Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

[Muizer]

That's an interesting concept of democracy. That the electorate vote politicians into office to do solely what is best for them, rather than what they may want. Of course it fails to acknowledge the influemce of special interest groups, lobbyists, financial institutions and importantly party donors, in that decision making. Not the least, the qualifications or empirical process necessary in deciding what constitutes "best interest" other than simply having an opinon.

That is indeed an oft raised concern, and there are certainly cases where this seems justified (although much of 'the people' seem to keep voting those delegates back in power, so perhaps they don't mind?). On the other hand, an electorate that expects to be 'served' as an errand boy would serve them rewards politicians who say what the people want to hear. And that is of course where you get politicians in power unwilling or incapable of delivering what they promised. They usually 'solve' this by means of deflection: conjure up some enemy and/or blame someone else for their failure. That's something we're seeing a lot of lately.

It will be interesting to see (from a safe distance for me, fortunately) how 'leave' voters will approach the inevitable victims of Brexit. Are they going to tell people whose business collapsed or lost their jobs 'oh well, cheer up, at least we've got our sovereignty back!'. I predict not. They will say it's all because their errand boys in London messed up Brexit. Disown...disown....disown. The only way out of that is to have Boris and Nigel carry it out, I think. But yeah, the price will be high just to prove a point. I don't wish that upon you.

[Aexodus]

The policy is simply undeliverable as long as the Good Friday agreement is in place.

Why would that be?

That's an interesting concept of democracy. That the electorate vote politicians into office to do solely what is best for them, rather than what they may want. Of course it fails to acknowledge the influemce of special interest groups, lobbyists, financial institutions and importantly party donors, in that decision making. Not the least, the qualifications or empirical process necessary in deciding what constitutes "best interest" other than simply having an opinon.

If MPs do what is in the best interests of voters, who decides what their best interests are? In the Blair years, it was an opaque group of an autocratic inner circle.

[REhorror]

That is indeed an oft raised concern, and there are certainly cases where this seems justified (although much of 'the people' seem to keep voting those delegates back in power, so perhaps they don't mind?). On the other hand, an electorate that expects to be 'served' as an errand boy would serve them rewards politicians who say what the people want to hear. And that is of course where you get politicians in power unwilling or incapable of delivering what they promised. They usually 'solve' this by means of deflection: conjure up some enemy and/or blame someone else for their failure. That's something we're seeing a lot of lately.

It will be interesting to see (from a safe distance for me, fortunately) how 'leave' voters will approach the inevitable victims of Brexit. Are they going to tell people whose business collapsed or lost their jobs 'oh well, cheer up, at least we've got our sovereignty back!'. I predict not. They will say it's all because their errand boys in London messed up Brexit. Disown...disown....disown. The only way out of that is to have Boris and Nigel carry it out, I think. But yeah, the price will be high just to prove a point. I don't wish that upon you.

The people do mind, but what choices do they have?

They have: delegates who are in a cahoot with each other and will never deliver anything when they got into power (Brexit being the primal example, neither Tory or Labour want Brexit, so despite what the people vote for, they will never deliver).

The only solution for the people is open rebellion and scrap the delegate system in the first place, because voting will not solve anything.

[Daruwind]

The people do mind, but what choices do they have?

They have: delegates who are in a cahoot with each other and will never deliver anything when they got into power (Brexit being the primal example, neither Tory or Labour want Brexit, so despite what the people vote for, they will never deliver).

The only solution for the people is open rebellion and scrap the delegate system in the first place, because voting will not solve anything.

Great! Revolution often lead to way worse regime..dictators and such stuff Scrap delegates, we need just one Fuhrer. One Folk, ein Empire, eine Queen! Nah not queen somebody else right?

[REhorror]

Great! Revolution often lead to way worse regime..dictators and such stuff Scrap delegates, we need just one Fuhrer. One Folk, ein Empire, eine Queen! Nah not queen somebody else right?

One land, one king, such is the natural law of the world.

I'd rather have one dude ruling over me rather than a bunch of dudes ruling over me, because with the former, I know who to blame.

[mongrel]

One land, one king, such is the natural law of the world.

I'd rather have one dude ruling over me rather than a bunch of dudes ruling over me, because with the former, I know who to blame.

Let's stick real life. We have a Sovereign Parliament and they alone will decide how this farce will turn out.

Why would that be?

I'm surprised you need to ask. The DUP is all that prevents the government from falling. They simply won't allow different border arrangements from the rest of the UK. Not a problem whilst we are in the EU, a major problem if we leave , yet maintain Good Friday relationships with Eire. The compromise known as the Irish Backstop doesn't address this issue permanently.

If MPs do what is in the best interests of voters, who decides what their best interests are? In the Blair years, it was an opaque group of an autocratic inner circle.

Indeed but Parliament has in it's disposal the UK's best economists, scientists, lawers, generals and analysts to provide options, not that they can always be persuaded to accept such advice. Most major legislation is also subject to public consultation.

Keyboard warriors have to rely on non-entities like the milkshake bukkake monster Carl Benjamin.

What went wrong with Brexit was that it was made a manifesto commitment withoiut any work being done to see what benefits it would bring or what damage it would cause.

will never deliver anything when they got into power

Brexit is the reason why nothing is being delivered. It requires the review of over 1000 pieces of legislation eating up Parliamentary time and resource . No non-Brexit legislation or policies are being considered unless there are exceptional reasons or they relate to revenue-raising.

[Aexodus]

Not a problem whilst we are in the EU, a major problem if we leave , yet maintain Good Friday relationships with Eire. The compromise known as the Irish Backstop doesn't address this issue permanently.

What is the good friday relationship with the Republic?

[mongrel]

What is the good friday relationship with the Republic?

Again I wonder why the need to ask.


https://ukandeu.ac.uk/good-friday-ag...ers-in-brexit/

[Aexodus]

No, tell me why Brexit is undeliverable because of the GFA.

[Daruwind]

No, tell me why Brexit is undeliverable because of the GFA.

Think pretty much sums it.

[Daruwind]

One land, one king, such is the natural law of the world.

I'd rather have one dude ruling over me rather than a bunch of dudes ruling over me, because with the former, I know who to blame.

This is working when you have great rulers like Augustus Octavianus, Ceasar or Marcus Aurelius....problem is, sooner or later you will get somebody like Caligula. And because people like to scheme, for majority of powerful people weak ruler is better. Not saying that when people are making mistakes, people are dying...Hitler, Stalin , Mao Ce Tung..

[Daruwind]

[Delete Double post]

[Aexodus]

Think pretty much sums it.

He says a border in Ireland would break the Good Friday Agreement, which is patently untrue. There is no mention of open borders in the entire good friday agreement. It pledges for the military infrastructure which had been built in the troubles to be removed and for future co-operation between London and Dublin.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/455002...iday-agreement

Former UUP leader David Trimble has said that Brexit does not interfere with the operation of the Good Friday Agreement.

He also said there was no serious threat of post-Brexit violence as that issue had been "sorted" by the agreement and the actions of the security services.

But he said the agreement would be breached if Northern Ireland was part of a different trade regime than the rest of the UK.

Brexit does not violate the GFA. However, Theresa May’s backstop does.

https://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/lo...ment-1-8690878

Lord Trimble said: “There is a genuine risk that Northern Ireland will end up as part of an effective EU protectorate, without the say-so of the Northern Ireland Assembly.

“This would be an appalling breach of the principle of consent, which runs through the (Good Friday) agreement.”

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/poli...56791?mode=amp

He told RTE’s Today with Sean O’Rourke show that it is “daft” that there is a thought that Northern Ireland can be separated from the United Kingdom.

“The thought that they can separate Northern Ireland from the rest of the United Kingdom, that is what some people are talking about.

“By saying that somehow, we’re going to keep Northern Ireland within Europe, while the rest of the United Kingdom goes off.

“Now that is really daft, it factually ignores the basic principles laid down in the agreement”.

[REhorror]

Let's stick real life. We have a Sovereign Parliament and they alone will decide how this farce will turn out.

So in real life, we have a Sovereign Parliament who refuses to do what the populace has agreed upon and keeps inventing policies in order to delay it and ultimately forget it.

How do you suggest we deal with that?

[mongrel]

He says a border in Ireland would break the Good Friday Agreement, which is patently untrue. There is no mention of open borders in the entire good friday agreement. It pledges for the military infrastructure which had been built in the troubles to be removed and for future co-operation between London and Dublin.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/455002...iday-agreement


Brexit does not violate the GFA. However, Theresa May’s backstop does.

https://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/lo...ment-1-8690878


https://www.irishtimes.com/news/poli...56791?mode=amp

As I said undeliverable. Any change to the status quo requires the consent of a once bitterly divded people who have now become accustomed to the peace and freedoms they currently enjoy in a single market. The policy is also undeliverable on the point that it can potentially harm business.
If it was a conventional policy , it wouldn't get past consultation , let alone comitee stages.

So in real life, we have a Sovereign Parliament who refuses to do what the populace has agreed upon and keeps inventing policies in order to delay it and ultimately forget it.

How do you suggest we deal with that?

I suggest you do some reading on the issue. The Government has spent the last three years trying to implement Brexit to the exclusion of all other business. Indeed this years Queen Speech was deferred becausew there were no policies to announce. By any definition that is not refusing to implementg Brexit. The reason Brexit failed is down to Government incompetence, it should not have invoked Article 50 and should have considered the impact to the country if people voted to leave before offering a referendum. That and the fact that Ministers won't pubically admit that Brexit is undeliverable without much more work being done.

How we deal with it? It's not our problem, after all what material benefits do people other than tax dodgers and vulture capitalists get from Brexit? We aren't getting that £350 m per week, bthat's a fact. Brexit is a Tory Party problem. It proposed the idea, it messed up its delivery.

[REhorror]

I suggest you do some reading on the issue. The Government has spent the last three years trying to implement Brexit to the exclusion of all other business. Indeed this years Queen Speech was deferred becausew there were no policies to announce. By any definition that is not refusing to implementg Brexit. The reason Brexit failed is down to Government incompetence,.

Government incompetence which results in NOT implementing Brexit. I will argue that the will is not there, the Tory AND Labour do not want it to happen.

Now we have a drama show where big heads in the govt are discussing among themselves now for all of their trade benefits, with no input or action from the populace (who just wants to get out of the EU).

[mongrel]

Government incompetence which results in NOT implementing Brexit. I will argue that the will is not there, the Tory AND Labour do not want it to happen.

Now we have a drama show where big heads in the govt are discussing among themselves now for all of their trade benefits, with no input or action from the populace (who just wants to get out of the EU).

As I said earlier , I suggest you do some reseach on this. Actually one can't do much better than refer to Dante's excellent posts on the issue.The fact remains, the Government has spent 3 years on Brexit issues and nothing else.There is no denying it. And with due respoect, what you term the populace have not got a damned clue about the issues ( they were not only kept ignorant of them, they were lied to) and the great majority have lkittle inkling of the technical process required to unravel 4 decades worth of treaty and legislation. I have not seen a single argument that could convince a reasonable person as to why we must leave the EU right now. The only opinion worth a damn is that of businesses affected by this excercise.

[REhorror]

As I said earlier , I suggest you do some reseach on this. Actually one can't do much better than refer to Dante's excellent posts on the issue.The fact remains, the Government has spent 3 years on Brexit issues and nothing else.There is no denying it. And with due respoect, what you term the populace have not got a damned clue about the issues ( they were not only kept ignorant of them, they were lied to) and the great majority have lkittle inkling of the technical process required to unravel 4 decades worth of treaty and legislation. I have not seen a single argument that could convince a reasonable person as to why we must leave the EU right now. The only opinion worth a damn is that of businesses affected by this excercise.

People want to leave the EU because they want to be subjected to EU laws, and effectively be ruled by practically another government.

The UK government is hard enough, the EU one is even harder.

You talk about businesses when businesses are owned by the rich persons and the local populace has no dogs in that fight, they don't even care.

And no, the government can spend 10 years to "work" on Brexit, but intentionally, they do not want to do it, then in 10 years Brexit will not get done. They will just keep delaying again and come up with excuses, excuses like they are doing now.

[TheLeft]

People want to leave the EU because they want to be subjected to EU laws, and effectively be ruled by practically another government.

The UK government is hard enough, the EU one is even harder.

I assume you meant to say that "they DON'T want to be subjected to EU laws". Otherwise that statement make no sense at all.

But please tell me, which EU laws do you not want to be subjected to? Which specific pieces of legislation have been upsetting you so much that you'd happily risk tanking the economy just to be free of them?

Also, what makes the EU 'hard'? Is it all the extra holiday and the better working conditions we get? Is it the ability to travel, work and trade freely throughout Europe?

[REhorror]

I assume you meant to say that "they DON'T want to be subjected to EU laws". Otherwise that statement make no sense at all.

But please tell me, which EU laws do you not want to be subjected to? Which specific pieces of legislation have been upsetting you so much that you'd happily risk tanking the economy just to be free of them?

Also, what makes the EU 'hard'? Is it all the extra holiday and the better working conditions we get? Is it the ability to travel, work and trade freely throughout Europe?

Honestly?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europe...arms_Directive

There you go. That was easy.

And no, outsourcing your economy to member EU state is actually TANKING your economy and infrastructure, actually develop domestic industries mean you actually have a good economic base.

And yes, they DON'T want to be subjected to EU laws.