is clearly in a strong position.

    "For what itís worth: itís never too late to be whoever you want to be. I hope you live a life youíre proud of, and if you find that youíre not, I hope you have the strength to start all over again."

  18. #1938

    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aexodus View Post
    I actually don’t like the EU council system. In my opinion it gives leaders too much Executive power.
    The underlying complication is that the EU's foundations are unsuitable for the superstate ideal. That the Union was established on top of industrialist arrangements rather than democratic philosophies and/or institutions shows: there is a fundamental lack of clarity in the purpose and design of the Union's constitutional settlement. It now has that feel of an outdated video game engine crumbling underneath the weight of all its modifications.
    Last edited by ep1c_fail; May 31, 2019 at 11:52 AM.

  19. #1939

    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by mongrel View Post
    Immigration isn't the top issue for most , except for racist parties.It's inequality. If the issue is about British law being made by Britons in Britain, why the outrage when the UK Parliament rejects Brexit?
    LIES.
    When it comes to the referendum, immigration was the top worry for voters:
    https://www.ipsos.com/ipsos-mori/en-...-eu-referendum

    You just called 1/3 of the country racist. Good job.

    It's down in terms of priority now because May and her government messed up so hard that people started focusing on that.
    The main issue here is that many liberals have come up with the insane idea that the solution to racism is ethnically cleanse white people, because only white people can be racist. Under that logic, shutting down debate over immigration and calling everyone racist is necessary so that the ethnic cleansing can swiftly continue without interruption.
    Last edited by chriscase; June 01, 2019 at 02:58 AM. Reason: inflammatory removed

  20. #1940

    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alastor View Post
    Well first of all because you can't have 1 abolished. Based on the fact the UK is even stricter than the EU requires, clearly the UK doesn't want you armed a lot more than the EU doesn't want you armed. And besides had the UK not agreed to 2 it wouldn't have a 2. But why wouldn't it agree? When it serves their purpose.

    You want that changed? Try changing the UK first because, as is rather common with brexit arguments, your problem is with the UK, not the EU.
    Why can't 1 be abolished? An anti-gun government makes anti-gun laws, why can't a pro-gun government make pro-gun laws?

    The fact that matters is that when we get the UK into pro-gun, we DO NOT WANT to hear from the government or from Brussels that because we are still in EU, we still must abide to EU laws.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jom View Post
    And when was the last time a mainstream party mentioned anything about loosening gun controls in their manifesto?

    I must say, of all the subjects people have raised in order to complain about the EU, this is one of the oddest.
    I think UKIP raised it. I don't see how that's odd when the point is we DO NOT WANT an additional layers of laws from a SUPERSTATE that require MULTI-NATIONAL VOTES to change.

    You are dancing around this point because you know this is true.
    Last edited by REhorror; May 31, 2019 at 09:24 PM.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •