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Thread: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

  1. #101
    Muizer's Avatar member 3519
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    Default Re: Brexit-time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by Greyblades View Post
    I wish that we had been offered the prepared exit option, but we werent.
    Generally speaking, I agree it's never a good idea to have a referendum on something without having a very clear picture of what a "yes" or "no" vote means. Without that, it's inevitable that discussions arise about how the outcome should be interpreted. In your case, amongst other things, the hard vs soft brexit debate.

    On the other hand how could your government have presented something concrete to vote on? Negotiate with Brussels first? They'd go for the worst possible deal to ensure it would be rejected in a referendum. From that perspective you're arguably better off starting negotiations with all parties knowing the deal will go through as agreed.

    It's possible the current murky process will actually yield the optimal result for you, yet many who voted 'leave' will hate it and revile politics for it.
    "Lay these words to heart, Lucilius, that you may scorn the pleasure which comes from the applause of the majority. Many men praise you; but have you any reason for being pleased with yourself, if you are a person whom the many can understand?" - Lucius Annaeus Seneca -

  2. #102
    neoptolemos's Avatar Breatannach Romanus
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    Default Re: Brexit-time to scrap it and start again?

    What troubles me is that I am not aware of some politicians in UK to grow a spine and discuss a possible reverse course openly. It all looks to me like the titanic going straight towards the iceberg and all that matters is to stay on course rather than diverge.....
    Quem faz injúria vil e sem razão,Com forças e poder em que está posto,Não vence; que a vitória verdadeira É saber ter justiça nua e inteira-He who, solely to oppress,Employs or martial force, or power, achieves No victory; but a true victory Is gained,when justice triumphs and prevails.
    Luís de Camões

  3. #103
    Ferrets54's Avatar Praefectus Praetorio
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    Default Re: Brexit-time to scrap it and start again?

    There are politicians who are against it, like Blair, Lord Adonis and the Liberal Democrats. Being against it in the Tories means resigning from Government and Labour are going through a "why can't it be the 1920s" phase.

  4. #104
    bigdaddy1204's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Brexit-time to scrap it and start again?

    The UK government today is like the Angeloi in the Byzantine empire in the run up to 1204. Ineffectual to the point of destroying the country.
    Quote Originally Posted by Adar View Post
    I am quite impressed by the fact that you managed to make such a rant but still manage to phrase it in such a way that it is neither relevant to the thread nor to the topic you are trying to introduce to the thread.

  5. #105

    Default Re: Brexit-time to scrap it and start again?

    You can't make it up.

    May/Brexit won't allow EU seasonal workers to help pick British fruit , result- fruit to be grown in China , using Chinese labour.


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics...it-uncertainty
    Absolutley Barking, Mudpit Mutt Former Patron: Garbarsardar

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  6. #106
    caratacus's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Brexit-time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by mongrel View Post
    You can't make it up.

    May/Brexit won't allow EU seasonal workers to help pick British fruit , result- fruit to be grown in China , using Chinese labour.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics...it-uncertainty
    Rubbish! The clue is in the word seasonal. There isn't any reason to think that Brexit will fundamentally effect the amount of seasonal migrant labour employed in the agricultural sector. People came from Europe for years before open borders picking crops and will continue to do so after Brexit. Some farms even employ many from outside the EU.

    In fact better regulation of employment within the agricultural sector is long overdue. Is this the type of thing you want to continue in the UK? Because it sure isn't being done for keeping prices down, just profits up. From the same newspaper you got your story and its far from unusual!
    Men arrested on suspicion of slavery offences in Cornwall
    Welfare of 200 workers is being checked after raid at a flower-picking farm near Helston

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...id-in-cornwall
    The exploitation of migrants has become our way of life
    https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...business-model
    "Last week we reported on a group of 30 or so Lithuanian workers who were being severely abused and exploited while working as chicken catchers, rounding up hens on the UK’s largest poultry farms. They were part of the supply chain producing eggs for most of the UK’s largest retailers. The conditions – typically weeks of more than 120 hours, continuously on the move, charged for squalid tied housing, with allegations of pay withheld, threats of violence and actual assault – were intolerable."
    Last edited by caratacus; February 11, 2018 at 05:36 PM.

  7. #107

    Default Re: Brexit-time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by caratacus View Post
    Rubbish! The clue is in the word seasonal. There isn't any reason to think that Brexit will fundamentally effect the amount of seasonal migrant labour employed in the agricultural sector. People came from Europe for years before open borders picking crops and will continue to do so after Brexit. Some farms even employ many from outside the EU.!

    There is no evidence that this administration intends to improve workers rights, the Government, cannot or won't say at this time. We know the thoughts of May's rivals.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...rective-rights

    Fruit doesn't spontaneously generate itself, planning to harvest has to be done months in advance. No farm is going to operate without a reliable supply of labour. Animals and plants cost money to keep and unproductive lifeforms are a sure means to insolvency.

    Citing examples of modern slavery is utterly irrelevant. Abolishing EU regulations would actually legitimise such practices, not the other way round. For example one piece of legislation vulnerable to 'reform' under a Henry viii power are the Working Time Regulations, which enforces an average 48 working hours a week though individuals may voluntarily choose to work longer by "opting out", paid annual leave of 5.6 weeks' a year. 11 consecutive hours' rest in any 24-hour period.



    Brexit isn't intended to improve worker's rights. Hardened Brexiteers would like to see many rights removed, however,the truth of it can be found here:

    http://www.employmentsolicitor.com/g...mployment-law/
    Last edited by mongrel; February 12, 2018 at 01:54 AM.
    Absolutley Barking, Mudpit Mutt Former Patron: Garbarsardar

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  8. #108
    caratacus's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Brexit-time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by mongrel View Post
    There is no evidence that this administration intends to improve workers rights, the Government, cannot or won't say at this time. We know the thoughts of May's rivals.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...rective-rights
    Agreed

    Fruit doesn't spontaneously generate itself, planning to harvest has to be done months in advance. No farm is going to operate without a reliable supply of labour. Animals and plants cost money to keep and unproductive lifeforms are a sure means to insolvency.
    There is no evidence that Brexit has made the slightest bit of difference to the amount of people coming into the Country as seasonal labour. It didn't before EU open borders were introduced, it shouldn't now. Introducing a simple visa system would not be too difficult even for the present government.

    "Animals and plants cost money to keep and unproductive lifeforms are a sure means to insolvency." The agricultural sector is one of the few areas in which insolvency isn't a constant threat thanks to the over generosity of CAP! Its the reason we need to scrap it in the UK and build a farming sector fit for purpose, i.e providing cheap, quality food for the British table. Instead of shipping boatloads of heavily subsidized milk and lamb across the globe to the Far East and importing produce we could so easily grow here.
    Citing examples of modern slavery is utterly irrelevant. Abolishing EU regulations would actually legitimise such practices, not the other way round. For example one piece of legislation vulnerable to 'reform' under a Henry viii power are the Working Time Regulations, which enforces an average 48 working hours a week though individuals may voluntarily choose to work longer by "opting out", paid annual leave of 5.6 weeks' a year. 11 consecutive hours' rest in any 24-hour period.
    No it's not irrelevant at all. Exploitation is at the heart of the problem for open borders. It is useless citing EU employment law, if you don't know the people are in the Country to begin with. If each employer was regulated and each employee had a visa, you could then ensure exploitation on the scale currently being practiced would not take place.

    Shame the British Labour (even its Marxist Momentum faction) has such little concern over the use of EU freedom of movement by employers to exploit labour. Perhaps instead of citing concerns over loss of seasonal labour they should consider the conditions these people are employed in. If Corbyn really does feel Brexit is a risk to bringing in the harvest, perhaps a solution would be to offer students a hefty reduction on their student loan repayments for helping out. A better service to the nation instead of wafting free cash under their noses for tuition fees, as an inducement to vote Labour. That sort of thing was outlawed in the 18th century.

    Brexit isn't intended to improve worker's rights. Hardened Brexiteers would like to see many rights removed, however,the truth of it can be found here:
    http://www.employmentsolicitor.com/g...mployment-law/
    I am sure better employment law is certainly not the Tories first priority after Brexit. But the present system is far from satisfactory and after Brexit will at least be able to be reformed within Parliament rather than referred to an unaccountable organisation in Brussels.

    "Obviously, Parliament is free to amend and repeal EU derived laws, via primary legislation, following Brexit."
    Those who think that Brexit is simply about leaving the EU better think again. It's about taking back control and any government that attempts to thwart that process will be faced with the same opposition in the polls that Cameron faced selling a reformed EU. The Tories didn't want Brexit and neither did most MPs who oppose them, because not only the EU is broken democratically so is our Parliamentary system. It is the reason that the whole Brexit process is turning into a fiasco.

  9. #109

    Default Re: Brexit-time to scrap it and start again?

    These are all fair arguments.+rep, although I trust Brussels more iro employment rights than the current administration .

    Just to provide balance, it's not all the Tories's fault. I sense that most Labour supporters desire soft Brexit with customs union and soforth.
    O Jeremy Corbyn on the other hand wants various industries nationalised. That can only happen under an extreme hard Brexit. He ought to be less selfish.
    Absolutley Barking, Mudpit Mutt Former Patron: Garbarsardar

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    "Oh Yeah? What about a cricket bat? That's pretty straight. Just off the top of my head..." Al Murray, Pub Landlord.

  10. #110
    Dante Von Hespburg's Avatar Sloth's Inferno
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    Default Re: Brexit-time to scrap it and start again?

    What did anyone else think of today's first of four 'Big Brexit speeches'. This first one taken by Boris Johnson. Supposedly they are to outline exactly what the Government is seeking both from the EU and also post-brexit the world. Yet Boris's i was (perhaps expectedly considering its him) disappointed. It was genuinely as if he'd written the speech for the day after the referendum (or indeed for during the campaign)- it was 'making a positive case for brexit'- no detail, no substance. Amusing in places in terms of delivery, but what little message there was, was horrifying- it seemed to me to confirm the government paper (That MP's have slowly been allowed to see more and more of), as well the musings of the Conservative back benches in that the UK is looking to undermine or scrap working rights and protections to partake in a 'race to the bottom'- the emphasis on diverging from regulation too was worrying, as in between the jokes about 'environmental protection for snails- how silly', belies the issue that it means their looking to not 'strengthen' environmental protections (Which given the disaster regarding UK urban air quality is something of a big issue already) as they promised, but decrease them.

    Beyond that though, their wasn't really much in terms of what the government are planning to do- it really was a more 'lets all get behind brexit'- which is mildly insulting when putting this into the context of a government that refuses to be open to its own electorate, or indeed its own MP's on just what its doing, to then almost ask for us all to give them the benefit of the doubt and mindlessly support their endeavor with no information, is cutting things a bit fine.
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  11. #111

    Default Re: Brexit-time to scrap it and start again?

    Unlike Boris I don't see the single market or the customs union as "recondite concepts". They are very much real entities and real things will happen if we have a hard Brexit , like the imposition of tariffs, customs duties and the closer inspection of imported/exported goods. What planet is he on?
    Absolutley Barking, Mudpit Mutt Former Patron: Garbarsardar

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  12. #112
    NorseThing's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Brexit-time to scrap it and start again?

    I seem to have gotten the idea that Boris is more concerned about sabotaging the exit than he is about pushing forward towards the exit. The uncertainty is unfortunate for individuals and businesses and extending the pain instead of pushing forward is the typical politician reaction to any uncomfortable political actions. The equivalent to kicking the can down the road is not a sign of great leadership when faced with tough decisions that must be made.

  13. #113
    caratacus's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Brexit-time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dante Von Hespburg View Post
    Beyond that though, their wasn't really much in terms of what the government are planning to do- it really was a more 'lets all get behind brexit'- which is mildly insulting when putting this into the context of a government that refuses to be open to its own electorate, or indeed its own MP's on just what its doing, to then almost ask for us all to give them the benefit of the doubt and mindlessly support their endeavor with no information, is cutting things a bit fine.
    It is a complete farce, the Conservatives are misleading the British public about Brexit, even a fool would not see this. Again more empty rhetoric, more stories of faction fighting within the Party whilst the can is kicked even further down the road. More mysterious leaks from government offices about how Brexit would be detrimental to the economy. Remember that meeting that Theresa May was going to have 2 weeks ago, at which a clear objectives were to be made known to the press!!

    Quote Originally Posted by NorseThing View Post
    The equivalent to kicking the can down the road is not a sign of great leadership when faced with tough decisions that must be made.
    Kicking the can down the road, whilst actively undertaking a process of obfuscation is exactly what's going on here. Brexit wouldn't be alone however, it joins the crisis in Local Authority budgets, the NHS, housing, railways etc to receive so little in the way of an actual publicly known strategy. I really do think it needs to be an obligation for governments of any description to be as open and transparent as possible to the people who elect them.

  14. #114
    Muizer's Avatar member 3519
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    Default Re: Brexit-time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by NorseThing View Post
    I seem to have gotten the idea that Boris is more concerned about sabotaging the exit than he is about pushing forward towards the exit.
    Neither is really possible if there isn't a plan on how to go about it. There obviously never was, and still isn't.
    "Lay these words to heart, Lucilius, that you may scorn the pleasure which comes from the applause of the majority. Many men praise you; but have you any reason for being pleased with yourself, if you are a person whom the many can understand?" - Lucius Annaeus Seneca -

  15. #115

    Default Re: Brexit-time to scrap it and start again?

    And this presents a problem. Good policy making requires the following:

    Clear steer from Ministers and so forth as to the intentions of the Government, manefesto commitments and Parliamentary statements point the way.
    Trust in the independent evidence and advice provided by the Civil Service and other trusted stakeholders
    A clear framework around which policy is formulated developed and implemented.

    None of the above exists under the current regime.

    At the moment the entire Whitehall machine is bogged down supporting the various Tory factions on Brexit issues. There is no time either in Parliament or the wider Whitehall machine to deal with the urgent issues mentioned by caracatacus. As we have noted there is buggerall transparency about what little analysis has been made, any news about the impact of Brexit is kept from the public and attempts have been made to keep vital infromation from Parliament.
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  16. #116
    NorseThing's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Brexit-time to scrap it and start again?

    Well the EU is clearly preparing for the UK to be leaving. They are trying to figure out how to cut the farm subsidy nightmare.

    https://www.politico.eu/article/cent...ts-phil-hogan/

    Of course their proposed solution continues to protect the old and established members by writing rule that penalizes the Eastern portions of the EU -- mainly the Czech Republic. Capping the subsidies based on farm size does nothing to scale back the subsidies that matter the most to the budget. It also may be cutting back the subsidies that affect the most employees (not the owners).

  17. #117

    Default Re: Brexit-time to scrap it and start again?

    High time Brussels punished perfidious albion for interfering with Continental affairs

  18. #118

    Default Re: Brexit-time to scrap it and start again?

    Well Corbyn has jumped off the fence and has announced Labour's support for a Brexit tied to the EU Customs Union.This means that the amendment to Trade Bill calling for the government to pursue a customs union will now certainly pass, given the support of rebel remainer and soft Brexit Tories and the entire Labour Party. As George Osborne put it 'The Tories had offered Labour an “open goal” by making no customs union a red line and Corbyn had “just kicked the ball into the back of it”.'. Any sensible leader would work out there is a concensus to work around, but May will probably see this as an attack on her premiership and will therefore attempt to delay vote she will inevitably lose



    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/jeremy-corbyn-urges-mps-to-unite-behind-new-uk-customs-union-with-eu-a3775661.html
    Absolutley Barking, Mudpit Mutt Former Patron: Garbarsardar

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  19. #119
    Dante Von Hespburg's Avatar Sloth's Inferno
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    Default Re: Brexit-time to scrap it and start again?

    Off the back of Mongrels comment, as i think May's response has been influenced by Labours shift garnering business support...just wow. Another speech of bumpf as i think we all thought. What was interesting though is essentially it was less of a speech to the EU and us, and more a speech against her own party. It was May attempting to stamp ownership of her cabinet and party and tutting both extreme factions into line- there was a softened tone for Tory remainers who have said they were going to vote alongside Labour over the Customs union, and a threat to the hard brexiteers that 'low regulation' concepts of the UK would not be tolerated, nor would the government be essentially bullied by them into just walking away or taking an 'aggressive tone' with the EU.

    It is also essentially the end of any 'hard brexit' under May's premiership at least, the acknowledgement of continued contributions in certain areas for access, but keyley the fact that in essence the ECJ will maintain a role over certain areas and that Britain will make commitments to aspects of the EU- there is also an 'almost customers union' proposed over the N.Irish issue, while at the same time rejecting a customs union with the EU. Indeed interestingly the idea of going to WTO is now also off the table, as regulations and working rights as well as standards are now envisaged as being all pegged to the EU's essentially 'at minimum'- also the fact that WTO terms requires a hard border in northern Ireland...which is something the UK is unwilling (rightly so) to do. So there will be some sort of deal due to this. Oh and also finance above all will not be sacrificed- but other economic sectors may well be...but that passporting rights are not being sought, instead there needs to be a 'creative solution'- go figure what that might mean.

    The reason i'm calling this bumpf though is it was still very 'wish-list' and did not actually offer solutions- she rejected a customs union to solve the N.Irish border, but put forward 'technology' as a means to create a 'light border'- the issue being there isn't agreeance if such tech even exists and how it would exactly work yet. There was a lot of 'creative solutions needed'- but without any actual thought from the UK's end on what such a solution might be. This is why again the speech was less directed towards the EU and British public (Though there was an acknowledgement that now the country needs to be brought together with both sides of the argument being represented), and more towards inner-Tory politics- a 'Shut up and put up' towards the brexiteers- who she may have in fact angered by slipping in the phrase 'binding agreements' with the EU, that they told her to keep out, while at the same time speaking to potential Tory rebels as a 'please don't vote against me, here's some hope and stuff'.

    What does seem apparent is WTO and 'walking away' are off the table- A u-turn basically from previous speak, as well as a start warning to Moggs and Boris that any government who seeks to 'deregulate' will be punished at the 'ballot box by the British people, and rightly so'. Interesting stuff from an internal-angle then. Sod all in reality about actual brexit concepts or progress.

    EDIT: Incidentally to add another dimension and perhaps give May some credit- the playing down/almost rejection of a WTO, walk-away and a low-reg free trade outlook, is probably informed by the point she did mention that the world once again is sliding into trade protectionism- as if to emphasize that point, Trump has just slapped Tariffs on Steel and Aluminum of 25% and 10%- which will hit Canada and Brazil rather badly as they are the biggest exporters of steel to the US. In the current global conditions when the eras 'Great Powers' and blocs are engaged in moving away from open and free trade (China too recently has made a big noise about foreign investors and traders not being 'safe' from state control if deemed necessary) towards protectionism (rightly or wrongly- i'm not judging the move here), The Moggs and Boris vision is rather in tatters. The EU ironically is looking like a 'strong and stable' partner by comparison- depending upon how things are approached (I also still advocate looking at the Commonwealth- i know trade flows will not match those lost, but there is a window to at least 'get cosy' with the second biggest developing colony and attempt to match the Chinese influence in Africa for trade...though admittedly it may already be too late for the UK to get a decent piece of the pie).
    Last edited by Dante Von Hespburg; March 02, 2018 at 12:11 PM.
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  20. #120

    Default How 2 of 4 becomes 4 of 4 [why the EU can’t give in].

    How 2 of 4 becomes 4 of 4 [why the EU can’t give in].

    [thanks for your informative post on my other thread - I do read em :} eventually] here's more reasons...

    I wasn’t sure if mr Barnier wanted to laugh or cry, when basically telling us that a stop gap solution would be to annex N.Ireland and effectively hand it [then maybe Scotland later] over to the EU. obviously this is an impossible position and he is not dumb enough to believe we’d accept it, instead I feel he is basically saying that they have no choice but to push us into a hard brexit or keep us in the customs union. I mean the sort of hard brexit akin to running as fast as we can into a steel wall.
    Metaphor; if the world is a playground there are four guys who are the main powerhouses of that, 1 of 4 is the USA - because they are militarily the most powerful, then comes the EU because [currently] they are the richest, followed by China and then Russia. if Britain leaves, then the EU is no longer the richest and immediately drops to position 4 [or 3 at the very least], and all the people relying upon the west for their freedom will face a world where the east takes the rains of power and they will be done for. The EU cannot possibly allow this to happen and are left with two options; Britain stays in the customs union and not a lot actually changes, or, we leave and cannot be allowed to have the cake and eat it.

    We may have bargaining chips e.g. we buy a lot of cars from them, yet I wonder if the EU would be prepared to loose that rather than let the world and especially other EU nations, think they can do what they want and in the way they want it. Not to mention the said massive power loss. Thing is, they wont even have to do that as there is not enough time in the world to make deals of all the tens of thousands of businesses involved. We could be making deals in one area, meanwhile loosing a ton of trade to one side of that.

    I’m worried! Genuinely I can imagine Britain coming out of the EU and falling into chaos rather quickly. I hope that is not a ridiculous over estimation, but I don’t think it would take that much to break the already fragile economy. A trade war might not do us any good whatsoever as we don’t have all the connections we once did. Not to mention that places like China can very easily undercut us. This trade thing works both ways, we may have the world such that you can pay foreign workers less than it costs to feed a slave in England, but that also means that nations who’s money is worth much less [like up to 800% on cacao derivatives [if you believe BBC documentaries]], can massively undercut us on every front. The only thing we got is the deals we have.

    A look at history tells us that designations can change, and quickly.

    also. I don’t think its financially plausible that any benefit to any of us will be the outcome of a hard brexit [i'd spell that with an f and a u lol]]. I also cannot see how there are too many options here, a soft brexit will be viewed at least by the audiences of questiontime as a capitulation and weakness.
    I don’t get why people are even imagining some manner of return to colonial deals with the world. We might get new Zealand lamb and a few deals with Australia and the USA, possibly 1% of what we currently get from the EU [and already get from said parties].

    America as I see it is pretty much the big dog who’s got the bone, and we will be the little dog who’s looking at the dog with the bone. Since when have any dogs wanted to give up their bones?_

    Similar threads merged. ~Abdülmecid I
    Last edited by Abdülmecid I; March 02, 2018 at 12:41 PM. Reason: Clarification added.
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