Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

[Elmetiacos]

If you have a hard Brexit then goodbye to the Union. Scotland will walk ASAP and Northern Ireland will probably join them somehow (or could they unthinkably join with the Republic?). Great Britain was always Home Counties first, screw the rest. Maybe Wales and Cornwall would be looking for some way out? Although constitutionally I don't think they have a hope.

No. The economic reality is that a hard border between Scotland and England would be seen as hurting the Scottish economy even more than leaving the EU. Cornwall is one of the most solidly pro-Brexit, anti-EU regions in the Isles, and in Wales the Brexit boyos in the Valleys outvoted y Cymry in the North.

[Muizer]

No. The economic reality is that a hard border between Scotland and England would be seen as hurting the Scottish economy even more than leaving the EU.

I see you have a much higher opion of the Scots than of the English when it comes to making a reasoned choice!

[Dante Von Hespburg]

No. The economic reality is that a hard border between Scotland and England would be seen as hurting the Scottish economy even more than leaving the EU. Cornwall is one of the most solidly pro-Brexit, anti-EU regions in the Isles, and in Wales the Brexit boyos in the Valleys outvoted y Cymry in the North.

Economics hasn't really played much part though since. The issue with Scotland is that brexit tore to shreds the possibility of a lasting conciliation between the Union and a significant portion of Scots. The only reasons that the UK won the Scottish referendum (And i say this as someone who actively supported the Union) is because of A) EU membership - The UK told Scotland it would struggle to get a place quikcly B) Literally in the last few days prior to vote there was a huge panic in Westminster and several 'big wigs' flew North and promised devo-max essentially.

And even then the vote was pretty close. What brexit has done is removed A, and for B is essentially messed it up due to the debates over the amount of powers that Scotland will get back, or that will be centralized (However long) in Westminster. So while i don't think we'll see an immediate call for a second Scottish referendum- it essentially has destroyed the chance we had to 'solve' things on a more stable footing for perhaps decades to come. The one thing it has definitely done though is remove 'economic' as being the powerful UK calling card it once was- both in terms of perception and perhaps worse, potentially in actuality if the brexit deal does not maintain current living standards, welfare and base (Which is pretty bad currently regardless- thus even if brexit technically doesn't effect things, it will be easy to spin brexit as seeing a continuing increase in all the current economic ills). This is made worse by Scotland 'Voting Remain' as its been called, which regardless on where you stand on the brexit vote- gives the SNP huge political capital to point out the massive political divides between Scotland and England- and add to this brexit causing any economic damage and you have a potent mix politically for going independent potentially if used right- which again whatever you think of the SNP they have proven to be very good political operators.

I mean consider this- the SNP essentially destroy Labour's presence in Scotland, and the Scottish Conservative revival has been a dead duck, its unlikely many will remain in the next GE due to Tory brexit related issues, but also domestic. This on top of the Conservative presence only really being there due to them being the only 'viable' option (at the time) for Scottish unionists- with Corbyn being seen as being dead in the water at the time (Last GE early days) and thus only the Conservatives able to reign in the SNP.

[Copperknickers II]

The EU was always going to force us to choose between no-deal and returning to the EU by giving us a deal nobody would vote for.

The EU are not 'forcing' Tory rebels to do anything. They CHOOSE to refuse to vote for their own leader's deal, which became necessary due to their OWN failures under the leadership of David Davis during the time he squandered as Brexit secretary. It's also not the EU's fault that May's deal is impossible to implement if you remove the backstop - that is due to the red lines of the Brexiteers themselves which preclude any agreement of British territory risking membership of the customs union. A totally illogical and unnecessary red line, considering the backstop is theoretical and will only come into play if the Brexit negotiations fail to produce an agreement. By forestalling the deal over the backstop, the Brexiteers are actually increasing the likelihood of no Brexit.

[Katsumoto]

Interesting article in the NYT that unfortunately sums up my feelings too:

Brexit: The Most Boring Important Story in the World

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/14/o...gtype=Homepage

[Aexodus]

Why does the media call leavers brexiteers but calling remainers remoaners is off limits. Huh

[Katsumoto]

I don't think Brexiteer is meant as an insult, just someone in favour of leaving.

[Iskar]

Why does the media call leavers brexiteers but calling remainers remoaners is off limits. Huh

In contrast to "remoaners" the "brexiteer" thing does not contain an insulting wordplay, as far as I can see. For what it matters it reminds me of musqueteers, grenadiers, etc. if anything.

[Diocle]

In contrast to "remoaners" the "brexiteer" thing does not contain an insulting wordplay, as far as I can see. For what it matters it reminds me of musqueteers, grenadiers, etc. if anything.

Think that instead for me, if anything .. it reminds me how much the mainstream media are full of biased morons! It's true that life is a weird and multiform, wonderful maze!

[caratacus]

I'd say like Cavaliers, but they will be more like Roundheads the way things are going.

Interesting article in the NYT that unfortunately sums up my feelings too:

Brexit: The Most Boring Important Story in the World

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/14/o...gtype=Homepage

The British public aren't bored with Brexit, just fatigued. If you ask most people they will simply say about government "why don't they get on with it" They understand little of the complexities of withdrawal nor that they have a political class that is set on an agenda to undermine the process. That realisation is now only just beginning to sink home with most people, as we have a Brexit plan revealed which isn't Brexit and we near the March 2019 deadline for leaving, with a choice of accept or don't leave at all!

There is however for some time been a growing discontent with the direction that society is taking and the fact that ordinary people no longer feel that it is working for them. You don't just see it in Britain, you see across Europe and has come to a boil in France It is certainly present in the US even Russia, and was attributed to the election of Donald Trump. Perhaps it isn't surprising that a globalist focused paper like the New York Times, chooses not to draw parallels.

In this article shortly after the referendum two years ago, they partly identified the issue, but now report that same disconnection as apathy. The ongoing Brexit story is anything but boring, and to report it as an anti climax story, fails the reader who wants to understand world events or what is behind them.

Wigan’s Road to ‘Brexit’: Anger, Loss and Class Resentments
https://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/06/w...ss-voters.html

"Their votes were stark evidence of how working-class resentments, driven by feelings of being ignored and left unmoored in a rapidly changing world, are feeding nationalism and other efforts to reclaim a sense of identity, upending ideological assumptions and straining ties to political parties and other institutions."

[Dante Von Hespburg]

Why does the media call leavers brexiteers but calling remainers remoaners is off limits. Huh

Because 'Brexiteer' is in no way offensive mate. Its what some call themselves as a badge of bride- at root mainly because the 'three musketeers' that it is a quip from are kinda cool, rebellious against the state (Cardinal Richelieu and an inept king), loyal to one another and with the goal of protecting the state from itself (The kings rather inept). So i don't know how you could spin that into a negative .

'Remoaners' because its genuinely an insult, and one that has some rather interesting connotations from those who use it about how they see democracy. To be fair though, its usually only used by people who know nothing of politics and history- particularly because the successful referendum to join- the voices of dissent among those who were anti-EU or euro-skeptic were not shut down, but indeed carried on, battling through their loss and culminated in this current referendum.

I rather appreciate Caratacus's statement to why it is used too.

I'd say like Cavaliers, but they will be more like Roundheads the way things are going.


The British public aren't bored with Brexit, just fatigued. If you ask most people they will simply say about government "why don't they get on with it" They understand little of the complexities of withdrawal nor that they have a political class that is set on an agenda to undermine the process. That realisation is now only just beginning to sink home with most people, as we have a Brexit plan revealed which isn't Brexit and we near the March 2019 deadline for leaving, with a choice of accept or don't leave at all!

There is however for some time been a growing discontent with the direction that society is taking and the fact that ordinary people no longer feel that it is working for them. You don't just see it in Britain, you see across Europe and has come to a boil in France It is certainly present in the US even Russia, and was attributed to the election of Donald Trump. Perhaps it isn't surprising that a globalist focused paper like the New York Times, chooses not to draw parallels.

In this article shortly after the referendum two years ago, they partly identified the issue, but now report that same disconnection as apathy. The ongoing Brexit story is anything but boring, and to report it as an anti climax story, fails the reader who wants to understand world events or what is behind them.

Agreed here about breixt not being boring- i think the issue has been as with many things political- once its over, most people cease to care again- its only a few weirdo's like us who really enjoy 'politics' and seeing how and why things are shaping up- getting annoyed when our team are screwing around etc- there was a study somewhere i remember where they equated politics (British politics that is, it didn't go beyond that scope) with Football- same kind of loyalties and discussion is generated, only by a far smaller niche of people.

In regards to populism, it'll be interesting to see. Corbyn has rather plugged the UK's 'populist' gap by his presentation of himself as anti...well everything traditional about the British government. Whether that is true in detail or not is another matter (Then again Trump is essentially the 'american establishment' given his wealth, previous political connections and drive- so populists rarely are 'men of the people'). But the fact that his opponents frame him as being a 'populist' too, essentially reinforces his claims. Its partly though if i wanted to be cynical- why he's consistently kept brexit at arms length (Despite being pro brexit- for instance adamant in not supporting a second referendum and given his previous history of euroskepticism and the fact he essentially just was not their during the remain campaign)- but dealing with brexit would perhaps severely damage his populist credentials as he'd have to conrecrelty come down on a side, stick with it and engage in compromise politics. All things that would ruin his current portrayed image of the 'stand up, principled chap'- an image that politically has done a sterling job as he's kept both leavers (traditional social democrats- anti- EU typically) and remainers (Young voters particularly) behind him.

I think too that brexit now whatever happens, does lead to a Labour government (I wouldn't necessarily say a Corbyn government though), the Conservatives had affiliated it with themselves, the public infighting solidifying the image that even the best spin of 'Labour did not help' or 'The EU were mean' will not save them at this point- specifically again because any perceived economic damage will see them suffer, and there is no specific electoral dividend for carrying out brexit- Would Left-wing Leave voters ever vote Conservative as a 'thank you' post-brexit? I can't ever see that happening considering the Conservatives have so polarized and messed up on the domestic front at the same time as brexit. This combination of losing on brexit and domestic fronts will see them in opposition i suspect- pending a massive internal shift and new unity of purpose, which they just will not have. Brexit as we've seen even after the VONC against May has inflicted wounds on the party in their rhetoric to each other that may take several parliaments to heal.

[caratacus]

One thing about Brexit coverage that certainly isn't boring is Jean-Claude Juncker, he is even more entertaining than Boris Yelsin. You never know what he is going to do next. I even learned a new Anglo/French word from his antics this week, the word "nebulous" His telling off by May and subsequent kiss to make up was highly amusing.

Trully refreshing in this day of PC, that a European leader knows how to greet a woman official.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Cyclops]

I think the "nebulous" thing was for British consumption. He explained he used the word to describe the schemozzle in Westminster, not her offer (I believe the record bears him out, surprisingly as he's a bent bureaucrat). She just needed to win a bout of biffo because things are going badly at home.

She's played her cards well, and may get her semi-Brexit after all by triggering a half-arsed challenge. I have there's so little good faith in this entire process. Britain was sold into the EEC by de-emphasising that fact sovereignty would be eroded. Neither major party ever really challenged to process until Cameron staggered into allowing the Brexit vote.

I think the Brexiteers won because they didn't lie as much as the other mob (while still lying their arses off). Now neither party wants to bear the blame for the economic loss of a Hard Brexit or the sheer betrayal of a Semi-Brexit.

I had hoped Britain would remain because leaving will hurt my UK friends economically. Also I think its good for all Europeans to be strapped tightly together, it seems to have lessened the powerful reflex to war in that part of the world. A semi Brexit fro Britain leads IMHO to some other semi-Brexits and a lot of the good work of the EU (I know its an instrument of German rule now but it has done some good) will be thrown away.

Englishmen crowing about sovereignty is also a bit silly, its a deeply unfree and unfair society. Some of what the EU infringed upon was the right to be a stuffy old Gammon.

[caratacus]

I think the "nebulous" thing was for British consumption. He explained he used the word to describe the schemozzle in Westminster, not her offer (I believe the record bears him out, surprisingly as he's a bent bureaucrat). She just needed to win a bout of biffo because things are going badly at home.

She's played her cards well, and may get her semi-Brexit after all by triggering a half-arsed challenge. I have there's so little good faith in this entire process. Britain was sold into the EEC by de-emphasising that fact sovereignty would be eroded. Neither major party ever really challenged to process until Cameron staggered into allowing the Brexit vote.

I think the Brexiteers won because they didn't lie as much as the other mob (while still lying their arses off). Now neither party wants to bear the blame for the economic loss of a Hard Brexit or the sheer betrayal of a Semi-Brexit.

I had hoped Britain would remain because leaving will hurt my UK friends economically. Also I think its good for all Europeans to be strapped tightly together, it seems to have lessened the powerful reflex to war in that part of the world. A semi Brexit fro Britain leads IMHO to some other semi-Brexits and a lot of the good work of the EU (I know its an instrument of German rule now but it has done some good) will be thrown away.

Englishmen crowing about sovereignty is also a bit silly, its a deeply unfree and unfair society. Some of what the EU infringed upon was the right to be a stuffy old Gammon.

I think in exchange between May and Juncker shown, the body language and mouthed words clearly show her accusing him of using this term relating to her approach to the EU. Juncker and Tusk are very arrogant towards the British people regarding Brexit and this is precisely why an acceptable withdrawal agreement could never be reached. It is a failing of European business that they haven't put enough pressure on them to resolve this very serious situation and a failure of our PM that she hasn't stood up to them. If May was using this as a technique of winning the British people over to her side, she would have walked out of the meeting, because she has been left with nothing to take back to parliament. She is today however, lashing out at Tony Blair, someone who isn't very popular with the electorate but who thinks that he speaks on their behalf, and has regular meetings with EU officials regarding another referendum.

Theresa May condemns Tony Blair's new Brexit vote call
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46582705
Theresa May has attacked one of her predecessors - accusing Tony Blair of "undermining" the Brexit talks by calling for another referendum.

She called his comments an "insult to the office he once held" and said MPs could not "abdicate responsibility" to deliver Brexit by holding a new poll.

I am a Brexiteer, but it has probably come to the time for Theresa May to make a statement to the British people that she intends to revoke Article 50 and declare a new election. She should apologise sincerely that she had tried to negotiate with the EU and failed and she had never genuinely felt the UK should leave the EU. Because of this, no preparations had been done over the past two years of her administration and it would leave the Country badly exposed to detrimental effects, especially on the economy should we do so in March. She should then bow out to go on a walking holiday in Wales and leave the resultant constitutional mess to the next PM, which will probably be Jeremy Corbyn. Those who think that remaining in the EU is the end of the matter are sadly deluded because the ramifications of all this will have a huge impact on British politics for years to come, not least upon the Conservative party. It is quite evident to anybody, that we cannot leave the EU, let alone make it work, until we change our parliamentary system.

[Cyclops]

Blair is backing a Re-Brentry? Well that's doomed then.

I agree the Parliamentary system has deep problems. They took you into Europe without spelling out the definite loss of sovereignty involved. They took you into Iraq. They blundered into Brexit against the will of most of the politicians: that alone shows how broken the system is, that the result many people wanted came about despite the resistance of a majority of parliament for decades. Now the majority of Parliament are still against a real brexit despite the referendum: they either want to stay or only partially leave.

I think the decisions being made are a mix of self serving short sighted game playing and dishonest service of tiny wealthy sectional interests, many of them not British.

[mongrel]

@ caratacus. I think you are right. Even if the sensible thing happens and May decides it's 'time to scrap it and start again', the damage done to our Parliamentary conventions and policy making processis unprecedented and will be difficult to fix. As for the public trust in politicians......

Departments can't deliver any meaningful work on anything other than a handful of Budget measures and Brexit due to total control of policy maters by an inept Downing Street, leaving the counry bereft on ways of adressing increasing poverty, unaffordable house prices and rents, soaring crime and an NHS unable to recruit staff. I can't see the British people putting up with this for much longer.

In the meantime, here's an interesting idea to overcome the Brexit impasse, appointing a citizen's assembly of around 500 members of the public, to debate the issue and come to a conclusion.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...rexit-deadlock
.

[neoptolemos]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Mte...MTuJjmEIcQSg8U

If this whole Brexit process so far hasn't been an example of incompetence for Brexiteers, what exactly are they supposed to be hoping for?
The same people responsible for this mess, will be the ones running Britain without the EU scapegoat this time.
1.Unprepared for the referrendum
2. Unprepared for the results
3. Unprepared for the negotiations and the process
4. Unable to agree on what kind of Brexit
5. Incompetence to have a widely accepted deal.......

Then somehow "Rule Britania", "We will be better of EU" "Sky is the limit" etc.......

[Basil II the B.S]

Hey, half of that credit goes to the Remain side. They organized the referendum thinking they'd win. May and her entourage were remainers, they stepped in accepting the referendum result and saying they'll deliver. Then it turns out they had no clue what they were doing all along.

[Paggers]

I think in exchange between May and Juncker shown, the body language and mouthed words clearly show her accusing him of using this term relating to her approach to the EU. Juncker and Tusk are very arrogant towards the British people regarding Brexit and this is precisely why an acceptable withdrawal agreement could never be reached. It is a failing of European business that they haven't put enough pressure on them to resolve this very serious situation and a failure of our PM that she hasn't stood up to them. If May was using this as a technique of winning the British people over to her side, she would have walked out of the meeting, because she has been left with nothing to take back to parliament. She is today however, lashing out at Tony Blair, someone who isn't very popular with the electorate but who thinks that he speaks on their behalf, and has regular meetings with EU officials regarding another referendum.

It's been a serious weakness of Mrs May. Not 100% certain if it is herself or the immediate circle which she appointed. Also, I'm amazed that Tony Blair still seems unable to grasp his current popularity is damaging to whichever cause he espouses in the UK.

I am a Brexiteer, but it has probably come to the time for Theresa May to make a statement to the British people that she intends to revoke Article 50 and declare a new election. She should apologise sincerely that she had tried to negotiate with the EU and failed and she had never genuinely felt the UK should leave the EU. Because of this, no preparations had been done over the past two years of her administration and it would leave the Country badly exposed to detrimental effects, especially on the economy should we do so in March. She should then bow out to go on a walking holiday in Wales and leave the resultant constitutional mess to the next PM, which will probably be Jeremy Corbyn. Those who think that remaining in the EU is the end of the matter are sadly deluded because the ramifications of all this will have a huge impact on British politics for years to come, not least upon the Conservative party. It is quite evident to anybody, that we cannot leave the EU, let alone make it work, until we change our parliamentary system.

I must say that I agree with all this apart from changing the Parliamentary system. We are currently not a direct democracy and this whole exercise has shown that direct democracy does not sit well with a Parliamentary / Representative democracy. I also assume you mean that Mrs May intends to request Parliament to revoke Article 50. However, as the ear trumpet I ordered for her has not yet been dispatched from Amazon, I suspect she will press on regardless with her deal. Although I hope to God I am wrong on this.

[Daruwind]

I would give credits to all sides. ;-) And it is not problem to do one bad step, however current situation seems like pile of those steps one after another.

Looking at how hard it is to actually join EU, what conditions must be met I would imagine that leaving would be similar process. I have no problem with UK leaving however it would be nice if Brits first decided what majority of nation wants, prepare according long term strategy and negotiations and after all is sweet and deal, then calmly trnasit from EU membership to whatever they would negotiated..

If the current opinions polls are like 54% for remain, then there is really something not good. Because there si still so much to discuss and negotiate, what would happen if some new challanges rise? I mean, electorate is always right. If in a few years people realize it is mess. Politicians will be always to blame.