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Thread: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

  1. #161

    Default Re: Brexit-time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aexodus View Post
    It's funny how a year and a half later, Brexit is still being questioned.

    Whats more important, democracy, or economy.

    The fundamental reason why a lot of people voted leave was to have control, freedom over our own choices as a country. To many this was more important to economic forecasts such as a 20% decrease in foreign investment. On the contrary, it is at 'record levels', as well as the savings made on the EU budget contribution, in which we were a net contributor, not a recipient.

    Our money was going to Eastern Europe (Romania, Poland etc) yet Eastern Europe's migrants were coming to us, on the broad trend.
    You poor soul, you really have not grasped how limited are choices are.


    Love to see how May is going to develop trade with the West Indies or indeed the wider Commonwealth given the recent shenanigans.
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  2. #162
    Dante Von Hespburg's Avatar Sloth's Inferno
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    Default Re: Brexit-time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aexodus View Post
    It's funny how a year and a half later, Brexit is still being questioned.

    Whats more important, democracy, or economy.

    The fundamental reason why a lot of people voted leave was to have control, freedom over our own choices as a country. To many this was more important to economic forecasts such as a 20% decrease in foreign investment. On the contrary, it is at 'record levels', as well as the savings made on the EU budget contribution, in which we were a net contributor, not a recipient.

    Our money was going to Eastern Europe (Romania, Poland etc) yet Eastern Europe's migrants were coming to us, on the broad trend.
    I think a key reason why its still being questioned is the political-route the Conservatives took with it. You have an already very divisive issue- with a referendum vote that essentially (and arguably like the Scottish referendum before it) was not 'enough' either way to settle the issue soundly- that's already a nightmare, and then you have the Tories seize control of the brexit process, spin the rhetoric of us vs them to garner public support- fight the 2017 election nearly entirely around being the party of brexit vs the 'rest' (and come off worse with that- losing their majority)- it literally now overlaid brexit with party affinity- and moreover polarized potential supporters and remainers from meeting in the middle by then driving a 'Conservative vision' for brexit- when in fact since 2017 they don't even have a popular mandate for that under the FPTP system, instead relying on a supply and demand arrangement with a devolved-based party in Ireland which further undermines the political legitimacy for them to carry out brexit with no regard to the views of other parties.

    I'll say it probably the umpteenth time - its a huge mistake that is biting them on the arse- after the 2017 election results there was a mandate for a 'national government' (as in dealing with the Great Depression) where cabinet would be filled with MP's from all parties- positions dictated by their vote share of their party (Also who else thinks it would be amusing to see May as PM, with Corbyn as her deputy- Clegg and Cameron was dubbed 'the bromance' early on...i doubt we'd see any of that ) and come to a compromise position. Not only would the government actually then be strong enough to not be at the mercy of extremist brexiteers or remainers (The Legatus group has some of the most illiterate policy ideas I've yet to have the misfortune to see- most being at home in the conditions of 'free trade' during the early 19th century- not the populist and protectionist policies we are now seeing, and scarily they are now a major influence on the May cabinet)- moreover their ideas will have unilateral support, speeding the process- that has been so damn slow, and the newfound stability indeed even allowing for proper analysis and negotiation prep and goals to take place- instead of as now a Conservative government having to concentrate on party divides first, then not losing a vote in Parliament to oppostional parties second, and then negotiations with the actual EU last- its literally a political grave of their own making that never needed to be.
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  3. #163

    Default Re: Brexit-time to scrap it and start again?

    I see the hosue of Lords have rejected the EU Withdrawl Bill in their view the Government should retain a Customs Union and do more to protect peoples employment and other rights,

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a8311051.html

    It will strengthen the hand of pro-customs union Conservative MPs, who plan to force the issue in the Commons.But the more time wasted on this ( why May can't take a cross-party line on this Lord knows) the more likely May will run out of road before B-Day.
    Absolutley Barking, Mudpit Mutt Former Patron: Garbarsardar

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  4. #164
    caratacus's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Brexit-time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by mongrel View Post
    I see the hosue of Lords have rejected the EU Withdrawl Bill in their view the Government should retain a Customs Union and do more to protect peoples employment and other rights,

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a8311051.html
    I guess that fine democratic institution the House of Lords, fully understands how the British people feel about authoritative bodies that aren't representative and who voted in referendum accordingly. So much so they are insisting the elected government report to them on the means by which the Country can be kept inside the Customs Union, and all the restrictions that go with that. Don't worry Mongrel, Brexit, or at least the Brexit that folk thought they were having when they put the cross on the ballot paper, won't be happening thanks to a select band of individuals such as these. This must be the type of European democracy that Macron was espousing the other day.

    Jeez!! hasn't changed since the days of the Iron Duke and the Lords opposition block to reforming the Corn Laws.
    Viva Freedom, Viva democracy, Viva Europe!! and all that stuff don't you know what, what!!

  5. #165

    Default Re: Brexit-time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by caratacus View Post
    I guess that fine democratic institution the House of Lords, fully understands how the British people feel about authoritative bodies that aren't representative and who voted in referendum accordingly. So much so they are insisting the elected government report to them on the means by which the Country can be kept inside the Customs Union, and all the restrictions that go with that. Don't worry Mongrel, Brexit, or at least the Brexit that folk thought they were having when they put the cross on the ballot paper, won't be happening thanks to a select band of individuals such as these. This must be the type of European democracy that Macron was espousing the other day.

    Jeez!! hasn't changed since the days of the Iron Duke and the Lords opposition block to reforming the Corn Laws.
    Viva Freedom, Viva democracy, Viva Europe!! and all that stuff don't you know what, what!!

    Fair points, but...............
    Wasn't the whole point of Brexit to make Parliament have sovereign control of 'our lawz'? That is exactly what the House of Lords is doing, taking control of our laws and putting them to scrutiny.The Commons will now take its turn to haggle over the clauses.

    I'm and I'm proud.

    Its up to the Commons to produce something that is workable, fat chance if they behave as they have done over the previous 12 months. That's what happens when you put a gun to the country's head by invoking Article 50 too early then not bothering to consider impacts and outcomes in reasonable time.The Lords can work across party lines, Its about time the Commons did the same.
    Last edited by mongrel; April 21, 2018 at 08:29 AM.
    Absolutley Barking, Mudpit Mutt Former Patron: Garbarsardar

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  6. #166
    caratacus's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Brexit-time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by mongrel View Post
    Fair points, but...............
    Wasn't the whole point of Brexit to make Parliament have sovereign control of 'our lawz'? That is exactly what the House of Lords is doing, taking control of our laws and putting them to scrutiny.The Commons will now take its turn to haggle over the clauses.
    The House of Lords is doing nothing of the sort, as well you know. It has become a House comprised of political cronies who have no taste for Brexit or indeed anything else that rocks their very comfortable boat, and the backwash from it leaves them floundering.

    Fortunately there are stil wise men who sit within it, such as Lord Forsyth and Lord Lawson.


    I'm and I'm proud.
    And there is me having you down as an old style lefty Corbynista


    Its up to the Commons to produce something that is workable, fat chance if they behave as they have done over the previous 12 months. That's what happens when you put a gun to the country's head by invoking Article 50 too early then not bothering to consider impacts and outcomes in reasonable time.The Lords can work across party lines, Its about time the Commons did the same.
    There isn't agreement within the Conservatives for the direction of Brexit let alone trying to secure cross party support within the Commons. On the opposition benches, the vast majority only wish to place the direction in reverse and thwart the wishes of the electorate. Indeed it would appear that such opinion is sufficiently strong enough in members of the Government(including the PM) to achieve the same objective by taking us all on a long circulatory route to end up from the place from which we started.
    Brexit: Why Brussels seems relaxed about the end game
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-43788080

    After all the impatient European foot-tapping, the incessant talk of ticking clocks and of Article 50 time running out, there's a distinctly laid-back air in Brussels at the moment when it comes to Brexit.

    "Relations are a lot more normalised between the UK and the rest of the us after the Salisbury attacks and the show of solidarity with Britain at the EU leaders' summit two weeks ago," one European diplomat told me.

    "Besides which," he added with a glint in his eye, "we know the Brexit drill by now.

    "The UK makes a fuss, tells us things are unacceptable - like the financial settlement (the so-called Brexit bill), and like allowing EU citizens the right to stay permanently in the UK, even if they only move there in the transition period after Brexit - but the British Government gives in, in the end. Even if they dress up the fact to make it more acceptable at home."
    And that report is coming from a anti Brexit news outlet.

  7. #167

    Default Re: Brexit-time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by caratacus View Post
    The House of Lords is doing nothing of the sort, as well you know. It has become a House comprised of political cronies who have no taste for Brexit or indeed anything else that rocks their very comfortable boat, and the backwash from it leaves them floundering.

    Fortunately there are stil wise men who sit within it, such as Lord Forsyth and Lord Lawson.


    And there is me having you down as an old style lefty Corbynista



    There isn't agreement within the Conservatives for the direction of Brexit let alone trying to secure cross party support within the Commons. On the opposition benches, the vast majority only wish to place the direction in reverse and thwart the wishes of the electorate. Indeed it would appear that such opinion is sufficiently strong enough in members of the Government(including the PM) to achieve the same objective by taking us all on a long circulatory route to end up from the place from which we started.

    And that report is coming from a anti Brexit news outlet.
    I think you are harsh regarding the Lords, at least that House is functioning according to spec. The problem is entirely with the Commons, in my view .


    Something which first cropped up under Cameron is this desire for the executive to get 100% of what it wants, but it is absolutely frightened of losing a Commons vote. I would put money on May's people abstaining in October when this comes back to the Commons. There simply is not a majority of MPs in favour of a hard Brexit including leaving the CU and ECJ. If they do, May will simply fudge on until the next milestone, probably an EU summit by which time she will have no choice but to capitulate.* There are however more than 48 Tory MPs who want a hard Brexit,that being the magic number require to trigger a leadership election. They may realise this is a likely scenario and pull the rug under the whole thing, reducing our negotiations to a shambles.

    *Judging from your article the EU member states are thinking the same way. May has no choice but to cave in, given the woeful preparation for Brexit.
    Last edited by mongrel; April 23, 2018 at 11:00 PM.
    Absolutley Barking, Mudpit Mutt Former Patron: Garbarsardar

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  8. #168
    Muizer's Avatar member 3519
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    Default Re: Brexit-time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aexodus View Post
    The fundamental reason why a lot of people voted leave was to have control, freedom over our own choices as a country. To many this was more important to economic forecasts such as a 20% decrease in foreign investment.
    Unfortunately, "the people" who voted for Brexit won't accept responsibility if things do go wrong. In that case, come the next elections, they will likely blame the failure of what they themselves voted for on the people they themselves chose as representatives. That's not particular to Brexit btw. The electorate in general is very much like a spoilt child in most democracies.
    "Lay these words to heart, Lucilius, that you may scorn the pleasure which comes from the applause of the majority. Many men praise you; but have you any reason for being pleased with yourself, if you are a person whom the many can understand?" - Lucius Annaeus Seneca -

  9. #169

    Default Re: Brexit-time to scrap it and start again?

    They voted to exit EU. They didn't for vote for politicians to be inept, corrupt and ineffective (which is pretty much the reason why things are going wrong). Plus given how UK is growing to be more authoritarian, should electorate even be held responsible for failures of government that goes at great lengths to silence criticism against it?

  10. #170

    Default Re: Brexit-time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    They voted to exit EU. They didn't for vote for politicians to be inept, corrupt and ineffective (which is pretty much the reason why things are going wrong). Plus given how UK is growing to be more authoritarian, should electorate even be held responsible for failures of government that goes at great lengths to silence criticism against it?
    Pointless post, adding nothing to the discussion, which is about Brexit and nothing else.

    Quote Originally Posted by Muizer View Post
    Unfortunately, "the people" who voted for Brexit won't accept responsibility if things do go wrong. In that case, come the next elections, they will likely blame the failure of what they themselves voted for on the people they themselves chose as representatives. That's not particular to Brexit btw. The electorate in general is very much like a spoilt child in most democracies.
    I think ordinary people will have to take the damage should Brexit turn out badly (whether the idea itself is flawed , or it isn't .but is implemented badly) in any event. One can't evade import tarrifs and price rises.And if one's driving licence is useless in Europe, I presume Brixiteers will have to accept that is something of their own making. It's the comentariat, the people who pushed for a referendum and those who failed to inform voters of the serious amount of work involved and the impact of Brexit who will escape the consequences. Murdoch and Rothermere the main promoters of Brexit don't even live in Britain. Cameron and Gideon Osborne quite literally cannot be asked.
    Last edited by mongrel; April 26, 2018 at 12:31 AM.
    Absolutley Barking, Mudpit Mutt Former Patron: Garbarsardar

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  11. #171
    JP226's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Brexit-time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    They voted to exit EU. They didn't for vote for politicians to be inept, corrupt and ineffective (which is pretty much the reason why things are going wrong). Plus given how UK is growing to be more authoritarian, should electorate even be held responsible for failures of government that goes at great lengths to silence criticism against it?
    Well, there is no semblance of democracy in the UK or half-assed republicanism, if they hold a do-over vote. It's a damn shame and keeps making me ask the point, why do they even bother pretending to be a western democracy at this point?
    Sure I've been called a xenophobe, but the truth is Im not. I honestly feel that America is the best country and all other countries aren't as good. That used to be called patriotism.

  12. #172

    Default Re: Brexit-time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by JP226 View Post
    Well, there is no semblance of democracy in the UK or half-assed republicanism, if they hold a do-over vote. It's a damn shame and keeps making me ask the point, why do they even bother pretending to be a western democracy at this point?
    What I say to HH goes for you too, as you would surely have gathered from the excellent points raised in this thread that the issues are far more complicated than any individual's interpretation of what people voted for.

    Now latest news is that.................


    MPs have voted overwhelmingly to stay in the Customs Union, although the vote is non binding. Theresa May insists that the UK is leaving, Amber Rudd is saying that we are leaving it but could join a new Customs arrangement.

    This red line has but May in an unecessary bind, as the Tory Dominic Greive said today there was not a single economic analysis showing the advantages of free trade deals outside the EU outweighing the advantages of staying in the single market and the customs union. He's had the advantage of reading impact assessments that the public are not allowed access to.

    But being in the Customs Union restricts what the UK can do by way of negotiating deals unilaterally and Brexit was sold on that happening without cost to us or the nation. Another reason why Cameron should have been honest with the public before arranging a vote he arrogantly thought he would win.

    In the meantime farmers and suppliers have to plan how and if they will import or export stuff in 11 months time, and we also have to work out if we need to recruit and train an extra 5000 Customs officers or not. Shambles.
    Last edited by mongrel; April 26, 2018 at 11:43 AM.
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  13. #173

    Default Re: Brexit-time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by JP226 View Post
    Well, there is no semblance of democracy in the UK or half-assed republicanism, if they hold a do-over vote. It's a damn shame and keeps making me ask the point, why do they even bother pretending to be a western democracy at this point?
    Well, they want to pretend to be a democracy, but they don't want to take criticism or accountability like governments in democratic countries do. So the whole talk about "new" vote isn't surprising, I recall similar patterns in other area of Europe where same vote is held multiple times until pro-EU outcome is achieved.

  14. #174
    Aexodus's Avatar Persuasion>Coercion
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    Default Re: Brexit-time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by mongrel View Post
    I think ordinary people will have to take the damage should Brexit turn out badly (whether the idea itself is flawed , or it isn't .but is implemented badly) in any event.
    People voted to leave for completely different reasons that people voted to stay. A majority of people just thought that control over U.K. law and trade, lowering borders and immigration, and leaving the ever-expanding eu superstate were more important than economy. If you disagree, that doesn't mean we should halt Brexit.
    https://lordashcroftpolls.com/2016/0...voted-and-why/
    • Nearly half (49%) of leave voters said the biggest single reason for wanting to leave the EU was “the principle that decisions about the UK should be taken in the UK”. One third (33%) said the main reason was that leaving “offered the best chance for the UK to regain control over immigration and its own borders.” Just over one in eight (13%) said remaining would mean having no choice “about how the EU expanded its membership or its powers in the years ahead.” Only just over one in twenty (6%) said their main reason was that “when it comes to trade and the economy, the UK would benefit more from being outside the EU than from being part of it.”
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



    One can't evade import tarrifs and price rises.
    Norway and Switzerland can.

    And if one's driving licence is useless in Europe
    Its valid in Canada and America, why would they make it invalid.

    Murdoch and Rothermere the main promoters of Brexit don't even live in Britain.
    The main promoters of Brexit were Michael Gove, Boris Johnson and Nigel Farage.
    Last edited by Aexodus; April 26, 2018 at 01:29 PM.
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    The trick is to never be honest. That's what this social phenomenon is engineering: publicly conform, or else.

  15. #175
    Muizer's Avatar member 3519
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    Default Re: Brexit-time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by mongrel View Post
    It's the comentariat, the people who pushed for a referendum and those who failed to inform voters of the serious amount of work involved and the impact of Brexit who will escape the consequences. Murdoch and Rothermere the main promoters of Brexit don't even live in Britain. Cameron and Gideon Osborne quite literally cannot be asked.
    I appreciate the sentiment, but what your argument comes down to is that the electorate cannot be trusted to tell fact from fiction and that is essentially an argument against democracy itself.
    "Lay these words to heart, Lucilius, that you may scorn the pleasure which comes from the applause of the majority. Many men praise you; but have you any reason for being pleased with yourself, if you are a person whom the many can understand?" - Lucius Annaeus Seneca -

  16. #176

    Default Re: Brexit-time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aexodus View Post
    People voted to leave for completely different reasons that people voted to stay. A majority of people just thought that control over U.K. law and trade, lowering borders and immigration, and leaving the ever-expanding eu superstate were more important than economy. If you disagree, that doesn't mean we should halt Brexit.
    [url]https://lordashcroftpolls.com/2016/06/how-the-united-kingdom-voted-and-why.
    Parliament is the seat of our sovereignty, yet hard Brexiteers seem to have forgotten this.I would also like to think that Parliament will determine a course that is in the nation's best interest regardless of dogma, but knowing what that is difficult given the woeful preparations thus far.

    I find it peculiar that much of the the electorate bought the myth of austerity but expect the magic money tree to bail out the Brexit process. You have no idea how much spending and red tape is involved just to get the most basic processes in place. I feel Cameron had a duty to disclose this


    Quote Originally Posted by Aexodus View Post
    Norway and Switzerland can.
    As part of a single market, which someone doesn't want.



    Quote Originally Posted by Aexodus View Post
    Its valid in Canada and America, why would they make it invalid.
    We'd have to pay. Likewise the E111 card will cost us too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aexodus View Post
    The main promoters of Brexit were Michael Gove, Boris Johnson and Nigel Farage.
    Whose every word were lionised by an uncritical press owned by foreigners and tax exiles. Where is the £350 million per week for the NHS now? Hell , things are so desperate now that a black briton received a £54,000 for cancer treatment.

    Quote Originally Posted by Muizer View Post
    I appreciate the sentiment, but what your argument comes down to is that the electorate cannot be trusted to tell fact from fiction and that is essentially an argument against democracy itself.
    No, it is essentially that Cameron thought and now May thinks that the electorate cannot be trusted to tell fact from fiction and deliberatley held back key facts which would have made most people, the less ideologically driven (either way) come to a reasoned decision.


    There would be exceptions , including me, financially and professionally I worked out that Brexit would be in my best interests and so it has proved. But there will be losers, a lot of them, possibly the nation itself, and I certainly feel that some may have voted on a false premise.
    Last edited by mongrel; April 26, 2018 at 02:51 PM.
    Absolutley Barking, Mudpit Mutt Former Patron: Garbarsardar

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  17. #177
    Papay's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Brexit-time to scrap it and start again?

    Brexit secretary David Davis just resigned. Can someone who knows explain why?

  18. #178

    Default Re: Brexit-time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by Papay View Post
    Brexit secretary David Davis just resigned. Can someone who knows explain why?
    Because he didn't get what he wanted

  19. #179
    Aexodus's Avatar Persuasion>Coercion
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    Default Re: Brexit-time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by 95thrifleman View Post
    Because he didn't get what he wanted
    Which is what he rest of the country democratically voted for. Control of our laws, trade, and borders. This deal delivers none of that.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics...ry-reports-say
    Davis sent a bluntly worded resignation letter to Theresa May, saying he would not be a “reluctant conscript” to her plan, which was “certainly not returning control of our laws in any real sense”. Davis has told friends he cannot live with the soft Brexit stance agreed between ministers on Friday, which proposes a “UK-EU free trade area”, governed by a “common rule book”.
    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...nd-the-meaning
    The U.K. would "commit by treaty to ongoing harmonization with EU rules on goods."
    • There will be no race to the bottom on regulations. This is one of the favorite themes of EU chief negotiator Michel Barnier: The EU can’t have on its doorstep a country that’s trying to undercut the EU by slashing regulation. The U.K. commits to keeping "high regulatory standards for the environment, climate change, social and employment and consumer protection, meaning we would not let standards fall below their current levels."
    So we’ll follow the same rules, with even less of a say in how they’re made than before.

    And we can’t make our own regulations, because the EU doesn’t want any semblance of competition.

    ‘What’s good for Britain is bad for the Union, comrade’

    The court is a symbol of lost sovereignty for the Brexiteers, and May has promised it won’t have direct jurisdiction in the U.K. after Brexit.
    • The proposal sees a role for the ECJ as an interpreter of EU rules as part of a plan to have a joint committee interpret and enforce agreements between the two sides.
    We won’t even get our own ing courts back, again following EU law and decree, with no say how they’re made. This is sheer madness by May.
    Last edited by Aexodus; July 08, 2018 at 08:24 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Himster View Post
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  20. #180
    Diocle's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Brexit-time to scrap it and start again?

    I've found this, it may help, I suppose:

    "We are leaving the EU and Soft Brexit means remaining within the EU, Soft Brexit is not honest, it is trying to undermine the result we had the last year. So, Clear Brexit is the Best Brexit!"


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