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Thread: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

  1. #1001
    Muizer's Avatar member 3519
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    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-46936405

    International Trade Secretary Mr Fox told BBC One's Andrew Marr Show: "Parliament has not got the right to hijack the Brexit process because Parliament has said to the people of this country: 'We make a contract with you, you will make the decision and we will honour it.'
    Is he basically saying Parliament should have voted for whatever the Executive made of Brexit? As if the government has more legitimacy than parliament to decide what Brexit actually means? I mean if he's talking about parliament just cancelling Brexit, sure, but I find the idea that a government would berate a parliament for getting involved in law-making pretty deranged.
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  2. #1002

    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by Muizer View Post
    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-46936405



    Is he basically saying Parliament should have voted for whatever the Executive made of Brexit? As if the government has more legitimacy than parliament to decide what Brexit actually means? I mean if he's talking about parliament just cancelling Brexit, sure, but I find the idea that a government would berate a parliament for getting involved in law-making pretty deranged.
    I agree. It would have made more sense if Fox said 'Wa-wa-way-do, wub-wid-bid-dum-way-do, wa-wa-way-do'

    The handling of the meaningful vote in particular, was shameful.
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  3. #1003
    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?
    In my opinion, the answer is yes,

    1 -Considering the fact that mistakes made in the referendum debate should never be repeated, It's Good to Talk: Doing Referendums differently after the EU Vote
    2 -Considering that fact the the Brexit campaign was misleading, dominated by false statements, and left too many ill informed.
    56 percent of Brits say they would choose to remain in EU. YouGov survey
    ---
    The UK is divided. Listen to them singing!
    "Should I stay or should I go?"

    The time has come to say to our British friends and allies,
    "this indecision's bugging me
    If you don't want me, set me free"
    -----
    Wake up UK, the single market has to be protected and it can't allow goods to get into the Republic of Ireland via a Britain/Northern Ireland route. The UK citizens are now realizing that the UK is not a nation-state.
    On a side note, contrary to popular belief, Corbyn isn't against a a second referendum.
    Jeremy Corbyn sets out conditions for second EU referendum support
    If the UK was facing the "potential disaster" of a "no-deal" Brexit then Labour would look at the option of a second referendum, Mr Corbyn said during a speech in Hastings on Thursday
    There will be no deal, obviously. UK can't expect to be inside and outside at the same time. And a soft Brexit is a bad idea, UK would not be happy in a model such as Norway.

    Edit- I forgot to add, Scotland wants to avoid Brexit but doesn′t know how
    Brexit remains unpopular with most Scottish voters
    I'm not surprised that, Scotland will consider independence vote after ... - POLITICO Europe
    Nicola Sturgeon will consider another vote on Scottish independence when Westminster offers greater certainty on Brexit, she said Sunday.In the Brexit referendum, Scotland voted in favor of the U.K staying in the EU by 62 percent to 38 percent.Sturgeon had said after that vote that Scotland had delivered a “strong, unequivocal vote” to remain in the EU.
    Last edited by Ludicus; January 20, 2019 at 05:19 PM.
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    Aexodus's Avatar Persuasion>Coercion
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    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Corbyn’s a leaver
    Patronised by Pontifex Maximus
    Quote Originally Posted by Himster View Post
    The trick is to never be honest. That's what this social phenomenon is engineering: publicly conform, or else.

  5. #1005

    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Didn't the folks in Britain already vote in favor of Brexit in a plebiscite?

  6. #1006

    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pontifex Maximus View Post
    Didn't the folks in Britain already vote in favor of Brexit in a plebiscite?
    I suggest you read the posts. There are several reasons why Brexit is failing, main ones being incompetence and intransigence.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aexodus View Post
    Corbyn’s a leaver
    True, but for one purpose, to bring Britain back to where it was in the 60s, nationalisation and strong union/workers rights. He won't support a version without the preservation of existing workers rights.
    Last edited by mongrel; January 20, 2019 at 10:19 PM.
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  7. #1007

    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    In my opinion, the answer is yes,

    1 -Considering the fact that mistakes made in the referendum debate should never be repeated, It's Good to Talk: Doing Referendums differently after the EU Vote
    2 -Considering that fact the the Brexit campaign was misleading, dominated by false statements, and left too many ill informed.
    56 percent of Brits say they would choose to remain in EU. YouGov survey
    ---
    The UK is divided. Listen to them singing!
    "Should I stay or should I go?"

    The time has come to say to our British friends and allies,
    "this indecision's bugging me
    If you don't want me, set me free"
    -----
    Wake up UK, the single market has to be protected and it can't allow goods to get into the Republic of Ireland via a Britain/Northern Ireland route. The UK citizens are now realizing that the UK is not a nation-state.
    On a side note, contrary to popular belief, Corbyn isn't against a a second referendum.
    Jeremy Corbyn sets out conditions for second EU referendum support

    There will be no deal, obviously. UK can't expect to be inside and outside at the same time. And a soft Brexit is a bad idea, UK would not be happy in a model such as Norway.

    Edit- I forgot to add, Scotland wants to avoid Brexit but doesn′t know how


    I'm not surprised that, Scotland will consider independence vote after ... - POLITICO Europe
    Varoufakis syndrome.

    This is why the left is failing everywhere. Yeah ok the neoliberals are bad but we must, absolutely, avoid dismantling their system. We'll just wait for Godot the day there's a global plebiscite in favour of leftwing parties and then everything will be great. For now however, let the masses suffer and the neoliberals rule.


    edit:
    https://www.spiked-online.com/2019/0...no-deal-myths/
    Time to bust the No Deal myths

    Last edited by Basil II the B.S; January 21, 2019 at 05:02 AM.

  8. #1008

    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Suicide Brexiteers should stop talking about tariffs all the time, that's not it. I don't believe the Spiked cult's ridiculous lines of reasoning now any more than I did when they were the Revolutionary Communist Party.
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  9. #1009
    Paggers's Avatar Me.
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    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    In my opinion, the answer is yes,
    Don't often agree with your political opinions but I do with this one
    1 -Considering the fact that mistakes made in the referendum debate should never be repeated, It's Good to Talk: Doing Referendums differently after the EU Vote2 -Considering that fact the the Brexit campaign was misleading, dominated by false statements, and left too many ill informed. 56 percent of Brits say they would choose to remain in EU. YouGov survey ---
    Both sides were as bad as each other. Still waiting for emergency budget promised for Friday 24 June 2016. Glad I didn't hold my breath.
    The UK is divided. Listen to them singing! "Should I stay or should I go?"The time has come to say to our British friends and allies, "this indecision's bugging me If you don't want me, set me free"-----
    Ah The Clash. Takes me back to the good old days of musicians playing their instruments, albeit quite badly.
    Wake up UK, the single market has to be protected
    Absolutely. Mrs T's legacy must be protected at all costs. Even by the Left. Lol.
    The UK citizens are now realizing that the UK is not a nation-state.
    Never has been. Originally 2, then 3 and now 4 nation states. Keep up.
    On a side note, contrary to popular belief, Corbyn isn't against a a second referendum.Jeremy Corbyn sets out conditions for second EU referendum support
    Both Corbyn and McDonnell are in favour of leaving. It appears that both currently see political advantage in dangling this particular carrot. I dislike both of them but I admire their political instincts on this particular issue. After all, the prize in politics is occupying Number 10, by any means necessary.
    There will be no deal, obviously. UK can't expect to be inside and outside at the same time. And a soft Brexit is a bad idea, UK would not be happy in a model such as Norway.
    I agree.Sorry to be so brutal on this one, but it's a crock. All the cult of Sturgeon wants is decisions not to be made by Westminster. For what the SNP campaigned in both recent referenda should make this blindingly obvious. Stay in EU and leave UK. Come on, take off the blinkers. I know you're better than that. After Brexit this won't even be possible. They'll have to apply to join.On a side note, I read in Saturday's times (Matthew Parris' column) that I'm a liberal conservative. Who knew.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mongrel View Post
    What PC culture exists in West Yorkshire, for pity's sake? Its the least PC place in the UK, if not the planet.

  10. #1010
    caratacus's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Remainer MPs busying themselves with amendments, who still cling to the hope that the EU is anything but a Franco-German axis, should I think look closely at the new treaty signed between these countries, and ask theselves whether this is really a community of nations or a parade led by two and whether the UK sits well amongst them.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Macron's EU vision will bolster Franco-German axis: Merkel
    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-e...-idUSKCN1C317N
    September 28, 2017
    TALLINN (Reuters) - German Chancellor Angela Merkel praised French President Emmanuel Macron’s ambitions for the European Union on Thursday and said his ideas could be the foundation for “intense” Franco-German cooperation on the future of Europe.

    On Tuesday, Macron outlined bold proposals for a European renewal, calling for the European Union to work more closely on defense and migration and for a euro zone budget. He urged his peers to put European vision above national interests, saying in his address that he had “no red lines, only horizons”.

    A French presidential source said France was not trying to impose its ideas on its partners but to show them that they were in their common interest and recognized that some needed time to reflect.

    “The idea is not about forcing people to give a binary response. France cannot force things,” the source said, adding that Paris hoped leaders could agree on a way to work on the ideas in the coming weeks before an October summit in Brussels.

    “Macron has stolen the show,” one senior EU official said of the dinner debate.
    Many admire the youthful new French president’s energy and oratory after years in which Paris, long a driving force of the European Union, has appeared bereft of self-confidence.
    Merkel told reporters before a meeting with Macron that his ideas could be the basis for “intense” Franco-German cooperation.

    Eastern European leaders are cautious about the risk of new cleavages on the continent leaving them behind, while there are plenty, like Dutch Prime Minister Mark Rutte, a moving spirit behind the Tallinn dinner, who are skeptical about more financial burden-sharing before southern neighbors — including France — put their own national budgets on a sounder footing.


    So since the Tallinn summit, and today questions about Brexit abound, looks like the greater plan moves forwards!
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    France and Germany to seal new deal as Brexit looms
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-46908205
    France and Germany are to sign a new treaty on Tuesday aimed at breathing new life into their place at the centre of the European Union.

    In the draft, France and Germany agree to establish common positions and issue joint statements on major EU issues - formalising their existing co-operation. They also plan to act as a joint force at the United Nations.

    From foreign policy to internal and external security, the two nations commit to coming up with common positions while seeking to bolster "Europe's capacity to act autonomously".

    The two countries commit to:
    Deepening economic integration with a Franco-German "economic zone"
    Developing Europe's military capabilities, investing together to "fill gaps in capacity, thereby reinforcing" the EU and Nato
    Fostering in both armed forces a "common culture" and joint deployments as well as a Franco-German defence and security council

  11. #1011
    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    The question is, does Scotland still want to be part of a UK that's leaving the EU? which of these two unions is more important for Scotland?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paggers View Post
    They'll have to apply to join.
    Certainly.
    Let's keep in mind that in 2014 the EU was also used as a blackmailing tool to ensure that Scotland would remain part of the UK.
    And, if I remember well,Cameron warned that "this great exporting nation" (Scotland) is better off inside the EU" (sic)
    Scotland is stuck between referendums.

    Quote Originally Posted by Paggers View Post
    Both Corbyn...are in favour of leaving
    I don't think so. Corbyn said,
    In the referendum, I wanted to remain and reform the EU, but 40 percent of Labour voters voted to leave
    Labour is merely seeking a general election, and it will suffer badly if it facilitates the Brexit, a failed project.
    Last edited by Ludicus; January 21, 2019 at 08:57 AM.
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  12. #1012
    Paggers's Avatar Me.
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    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    The question is, does Scotland still want to be part of a UK that's leaving the EU? which of these two unions is more important for Scotland?
    Sure it is, but It's not currently possible to answer this question. As above, if Scotland leaves the UK then it leaves the EU at the same time if Brexit has happened, and isn't in if it has happened. Applying to join will take a long time and the Scots have shown in both referenda that they don't want change. Probably best to end here as go round in circles and off-topic.
    Certainly.Let's keep in mind that in 2014 the EU was also used as a blackmailing tool to ensure that Scotland would remain part of the UK.And, if I remember well,Cameron warned that "this great exporting nation" (Scotland) is better off inside the EU" (sic)Scotland is stuck between referendums.
    As above really.
    I don't think so. Corbyn said,"In the referendum, I wanted to remain and reform the EU, but 40 percent of Labour voters voted to leave
    Thank you. I stand, or more accurately sit, corrected. Sounds suspiciously like Mr Cameron's position.
    Labour is merely seeking a general election, and it will suffer badly if it facilitates the Brexit, a failed project.
    I agree wholeheartedly on this with one proviso. Brexit is a failed project in how it has been progressed by Mrs May.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mongrel View Post
    What PC culture exists in West Yorkshire, for pity's sake? Its the least PC place in the UK, if not the planet.

  13. #1013
    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by caratacus View Post
    EU is anything but a Franco-German axis
    Just a few years ago, I was eurosceptic. There is a reason why I am not anymore: Trump, Orbin, the rise of the autocracies in eastern Europe.
    Even with all its flaws, the EU is a project of peace. It started from the ashes of the WW2, to prevent new wars, among and against Europeans.
    The Brexit will turn the UK into a satellite state of the US. Literally.

    UK may never recover £1.2bn invested in EU Galileo satellite system
    London turns to America after EU excludes Britain from Galileo

    Quote Originally Posted by Basil II the B.S View Post
    the neoliberals are bad but we must, absolutely, avoid dismantling their system
    I am aware that efforts to reform the European Union are easier said than done. Even the world's best democracy isn't perfect.
    Quote Originally Posted by Basil II the B.S View Post
    let the masses suffer and the neoliberals rule
    Ah, the "masses". Is there any difference between a fascistoid autocratic state and a communist state? really?
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  14. #1014
    Daruwind's Avatar Citizen
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    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    So according to current live stream, May´s rejected possible second referendum and article 50 extension (so cancelling probably too ) and she will try to negotiate with other parties about Irish backstop. (or safeguard? no sure atm what is the right english term)

    So to me it looks like she is rising stakes and bluffing more. Either her deal or no deal at all. Plus no "plan B" to be revealed today..
    Last edited by Daruwind; January 21, 2019 at 11:27 AM.
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  15. #1015
    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by Daruwind View Post
    Plus no "plan B" to be revealed today..
    Indeed.There is no plan B...
    Brexit is bad for all Europeans.UK belongs to Europe. A new life for an "evil " UK/French /German/ axis is a splendid idea.
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    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
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    Aexodus's Avatar Persuasion>Coercion
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    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    UK belongs to Europe.
    Eh.

    I’m really not so sure that it belongs to anyone else to be honest.

    Edit: this I thought was interesting. 9% of leavers would mind if a relative married a strong remainer, while 37% of remainers wouod mind if a close relative married a strong leaver. Reminds me of the tests showing up similar results between liberals/conservatives and progressives/socialists.

    https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.ne...ndFamily_w.pdf
    Last edited by Aexodus; January 21, 2019 at 01:13 PM.
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  17. #1017

    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    Indeed.There is no plan B...
    Indeed. Frustrating that she is behaving in this way. Ireland and the EU have already said there is no point coming back on the backstop. Even stalkers get the point at some stage. Makes it inevitiable that Paliament will attempt to seize control of the process.

    Do you know what sucks about this, that pig er Cameron never intended to have a referendum at all if this story is to be beleived. Brexit was an accident.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...referendum-bbc
    Last edited by mongrel; January 21, 2019 at 03:45 PM.
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  18. #1018
    Dante Von Hespburg's Avatar Sloth's Inferno
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    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Its really interesting. Did anyone else see Reese-Moggs this morning?

    The PM met a group of Brexiteer former ministers on Thursday. Attendee John Whittingdale said it had been a “constructive meeting” and he was convinced an agreement that satisfies a majority of Tories and DUP remained possible.
    Meanwhile, Jacob Rees-Mogg, chairman of the European Research Group of Brexiteer MPs, has signalled that he may ultimately choose to support Mrs May’s deal.
    Writing in the Mail on Sunday, the leading Eurosceptic said that, in a choice between the Withdrawal Agreement and no Brexit, he would back her deal.
    https://www.shropshirestar.com/news/...-plans-to-mps/

    And same story in the national press for those who shun local papers (Its a thing)

    https://www.ft.com/content/ad683ef0-...7-97e4dbd3580d

    It looks like May- who is essentially re-presenting the same deal that was voted down earlier, may actually get it passed with the help of the hard-brexiteers who are willing to sacrifice their position to back hers. It'll be interesting and even i would have to give her applause for a solid political play in making the very group who tried to topple you a few weeks earlier your cheerleaders. This comes both from i think May's drumming up of 'remaining' being the key default position now, and the moves of soft-brexiteers with various amendments making a softer brexit/remain more likely in the coming days.

    So in that context the ERG and Reese-Moggs will become May's supporters. Well played to her.

    The question is what will with this in mind, the 'softies'/Remainers do, both in the Conservative Party, or Opposition. If they get through the amendments they want- the ERG's position becomes essentially what it always has been- they lack arithmetic to have 'real' influence, and so May's deal will be their best hope by comparison for a 'brexit' of some sort. The alternative is they could bring down their own government, but thus far have been unwilling to engage in that.

    Seems like though it'll be a choice between May's deal, or some softer option- i suspect May has a fair chance of winning it through when it comes back to the vote, against all odds. It depends if the other Conservatives are equally as 'flexible' as the ERG- and also put party before brexit.

    EDIT:

    Ok so to expand this analysis to the broader picture- i want to be clear- this makes May's deal a possibility- but not 'likely'- its better than before though. Essentially the ERG has given ground, now for whatever reason- party over country, or they see it as the only way to get a 'brexit' and not remain- its a political boon to May.

    It however might also be a curse for her. Its shown that the political ground has shifted. For the first time an organized faction has said it would sacrifice its own goals for the PM's deal. The key part here is that arguably already, but for sure in a few days 'no deal' is no longer an 'easy' 'go to' option for the government. While this has forced the ERG to broaden their scope for 'brexit' and consider backing May. It also may have the opposite effect on her centrists/remainers and galvanize them into going for an even softer brexit (or none at all in various forms). The spectrum shrinking so that May and the ERG are amalgamated under 'her deal' and broadening on the remain side (it also means the 'remain/soft' side will now suffer from a fair bit of factionalism as the focus shifts to them and the unifying threat of a no-deal recedes- this is good scope for May potentially). However, look at the numbers she needs, just the ERG and the DUP (If they come back to her fold) will not be enough She'll need the Tories as a whole- this is where Sousberry and Clarke (Spelling ) and their group of hardcore remainers come into play- what they do could decide everything. They are just as ideological and fanatical as the hard-brexiteer faction- will they choose to bring down their own government? Who knows? They could though.

    So some very interesting moves will be ahead, with ironically despite May plugging essentially the same damn deal everyone hated- the spectrum has shifted and she may have gained some new allies, though not enough yet.
    Last edited by Dante Von Hespburg; January 21, 2019 at 04:24 PM.
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  19. #1019
    Daruwind's Avatar Citizen
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    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Mostly offtopic
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    mongrel You remind me of one czech satiric online show - "Lucky Monday" - it is basically about last week news in czech. Usually about our politics, main city, prezident.. Funny thing. Today big part was about Brexit. "yes about brexit the most crazy UK show from Monthy Python time, they probably participated on the script even this time, only nobody told them it will be real show"..."Brexit is very educating and we fully respect british democratic right to jump out of window into darkness, then climb back and jump once more perhaps. That is democracy...Our only though is, how would such action ends in Czech" ..."May, probably the most laughable politician of today is still PM, basically some kind of joke like Arsenal in Football, long time ago maybe they won something but that is long forgotten, so everybody is just telling here Liverpool 1:5, Southampton 2:3, Totenham 0:2,...vote in parliament 202:232.".."Ok, May wanted the job so we don´t have to pity her but"...


    It´s mostly about this old photo from 2012 when Cameron and our old czech PM Necas were travelling to Brusel from London so they could have EU for breakfast and show them how could two real conservative PMs work together..And it is about their probably fictional chatting during travel:

    Necasavid, what are you planning to win next election?
    David: I got this crazy idea. That I may promise referendum before next election and I will be against leaving EU.
    Necas: That´s wonderful idiocy. What if it ends badly?
    David: That cannot end badly. Britons are complain about EU but they are not dumb to actually leave it. It is almost impossible. But I won´t tell them that. I will surely win. And if not,I have to resign anyway. So somebody else will clear the mess. And what do you plan to do with your country Peter? I really appreciate you fight with corruption. From our experience it is the most important that the police won´t stop in front of the most powerful people.
    Necas: haha no problem. In czech police can now investigate even in goverment office.
    DAvid: haha that´s stupidity. How can police come to goverment office,that´s like police coming down to Downing street 10.
    Necas: Sure thing, that cannot happen. I have everything under control. I discuss everything only with my boss of cabinet (she was his lover). Nobody will ever dare to arrest my boss of cabinet of prime minister....

    and everybody was laughing because everybody believes that those two know what they are doing....
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_C...uption_scandal
    Except our czech goverment ended pretty soon by police investigation....


    Czech video so probably zero fun for you guys
    https://www.seznamzpravy.cz/clanek/p...ome&autoplay=1

    This is just illustration what popcorn fun we have in middle of EU with your whole brexit. :-)
    Last edited by Daruwind; January 21, 2019 at 04:34 PM.
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  20. #1020
    Muizer's Avatar member 3519
    Patrician Artifex Magistrate

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    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Commentators here say May is primarily concerned with preventing a schism in her party. That is of course way more important than actually making progress on a deal....
    "Lay these words to heart, Lucilius, that you may scorn the pleasure which comes from the applause of the majority. Many men praise you; but have you any reason for being pleased with yourself, if you are a person whom the many can understand?" - Lucius Annaeus Seneca -

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