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Thread: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

  1. #61
    NorseThing's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Brexit-time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by Copperknickers II View Post
    May just lost a crucial vote on the Brexit Bill in parliament. She's in a whole heap of trouble now. Doesn't necessarily mean Brexit won't go ahead but makes it a whole lot easier for parliament to sabotage things. I think hard Brexit is pretty much off the table now, the final bill will need to be scrutinised and agreed on by the whole government including rebels and the anti-hard brexit camp can hold the hard brexiteers to ransom.
    I assume you are referring to this vote as reported in CNN (I know there are other sources)http://www.cnn.com/2017/12/13/europe...ote/index.html

    I have and will continue to say that a clean break and then picking up the pieces would have been easier. I am a bit confused how demanding the parliament have a final say would be a problem though. This is a treaty. I know in the USA the US Senate has something to say about treaties and I would hope the same would be true for the legislative bodies in all countries.
    Last edited by NorseThing; December 13, 2017 at 02:35 PM.

  2. #62
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    Default Re: Brexit-time to scrap it and start again?

    british legislative bodies can do whatever, they could even still cancel the whole nonsense. but the people who still hold the majorities (yet) have neither the balls nor the inclination.

    once the tories go down, as they will, they will have collectively pulled a farage (only not as voluntarily) and leave the whole mess to those who come after.

  3. #63
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    Default Re: Brexit-time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by Copperknickers II View Post
    May just lost a crucial vote on the Brexit Bill in parliament. She's in a whole heap of trouble now. Doesn't necessarily mean Brexit won't go ahead but makes it a whole lot easier for parliament to sabotage things. I think hard Brexit is pretty much off the table now, the final bill will need to be scrutinised and agreed on by the whole government including rebels and the anti-hard brexit camp can hold the hard brexiteers to ransom.
    Does nothing of the sort, we leave the EU deal or no deal. In fact tonight probably made the prospect of the latter a great deal more likely.

    However, the defeat of the Government in Parliament, was of benefit to the people not either Hard Brexiteers or Pro-Remainers. It is right that Parliament have a voice in any agreement, that is one of the principle reasons we are leaving the EU, because it doesn't allow for this type of public scrutiny and accountability. If MP's decide to thwart the process and abuse their right of influence, then they shall face the consequence during the next election.

    What I was totally against is the behavior of this Conservative administration in handling the whole process of Brexit and the secrecy that negotiations have been carried out with Brussels, it is unfitting of good government. Quite plainly a deal was struck last week the precise details of which the British people still remain in the dark about but which the EU want to make legally binding, and that is plainly unacceptable.
    Last edited by caratacus; December 13, 2017 at 03:49 PM.

  4. #64
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    Default Re: Brexit-time to scrap it and start again?

    I think the real issue with last nights vote (which as others have said is important as it provides some semblance of democratic process regarding brexit- though there is actually a long way to go before the Governments brexit is 'democratic'- they are still trying to roll out the Henry VIII powers without proper safeguards- the concession for a scrutiny committee has no teeth as it would be advisory only and can be ignored, still obstructing on impact assessments etc- but its an important step.) is though that it exposes the idiocy of making brexit party-political... we have this morning the Conservative party in very real trouble of a meltdown as brexiteers round on their fellows flinging around 'traitor' and 'will of the people' and calling for their deselection... which is dumb as the government doesn't have a majority so every MP counts. The Government have implied at a later day their going to try and overturn this, though now they are not sure of winning next weeks vote which is putting the exit date into law (Again rather dumb from a national perspective as anything can happen in negotiations- but the party-political rears its head as if Corbyn gets in next year, it would leave Labour to take the blame for the Tories mess with no chance of moving around it, so the Conservative cock ups so far will in their view be evened out by an arbitrary timeline that sabotages any incoming government).

    But yeah, i don't know when the penny is going to drop that one parties vision of brexit and post-brexit (This goes for all sides of the House) has no mandate given both the brexit vote was across-party and the general election gave no one an electoral mandate- their needs to be consensus, compromise and a national vision (Not using brexit as a way of implementing a hard-on for full Singapore deregulation or full socialism that they know will never be approved by the electorate if it was a manifesto promise).
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  5. #65
    caratacus's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Brexit-time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dante Von Hespburg View Post
    I think the real issue with last nights vote (which as others have said is important as it provides some semblance of democratic process regarding brexit- though there is actually a long way to go before the Governments brexit is 'democratic'- they are still trying to roll out the Henry VIII powers without proper safeguards- the concession for a scrutiny committee has no teeth as it would be advisory only and can be ignored, still obstructing on impact assessments etc- but its an important step.) is though that it exposes the idiocy of making brexit party-political... we have this morning the Conservative party in very real trouble of a meltdown as brexiteers round on their fellows flinging around 'traitor' and 'will of the people' and calling for their deselection... which is dumb as the government doesn't have a majority so every MP counts. The Government have implied at a later day their going to try and overturn this, though now they are not sure of winning next weeks vote which is putting the exit date into law (Again rather dumb from a national perspective as anything can happen in negotiations- but the party-political rears its head as if Corbyn gets in next year, it would leave Labour to take the blame for the Tories mess with no chance of moving around it, so the Conservative cock ups so far will in their view be evened out by an arbitrary timeline that sabotages any incoming government).
    It seems that from now on "Appeaser May" is going to find it difficult getting any deal through Parliament no matter how soft, given the intention of many sitting on the opposition benches to thwart the whole process. The stigmatization of a number of Conservative MPs yesterday, the cooperation of which she depends on, seems extremely counter productive. The life span of the current government and especially her tenure at no 10 has been shortened considerably by it.

    Headlines by the Mail like this are very unhelpful for a paper that wants to keep Jeremy Corbyn from being PM.


    But yeah, i don't know when the penny is going to drop that one parties vision of brexit and post-brexit (This goes for all sides of the House) has no mandate given both the brexit vote was across-party and the general election gave no one an electoral mandate- their needs to be consensus, compromise and a national vision (Not using brexit as a way of implementing a hard-on for full Singapore deregulation or full socialism that they know will never be approved by the electorate if it was a manifesto promise).
    The negotiations with the EU currently taking place are being done so to obtain a mutually agreed departure from the EU and establish a new relationship. BUT they are not necessary to leave the EU. In the referendum there were two questions do you wish to remain or leave the European Union, not what negotiated settlement would you want.

    For this reason, it is important that the government in charge of negotiating any such settlement, be as open and honest as possible with the British public, which so far they have not.
    Speaker criticises David Davis over release of Brexit papers
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42350892
    Mr Davis released an 850-page dossier of information outlining the economic impact of Brexit on 58 different sectors of the economy to MPs - but not the public - after a binding vote in the Commons last month.

  6. #66
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    Default Re: Brexit-time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by caratacus View Post
    It seems that from now on "Appeaser May" is going to find it difficult getting any deal through Parliament no matter how soft, given the intention of many sitting on the opposition benches to thwart the whole process. The stigmatization of a number of Conservative MPs yesterday, the cooperation of which she depends on, seems extremely counter productive. The life span of the current government and especially her tenure at no 10 has been shortened considerably by it.

    Headlines by the Mail like this are very unhelpful for a paper that wants to keep Jeremy Corbyn from being PM.

    I find the Daily Mail and other media rhetoric about this and previous cases rather... silly honestly. As you point out its counterproductive to any actual aim of keeping those they support in power. I think though its basically that print media, particularly the Mail, Sun, Mirror et al are seeing their influence decline on the left and right quite significantly- the last GE rather showed how important Social Media has become to politics. Again like or hate, Labour's use of social media platforms to circumvent what i think we all agree was a rather hostile press- even from the Mirror and Guardian to him, exposed just how much their influence has declined on the electorate- so it seems their getting brasher and louder to try and stem the loss of importance perhaps.

    Or they could just be dumb papers .

    But as to the Government, i genuinely do not believe how much they mishandled it. All it would have technically taken was compromise earlier on- accept this had to happen and their would not have been this rebellion and loss. Its like May and co forgot about their own parliamentary weakness in not having their own majority (Perhaps like earlier forgetting the DUP?)- they really did mess up.

    The negotiations with the EU currently taking place are being done so to obtain a mutually agreed departure from the EU and establish a new relationship. BUT they are not necessary to leave the EU. In the referendum there were two questions do you wish to remain or leave the European Union, not what negotiated settlement would you want.

    For this reason, it is important that the government in charge of negotiating any such settlement, be as open and honest as possible with the British public, which so far they have not.
    Indeed, though i probably am not explaining myself properly- I'm not merely talking about the negotiations, but the structures of the UK that emerges- the issue with the Henry VIII powers is that currently their not just limited to brexit, and apply to changing all sorts of primary (Which usually require Parliamentary approval and a vote) and not merely secondary laws, through using secondary legislation to do so- without any sort of scrutiny from anyone- and that's immediately a long-term structural change. So doing things like radically altering working rights, environmental protections taxes et al at the same time as brexit is happening and that all coming into force regardless of the type of negotiated deal we get (be it hard or soft) is a huge concern- particularly when their are large lobbies of influential MP's who are aiming to do exactly this. Brexit is being used potentially as a piggyback to changing how the UK essentially 'works' without any kind of public or parliamentary say- merely various small factions trying to push forward their 'dream UK utopia'. Its why the Singapore crash-out is not merely a negotiating position/potential consequence- but actually is one being pushed by Moggs and co under brexit, but as a seperate domestic front on the back of brexit-devised legislation.

    This is why i'm worried, as of course no doubt if Labour were in alone, they would be talking about a Nordic model with larger socialist elements or some such, and using brexit 'powers' to deliver that without needing to worry about electoral consequences or parliamentary scrutiny. In broader terms i tend to agree with Nye and Wolfgangs current assessments that we're led on all sides for the first time in quite a while by ideologues as opposed to political pragmatists- which is both good and bad, but the trouble is that these ideologically led policy groups will want to radically alter the country from an economic and cultural perspective and are willing to use whatever means they have at their disposal- The 'Legatus' group (Far-right free market, deregualtion libertarianist) has been a key lobby for Conservative policy of late. So brexit in a way here is only half the picture, and half the danger- but is entirely the 'means' (in the government as you rightly say being so secretive) for bringing about these wished for changes by lobbies.

    To give a more concise (I hope) example- May...sort of got in at the last GE on a platform of increased regulation, tackling wealth inequality and helping the 'JAMS'- now reality of course as the social mobility commitee disaster shows- none of this is happening. But a Moggs fronted faction of the Tories who are influenced by lobbies like Legatus are using brexit, the negotiations but more importantly the legislative powers the government is trying to take to keep the public and parliament in the dark about as tools to create their own vision which is the complete opposite of this- they do not have any kind of legitimate mandate to do so, but brexit provides the tools to circumvent that potentially- this is why i think its important that Parliament and public are indeed informed, but also are given greater say to counteract such powerful interests(made so by backing, but also how weak May is politically in regard to brexit) by removing the fact that in essence May is a punch-bag- which protects in many ways these groups from any electoral consequences and also emboldens them in exerting influence, by drawing all such decisions on working rights and economic structures (which are not negotiation related, but for some reason the government think should be able to be changed by ministers through secondary legislation- with no limits on their remit, and little to no actual scrutiny) etc into a public frame.

    If that makes sense, i might not be honestly Its been a long day and Panto season is downright exhausting.
    Last edited by Dante Von Hespburg; December 14, 2017 at 10:26 AM.
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  7. #67
    caratacus's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Brexit-time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dante Von Hespburg View Post
    I find the Daily Mail and other media rhetoric about this and previous cases rather... silly honestly. As you point out its counterproductive to any actual aim of keeping those they support in power. I think though its basically that print media, particularly the Mail, Sun, Mirror et al are seeing their influence decline on the left and right quite significantly- the last GE rather showed how important Social Media has become to politics. Again like or hate, Labour's use of social media platforms to circumvent what i think we all agree was a rather hostile press- even from the Mirror and Guardian to him, exposed just how much their influence has declined on the electorate- so it seems their getting brasher and louder to try and stem the loss of importance perhaps. Or they could just be dumb papers .
    The newspapers have a problem with declining circulation and are desperate to remain relevant to their readers. But lets not forget that all are pushing a political agenda of their owners and I have no doubt that was the reason the Mail undertook such a provocative headline which is bound to stir up animosity. Quite why a Conservative leaning party would want to demonise 11 Conservative MPs rather than the opposition parties who were responsible for mounting a covert campaign to delay and thwart Brexit, I leave up to you to decide. For me, it is a clear case of attempting to cover the duplicity in the present government with Brussels in agreeing a direction in negotiating Brexit which the majority that voted for it, would not agree with.

    Social media is indeed becoming a lot more popular in disseminating news than it was an Labour have been more successful in this than the Conservatives. But viewing a Youtube channel on politics yesterday, which attempts to place some light on many of the underlying motivations behind the political process. I can't but help thinking that these channels simply enforce our own cynical opinions rather than influence those with only a casual interest in politics. In that, a headline slotted in the Sun newspaper between the winner of Bog Brother and Prince Harry's relationships, is probably still more likely to shape opinions.


    But as to the Government, i genuinely do not believe how much they mishandled it. All it would have technically taken was compromise earlier on- accept this had to happen and their would not have been this rebellion and loss. Its like May and co forgot about their own parliamentary weakness in not having their own majority (Perhaps like earlier forgetting the DUP?)- they really did mess up.
    The Government have truly messed up in these negotiations big time! But I can't help thinking that "Appeaser" May breathed a sigh of relief when the vote was declared in favour of giving Parliament a greater influence in the negotiating process. She knows the agreement she is wanting, is not what the British people want and this easily passes on the blame to those in Parliament who have already demonstrated their intention to make a Brexit softer than a downy pillow laid across Jean-Claude Juncker's chest. In old squawky's words today in Brussels - "For the next stage we will be focusing on the transition agreement. My top priority is Britain's deep and special relationship with the EU"!? Seemingly no mention of trade deal then. How can you value a transition agreement without a done deal on the end state, especially relating to trade. I wonder that, and so do over 60 million Brits!

    Indeed, though i probably am not explaining myself properly- I'm not merely talking about the negotiations, but the structures of the UK that emerges- the issue with the Henry VIII powers is that currently their not just limited to brexit, and apply to changing all sorts of primary (Which usually require Parliamentary approval and a vote) and not merely secondary laws, through using secondary legislation to do so- without any sort of scrutiny from anyone- and that's immediately a long-term structural change. So doing things like radically altering working rights, environmental protections taxes et al at the same time as brexit is happening and that all coming into force regardless of the type of negotiated deal we get (be it hard or soft) is a huge concern- particularly when their are large lobbies of influential MP's who are aiming to do exactly this. Brexit is being used potentially as a piggyback to changing how the UK essentially 'works' without any kind of public or parliamentary say- merely various small factions trying to push forward their 'dream UK utopia'. Its why the Singapore crash-out is not merely a negotiating position/potential consequence- but actually is one being pushed by Moggs and co under brexit, but as a seperate domestic front on the back of brexit-devised legislation.

    This is why i'm worried, as of course no doubt if Labour were in alone, they would be talking about a Nordic model with larger socialist elements or some such, and using brexit 'powers' to deliver that without needing to worry about electoral consequences or parliamentary scrutiny. In broader terms i tend to agree with Nye and Wolfgangs current assessments that we're led on all sides for the first time in quite a while by ideologues as opposed to political pragmatists- which is both good and bad, but the trouble is that these ideologically led policy groups will want to radically alter the country from an economic and cultural perspective and are willing to use whatever means they have at their disposal- The 'Legatus' group (Far-right free market, deregualtion libertarianist) has been a key lobby for Conservative policy of late. So brexit in a way here is only half the picture, and half the danger- but is entirely the 'means' (in the government as you rightly say being so secretive) for bringing about these wished for changes by lobbies.

    To give a more concise (I hope) example- May...sort of got in at the last GE on a platform of increased regulation, tackling wealth inequality and helping the 'JAMS'- now reality of course as the social mobility commitee disaster shows- none of this is happening. But a Moggs fronted faction of the Tories who are influenced by lobbies like Legatus are using brexit, the negotiations but more importantly the legislative powers the government is trying to take to keep the public and parliament in the dark about as tools to create their own vision which is the complete opposite of this- they do not have any kind of legitimate mandate to do so, but brexit provides the tools to circumvent that potentially- this is why i think its important that Parliament and public are indeed informed, but also are given greater say to counteract such powerful interests(made so by backing, but also how weak May is politically in regard to brexit) by removing the fact that in essence May is a punch-bag- which protects in many ways these groups from any electoral consequences and also emboldens them in exerting influence, by drawing all such decisions on working rights and economic structures (which are not negotiation related, but for some reason the government think should be able to be changed by ministers through secondary legislation- with no limits on their remit, and little to no actual scrutiny) etc into a public frame.

    If that makes sense, i might not be honestly Its been a long day and Panto season is downright exhausting.
    I think there is an aspect of Brexit that so far unsurprisingly, I haven't heard in the media, and that is the need to reform the political process and Parliament in particular. A great many people who voted Brexit, did so because of a annoyance at the political class who they believed weren't representative and unless more positive change comes in this direction the distance between Parliament and the people will continue to grow. Any government who attempts to push through greater control and take away powers away from Parliament will be myopic in the extreme, if they think that this will be supported, even swept along with something as emotive as leaving the European Union. That is even with the efforts of papers like the Mail. Although with many Brexiteers, it seems to have worked so far in making the enemy those who would make Brexit accountable to Parliament. Likewise, any attempt to use Parliament to subvert the will of the people by undermining the outcome of the referendum, will also entrench many people low opinion of politicians in general.

    Exhausting!? are you in a panto Dante, Widow Twankey perhaps? With a liking of Pantomime and politics, you certainly should be seeking a career in Westminster.
    Last edited by caratacus; December 15, 2017 at 11:02 AM.

  8. #68
    Dante Von Hespburg's Avatar Sloth's Inferno
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    Default Re: Brexit-time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by caratacus View Post
    The newspapers have a problem with declining circulation and are desperate to remain relevant to their readers. But lets not forget that all are pushing a political agenda of their owners and I have no doubt that was the reason the Mail undertook such a provocative headline which is bound to stir up animosity. Quite why a Conservative leaning party would want to demonise 11 Conservative MPs rather than the opposition parties who were responsible for mounting a covert campaign to delay and thwart Brexit, I leave up to you to decide. For me, it is a clear case of attempting to cover the duplicity in the present government with Brussels in agreeing a direction in negotiating Brexit which the majority that voted for it, would not agree with.

    Social media is indeed becoming a lot more popular in disseminating news than it was an Labour have been more successful in this than the Conservatives. But viewing a Youtube channel on politics yesterday, which attempts to place some light on many of the underlying motivations behind the political process. I can't but help thinking that these channels simply enforce our own cynical opinions rather than influence those with only a casual interest in politics. In that, a headline slotted in the Sun newspaper between the winner of Bog Brother and Prince Harry's relationships, is probably still more likely to shape opinions.
    That's a fair point here and indeed a possibility. Honestly the fractious nature of the Conservative party has made it uncharacteristically murky of which papers are supporting which 'faction'. I know it was leaked that Murdoch and Gove were once more a 'thing'- hence partly why Gove is being media rehabilitated to be wholesome to the public (And putting him in environment i dare say helps, as while its a 'non entity' position- it also is one that politically in terms of public image, unless you are a moron, your always going to get a good reception). But yeah, its unclear what exactly is going on, a big part of it stemming from the fact their is no 'successor' candidate yet on the horizon, so perhaps a lot of the press on both sides are unsure exactly what to attack and not- lack of dogs for the fight in essence

    With social media, i can't say honestly. We both agree that its growing in importance, and i get your point about 'echo-chamber' syndrome (Though of course isn't that also how our papers work? We only buy those we agree with?). Though also i would say that Labours facebook ads and online presence and also the fact that they had their activists run rampant over their Conservative counterpart's pages had quite a big impact among those under 45 voters, have a fair degree of influence in all those under that age bracket 'swinging their way'. I found it quite interesting indeed, to look at Labours pages (The echo-chamber ), but i notice there was no 'dissent'...but then looking across at say Theresa May's Facebook page, or the Conservative Party twitter/Facebook and the comments there would be full of dissent, people debating, lots of posts outright 'flaming the government'- a fair few posting links to a Labour page of some kind. I suspect that has quite a big impact on those perusing the Tory pages, and indeed on undecided/politically nonchalant who might only be perusing to get some idea of what the election is about.

    The Conservative attempt to set up their own online 'youth wing' (Funded by the party directly and led by a few MP's) to counter this and build up their online presence, has thus far not really delivered results. Within a few days they were marred in scandal being called out for joking about 'gassing chavs', and then also something about bullying- so it rather fell apart. I think the issue is that the Conservatives do not understand that an online media presence (be it webpages, activists, 'trolls' etc) is not something you can 'force' from the top down- you have to build it from the grass roots. Something they always struggle at.

    But yeah, i think the next GE will be interesting in the social regard to see not only if Labours lead in this realm was temporary (I suspect it isn't) but also the extent of its ability to sustain support as traditional media once allowed someone to do- i think the differences between signing up to a newspaper subscription of sustained exposure and randomly coming across pro/anti political articles is considerable perhaps indeed.

    The Government have truly messed up in these negotiations big time! But I can't help thinking that "Appeaser" May breathed a sigh of relief when the vote was declared in favour of giving Parliament a greater influence in the negotiating process. She knows the agreement she is wanting, is not what the British people want and this easily passes on the blame to those in Parliament who have already demonstrated their intention to make a Brexit softer than a downy pillar laid across Jean-Claude Juncker's chest.
    Perhaps, though i couldn't say due to Davis when delivering the governments official line on it went into...meltdown? His responses did not make much sense at all- going from pretending as if the vote had not happened, to now saying 'difficult with the timescale' to 'we accept this defeat' to 'we'll fight it'. May hasn't been much better. So i'm unsure if their welcoming it or not- you do have a good point though in it providing a cushion for blame, in which case i'd expect them to put up token remorse and 'carry on chaps'- though again can't really gauge this as it appears they haven't decided yet!

    Again interesting today- Davis is still on about a 'Canada plus plus plus' deal making sure finance is the crux of it... despite that not really being within the realm of possibility without accepting single market terms. So much for managing expectations i think.

    I think there is an aspect of Brexit that so far unsurprisingly, I haven't heard in the media, and that is the need to reform the political process and Parliament in particular. A great many people who voted Brexit, did so because of a annoyance at the political class who they believed weren't representative and unless more positive change comes in this direction the distance between Parliament and the people will continue to grow. Any government who attempts to push through greater control and take away powers away from Parliament will be myopic in the extreme, if they think that this will be supported, even swept along with something as emotive as leaving the European Union. That is even with the efforts of papers like the Mail. Although with many Brexiteers, it seems to have worked so far in making the enemy those who would make Brexit accountable to Parliament. Likewise, any attempt to use Parliament to subvert the will of the people by undermining the outcome of the referendum, will also entrench many people low opinion of politicians in general.
    I can't agree enough with you about the need for political reform in the UK. Its my one major disappointment regarding Labour, who make noises about reform, but no firm commitments as they would not benefit from it. The big two will never seriously engage with the idea and the smaller parties have very little hope of ever making big enough waves. I hope you are right though in that the public would not tolerate an implementation of the factional plans regarding using brexit for structural change- but again as you said about the Papers and brexiteers, there are also a very vocal section of the populace from both sides who seem to think that ministers being given Henry VIII powers (without a deadline of when they end i might add) is a great thing, that indeed Parliament is a bulwark for Remain/Leave and should be excluded. Its the fact that in essence things you think the citizenry should be rightly wary of, their actually apathetic or indeed supportive of, and that's when i start worrying that yep- a small faction, influenced by powerful lobbies will be quite easily able to use the brexit smokescreen to reshape the UK with little resistance and no scrutiny- i can even see the arguments 'to make brexit a success and increase productivity and provide housing for all we will remove the necessity for properties to be 'fit for human habitation' and other red-tape regarding needless extra security and safety specifications'- Of course if i wasn't being facetious i'm pretty sure even i could spin that in a way that would have people going 'yeah, that's right'.

    Exhausting!? are you in a panto Dante, Widow Twankey perhaps? With a liking of Pantomime and politics, you certainly should be seeking a career in Westminster


    Haha i am indeed! Currently take whatever work i can get, so over Christmas i have the illustrious role of 'Chorus 1' My acting career is reaching new heights, though i'm pretty sure i only got the part due to affirmative action, i'm the token hetro . But seriously all i can say is that i'm glad i'm a student predominantly and didn't try making acting a 'real' career- as those guys are suffering badly right now due to the current mentality of 'stay in my role until i die' that has afflicted the west-end.

    But heck yes i think that i could make me a consummate politician, i can adeptly do a song and dance about nothing of relevance AND talk a load of twaddle, and currently i do it all for meager pay by comparison! Not sure why May hasn't come begging yet.
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  9. #69
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    Default Re: Brexit-time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by ioannis76 View Post
    Interesting statement, given that the EU itself is completely dependent on other countries (not least Russia) for energy. One long fuel embargo from Russia would be enough to wreak havoc on all european industries.
    And thats why EU "elite" is pushing for a rapid adoptation of renewable energies, and they have done wonders so far.
    "Therefore I am not in favour of raising any dogmatic banner. On the contrary, we must try to help the dogmatists to clarify their propositions for themselves. Thus, communism, in particular, is a dogmatic abstraction; in which connection, however, I am not thinking of some imaginary and possible communism, but actually existing communism as taught by Cabet, Dézamy, Weitling, etc. This communism is itself only a special expression of the humanistic principle, an expression which is still infected by its antithesis – the private system. Hence the abolition of private property and communism are by no means identical, and it is not accidental but inevitable that communism has seen other socialist doctrines – such as those of Fourier, Proudhon, etc. – arising to confront it because it is itself only a special, one-sided realisation of the socialist principle."
    Marx to A.Ruge

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    HannibalExMachina's Avatar Just a sausage
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    Default Re: Brexit-time to scrap it and start again?

    dont worry about russia, ivan needs to sell to someone.

    here, if i recall we pissed off poland to build this:

    https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nord_Stream

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    Default Re: Brexit-time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by dogukan View Post
    And thats why EU "elite" is pushing for a rapid adoptation of renewable energies, and they have done wonders so far.

    I'm not sure if one can support heavy industries with renewable energy sources at this point. Even so, I think that Germany would only rely on wind energy as far as renewables go.

    dont worry about russia, ivan needs to sell to someone.
    Ivan needs to sell to someone, but if the EU pushes Ivan too far, an embargo would be an interesting alternative to war. Any measures are likely to hurt both ways anyway, but I do think that shutting down German industry is going to do wonders for Germany politically. Already, the AfD was rising with no economic crisis in Germany. Imagine millions of unemployed Germans, watching "immigrants" enjoying benefits... maybe they'd start voting with their brain, not their "feelz".

    The Truth is Hate for those who hate the Truth.

  12. #72
    dogukan's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Brexit-time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by ioannis76 View Post
    I'm not sure if one can support heavy industries with renewable energy sources at this point. Even so, I think that Germany would only rely on wind energy as far as renewables go.
    Energy is stored just the same.
    You can have a look at it here:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renewa...European_Union

    Doesn't matter if energy comes from coal, or gas, or oil or wind turbine, or solar panels.
    The problem with the renewable energies thus far was their low efficiency and high costs. A balance that is changing extremely rapidly.

    Unsuprisingly, Russia is quiet against these changes because by the time their biggest consumer markets switch to renewable energies, a huge portion of their exports, which are primary goods will decline. Its bad for an already declining and outdated, un-innovative economy. (they did relatively ok this quarter by a 2% growth but I mean they are a middle-income country)
    "Therefore I am not in favour of raising any dogmatic banner. On the contrary, we must try to help the dogmatists to clarify their propositions for themselves. Thus, communism, in particular, is a dogmatic abstraction; in which connection, however, I am not thinking of some imaginary and possible communism, but actually existing communism as taught by Cabet, Dézamy, Weitling, etc. This communism is itself only a special expression of the humanistic principle, an expression which is still infected by its antithesis – the private system. Hence the abolition of private property and communism are by no means identical, and it is not accidental but inevitable that communism has seen other socialist doctrines – such as those of Fourier, Proudhon, etc. – arising to confront it because it is itself only a special, one-sided realisation of the socialist principle."
    Marx to A.Ruge

  13. #73
    HannibalExMachina's Avatar Just a sausage
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    Default Re: Brexit-time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by ioannis76 View Post
    I'm not sure if one can support heavy industries with renewable energy sources at this point. Even so, I think that Germany would only rely on wind energy as far as renewables go.



    Ivan needs to sell to someone, but if the EU pushes Ivan too far, an embargo would be an interesting alternative to war. Any measures are likely to hurt both ways anyway, but I do think that shutting down German industry is going to do wonders for Germany politically. Already, the AfD was rising with no economic crisis in Germany. Imagine millions of unemployed Germans, watching "immigrants" enjoying benefits... maybe they'd start voting with their brain, not their "feelz".
    you are so bloody scared of dirty foreigners, you never voted with anything but your "feelz".

    the AfD will make anything into a scare, and even a real crisis got them barely double digits. once the ruckus has died down, the idiots voting for them will realize they cant get anything done. not that they could, they will never be in the government, but that didnt register with their followers when they voted, so why should it then. theyll go back where they crawled from.

    the russians are already suffering from sanctions, they cant piss off their buisness partners in the west too. germany can get resources elsewhere, russia is short on friends. so is britain btw.

  14. #74

    Default Re: Brexit-time to scrap it and start again?

    Gina Miller, who is always right about such things Brexit (the Supreme Court says so Mrs May!) now beleives that any withdrawal agreement, and any future trade agreement replacing the existing treaties will require a new referendum under the European Act 2011. Sounds fair enough , its clear that the Tories entered this undertaking without a clue what was required of them. A referendum would force both leave and remain to argue their case on observable facts rather than , as HannibalExMachina describes, with feelz.


    http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/...-a8107931.html
    Absolutley Barking, Mudpit Mutt Former Patron: Garbarsardar

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  15. #75

    Default Re: Brexit-time to scrap it and start again?

    You can't just host referendums until political establishment receives the result it desires. Anyone who would support such notion clearly doesn't care about actual democracy.

  16. #76

    Default Re: Brexit-time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    You can't just host referendums until political establishment receives the result it desires. Anyone who would support such notion clearly doesn't care about actual democracy.
    You don't get it. The law may suggest that a referendum is required regardless of the result the political establishment desires. It's called holding politicians to account, the very basis of democracy.
    Absolutley Barking, Mudpit Mutt Former Patron: Garbarsardar

    "Out of the crooked tree of humanity,no straight thing can be made." Immanuel Kant
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  17. #77
    caratacus's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Brexit-time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by mongrel View Post
    You don't get it. The law may suggest that a referendum is required regardless of the result the political establishment desires. It's called holding politicians to account, the very basis of democracy.
    It's absolutely nothing about democracy, its about Gina Miler the establishment sock puppet, doing her best to thwart Brexit. Where was this defender of the Constitution, when so much of our law making was surrendered to Brussels. Did we get a say, Noooo!! Did we get a say when the trade organization that the British people voted on to join(the EEC) morphed into pan European government body the EU, Noooo!!

    Referendums are not formally part of our constitutional government anyway, so I doubt very much that any Supreme Court can require it. The next shenanigans to be played out, will rather be the opposition parties, together with their new found friends on the Tory back benches, attempting to kick Brexit further down the road by voting against a set date for leaving. Given our PM already seems to have capitulated on this important aspect. It looks like Appeser May is either sympathetic to their objectives or doesn't want a government defeat in the House and a leadership challenge. I mean she is doing such a good job for (Brussels!!) I mean Brexit, it would be a complete disaster right?
    Theresa May compromises on Brexit date to avoid second Commons defeat
    http://www.itv.com/news/2017-12-16/b...h-tory-rebels/
    Now Mrs May has agreed to offer more flexibility over the date of the UK's exit from the EU in an effort to win doubters among her MPs. She wants the planned date of Brexit - 29 March 2019 - to be written into the government's legislation. However, she had now agreed to measures allowing the date to be changed if negotiations with Brussels look set to stretch beyond that date.

  18. #78

    Default Re: Brexit-time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by caratacus View Post
    It's absolutely nothing about democracy, its about Gina Miler the establishment sock puppet, doing her best to thwart Brexit. Where was this defender of the Constitution, when so much of our law making was surrendered to Brussels. Did we get a say, Noooo!! Did we get a say when the trade organization that the British people voted on to join(the EEC) morphed into pan European government body the EU, Noooo!!
    No she damned well isn't, it was the Supreme Court decided that Parliament had the right to have a final say on Brexit andnot the Prime Minister. She actually did the country a service by challenging the establishment as you call it. What was she doing in 1972, when Ted Heath took us into the EEC? She was a child. If only she had a TARDIS or modified Delorean,the poor sod.

    Quote Originally Posted by caratacus View Post
    Referendums are not formally part of our constitutional government anyway, so I doubt very much that any Supreme Court can require it. The next shenanigans to be played out, will rather be the opposition parties, together with their new found friends on the Tory back benches, attempting to kick Brexit further down the road by voting against a set date for leaving. Given our PM already seems to have capitulated on this important aspect. It looks like Appeser May is either sympathetic to their objectives or doesn't want a government defeat in the House and a leadership challenge. I mean she is doing such a good job for (Brussels!!) I mean Brexit, it would be a complete disaster right?
    The Supreme Court's only requirement is that the law is followed. Its what judges do. As I pointed out to HH, whether they agree depends entirely on the letter of the European Act, not sentiment. Following the law, which looks like it ought to be tested, does not alter the merits of Brexit or Remain, indeed it would give the result, either way, added legitmacy.

    Is your worry that Remain's argument would be stronger if people voted on the experiences so far and actual data, rather than the bollocks offered by both sides last time round?
    Absolutley Barking, Mudpit Mutt Former Patron: Garbarsardar

    "Out of the crooked tree of humanity,no straight thing can be made." Immanuel Kant
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  19. #79

    Default Re: Brexit-time to scrap it and start again?

    There was already referendum and decision has already been made. If Remain was to win, they would probably have had to use actual facts instead of emotional panic-inducing statements about potential apocalypse in the event of Brexit. I get that you realize that Remain would still lose (since second referendum would probably backfire PR-wise for obvious reasons), but you hope that this time establishment is more prepared to either doctor the results directly or simply organize media hoaxes to push the public opinion towards the desired outcome.

  20. #80

    Default Re: Brexit-time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    There was already referendum and decision has already been made. If Remain was to win, they would probably have had to use actual facts instead of emotional panic-inducing statements about potential apocalypse in the event of Brexit. I get that you realize that Remain would still lose (since second referendum would probably backfire PR-wise for obvious reasons), but you hope that this time establishment is more prepared to either doctor the results directly or simply organize media hoaxes to push the public opinion towards the desired outcome.
    It is not about the feelz.

    It was a non-binding advisory poll. May's mistake was to pretend that it wasn't, in order to placate the loonier end of the Brexiteers, rather than co-operate ewith a Labour Party whose Remainers were decisively repressed by one O Jeremy Corbyn.May's job was to act in the national interest, she is failing to do that. If the law is found to require another referendum , she is bound by it. If it does not, well if the Brexit case is that good it can tested again , this time properly.

    The only person doing the 'doctoring' as you call it is Davis, who promised impact assessments, which did not exist. There are things which are not hoaxes, inflation increasing, EU nationals still remaining here and if a 'soft Brexit ' is chosen still migrating here, so much for migration control, no EU health treatment and restrictions on travel. Paying more for DVDs bought online as duty will now have to be paid on them as indeed for anything else imported costing less than 15 quid. And where the hell are we going to get 8,000 customs officials needed to check goods if Brexit goes hard? A soft Brexit would avoid the worst of these effects, but people aren't idiots, they will notice this. As for the pluses for Brexit as far as the country goes, no-one has actually articulated this in a coherent way.
    Absolutley Barking, Mudpit Mutt Former Patron: Garbarsardar

    "Out of the crooked tree of humanity,no straight thing can be made." Immanuel Kant
    "Oh Yeah? What about a cricket bat? That's pretty straight. Just off the top of my head..." Al Murray, Pub Landlord.

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