Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

[removeduser_487563287433]

Tax-avoiding newpaper moghuls made sure of the result by effectively offering leave free anti-EU propaganda for years on end.

So... is it Tories or newspaper owners who are to blame?

[mongrel]

So... is it Tories or newspaper owners who are to blame?

Lets be generic. Bankers , hedge-fund managers and tax-avoiders. possibly Russians are to blame.They can benefit materially whilst the rest of us suffers. How else would the leave campaign get so much funding and free publicity, some of it dodgy, so it is alleged.

[removeduser_487563287433]

Lets be generic. Bankers , hedge-fund managers and tax-avoiders. possibly Russians are to blame.They can benefit materially whilst the rest of us suffers. How else would the leave campaign get so much funding and free publicity, some of it dodgy, so it is alleged.

Kind of makes you think that if it's not actually... you know... people voting for it that are to blame... that it's amazing Labour ever win with such a grand conspiracy stacked against them.

[mongrel]

Kind of makes you think that if it's not actually... you know... people voting for it that are to blame... that it's amazing Labour ever win with such a grand conspiracy stacked against them.

Come on now, you must have seen the vox pops and the BBC Question Time gammon. They all believed we could leave just like that, just as Davis promised, that miillions would go to the NHS, as Johnson promised and there would be no EU Turkish migration as Farage promised, even though , as it turned out Turkey was never going to join the EU anyway. Automatons the lot of them. I pity people who beleived these lies, blaming them seems unChristian. The refrendum should not have taken place in the first place.

[Morticia Iunia Bruti]

Interestingly Boris is the black sheep of the family, his father, his two brothers and his sister are pro-european.

[Elmetiacos]

Interestingly Boris is the black sheep of the family, his father, his two brothers and his sister are pro-european.

...as was he until he saw a political opportunity after falling out of favour with David Cameron.

[removeduser_487563287433]

Come on now, you must have seen the vox pops and the BBC Question Time gammon. They all believed we could leave just like that, just as Davis promised, that miillions would go to the NHS, as Johnson promised and there would be no EU Turkish migration as Farage promised, even though , as it turned out Turkey was never going to join the EU anyway. Automatons the lot of them. I pity people who beleived these lies, blaming them seems unChristian. The refrendum should not have taken place in the first place.

Yes well the problem is for all our brains and foresight we've utterly failed to convince anybody else. Blaming it on the other side's success in convincing them of lies is no defence for our utter and continuing failure.

[Morifea]

Yes well the problem is for all our brains and foresight we've utterly failed to convince anybody else. Blaming it on the other side's success in convincing them of lies is no defence for our utter and continuing failure.

And that`s the tragedy of every open minded democratic thinking person in our current western society

[mongrel]

Yes well the problem is for all our brains and foresight we've utterly failed to convince anybody else. Blaming it on the other side's success in convincing them of lies is no defence for our utter and continuing failure.

It was inevitable that wholes swathes of he country would vote against their own interests. I mean listen to this..He's not untypical.




Our politics is thouroughly degraded by tabloid racism. Mustn't forget that Russia had a part to play in the Brexit vote. Surprisingly there is no Mueller-style investigation into this as yet.

[removeduser_487563287433]

Maybe sneering at callers who have widely shared views isn't the way to win them over.

I mean, go on, explain to me why Remain is a good idea, without using any arguments as to why Brexit is a bad idea.

[caratacus]

Our politics is thouroughly degraded by tabloid racism. Mustn't forget that Russia had a part to play in the Brexit vote. Surprisingly there is no Mueller-style investigation into this as yet.

I always find With a little cognitive thinking, one is always able to divide the disemination of fake news and propoganda from real situations.

Page 23 previously discussed

Russia (insert- primarily Russia) and 20 other countries have moved to block the UK's WTO proposal to enjoy the same terms with the organization that we do now (As part of the EU) post-brexit. This essentially means that either we'll have to accept a much reduced position and schedule, or at best- we get it, but it takes years of wrangling. The 'No deal' brexit essentially is non-viable now.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/r...rade-m8025tqss.

If Putin is so pro Brexit, as you are trying to infer in an attempt to discredit the referendum, he has a funny way of showing it don't you think?
With Merkel's attitude to sanctions and Macron's anti US stance and push for a Euro army, the EU is the best friend Russia has.

[Dante Von Hespburg]

I always find With a little cognitive thinking, one is always able to divide the disemination of fake news and propoganda from real situations.

Page 23 previously discussed

If Putin is so pro Brexit, as you are trying to infer in an attempt to discredit the referendum, he has a funny way of showing it don't you think?
With Merkel's attitude to sanctions and Macron's anti US stance and push for a Euro army, the EU is the best friend Russia has.

It took me a while to see why i'd been quoted, blame the 5:30 starts to commute
Breaking news though people: The Withdrawal agreement draft text has been agreed- May is holding an emergency Cabinet meeting to essentially flog this for all she's worth to save her political career.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politi...unday_politics

Reportedly too it might include a backstop that leaves us a la Norway indefinitely. Though this is mere Westminster rumour-mongering currently- nothing official. It apparently also may see a border in the Irish Sea. The DUP haven't seen it yet, but have stated if its anything like any of the deals that have been proposed over the last few months or talked about- they won't support her government.

Watching what Cabinet does later will be interesting.

Also anyone suspect Jo Johnsons resignation, and subsequent taking up of the mantle of 'reasonable unifier' is a bid for his candidacy as leader/PM? Bearing in mind most Conservative voters favour a 'young, new MP' for leader over any of the current 'front benchers'- and he technically wasn't too 'front bench'. I kinda feel it could be.

EDIT: Apologies i was wrong indeed- Not an emergency cabinet meeting as reported earlier (It was there i swear!) It turns out now its a series of one on one meetings tonight, between May and each member of her Cabinet, and then Tomorrow a special meeting with them all together.

I suspect she's hoping to use this time to bribe, intimidate, convince, shout at, and potentially prepare a plan if/when any of her usual Cabinet opponents kick up a fuss. One on one too they'll be without peer support from the various remain or leave factions, and outside easy immediate contact. So 'frank' discussions may take place (I.e. Do as i say or you won't get a promotion, i'll leak that time you used expenses to pay for your Childs Birthday bash, I'll give you a knighthood...ohh and or i'll call a general election and lose it), it'll be interesting to see if its going to be enough- to me this implies the agreement text is very much a 'May' one- that kicked up so much opposition from Brexiteers and Remainers alike and thus she needs these extra measures to try and forge a clear path through Cabinet and into Parliament.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politi...mpaign=bbcnews

[Paggers]

It'll certainly be interesting to see when the resignations start. Further to earlier it doesn't seem to have been mentioned that a large section of leave voters did so not to make themselves poorer, but to make the better off parts of the country poorer. Or to put it another way, ensure Mr Cameron was correct that we're all in it together, because we damn well are now.
Also, just to lighten the mood from the general despondency, is it offensive to refer to a Muslim or Jewish leave voter as gammon?

[Dante Von Hespburg]

It'll certainly be interesting to see when the resignations start. Further to earlier it doesn't seem to have been mentioned that a large section of leave voters did so not to make themselves poorer, but to make the better off parts of the country poorer. Or to put it another way, ensure Mr Cameron was correct that we're all in it together, because we damn well are now.
Also, just to lighten the mood from the general despondency, is it offensive to refer to a Muslim or Jewish leave voter as gammon?

Haha well honestly i couldn't say...but that's most because i actually am probably one of the only people who have no idea what 'Gammon' means or how its used - i know its like a liberal/left-wing response to the increasing use of strange words by certain groups on the right (Cucks and abridging everything with 'Traitor' or 'shill'), but beyond that its beyond my ken.

[Paggers]

Haha well honestly i couldn't say...but that's most because i actually am probably one of the only people who have no idea what 'Gammon' means or how its used - i know its like a liberal/left-wing response to the increasing use of strange words by certain groups on the right (Cucks and abridging everything with 'Traitor' or 'shill'), but beyond that its beyond my ken.

Dammit. I dunno exactly what it means. It's just that I see it every time I read about the on going debate. Oh well.
Back OT not much seems to be happening. Must be first document not to be leaked in its entirety.

[mongrel]

It took me a while to see why i'd been quoted, blame the 5:30 starts to commute
Breaking news though people: The Withdrawal agreement draft text has been agreed- May is holding an emergency Cabinet meeting to essentially flog this for all she's worth to save her political career.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politi...unday_politics

Reportedly too it might include a backstop that leaves us a la Norway indefinitely. Though this is mere Westminster rumour-mongering currently- nothing official. It apparently also may see a border in the Irish Sea. The DUP haven't seen it yet, but have stated if its anything like any of the deals that have been proposed over the last few months or talked about- they won't support her government.

Watching what Cabinet does later will be interesting.

Also anyone suspect Jo Johnsons resignation, and subsequent taking up of the mantle of 'reasonable unifier' is a bid for his candidacy as leader/PM? Bearing in mind most Conservative voters favour a 'young, new MP' for leader over any of the current 'front benchers'- and he technically wasn't too 'front bench'. I kinda feel it could be.

EDIT: Apologies i was wrong indeed- Not an emergency cabinet meeting as reported earlier (It was there i swear!) It turns out now its a series of one on one meetings tonight, between May and each member of her Cabinet, and then Tomorrow a special meeting with them all together.

I suspect she's hoping to use this time to bribe, intimidate, convince, shout at, and potentially prepare a plan if/when any of her usual Cabinet opponents kick up a fuss. One on one too they'll be without peer support from the various remain or leave factions, and outside easy immediate contact. So 'frank' discussions may take place (I.e. Do as i say or you won't get a promotion, i'll leak that time you used expenses to pay for your Childs Birthday bash, I'll give you a knighthood...ohh and or i'll call a general election and lose it), it'll be interesting to see if its going to be enough- to me this implies the agreement text is very much a 'May' one- that kicked up so much opposition from Brexiteers and Remainers alike and thus she needs these extra measures to try and forge a clear path through Cabinet and into Parliament.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politi...mpaign=bbcnews

Interesting discussion on Channel 4 News. There are doubts about this getting through Parliament.

Maybe sneering at callers who have widely shared views isn't the way to win them over.

I mean, go on, explain to me why Remain is a good idea, without using any arguments as to why Brexit is a bad idea.

Sneering? The caller is a product of his conditioning. I'm sure if I smacked a pug puppy with a banana each day he would fear the yellow fruit.
Personally, Brexit has been good for me, and people like me and I recognise that there are others who can articulate a proper Brexit case. But not the lying, cheating leave campaign.

From a working class point of view voting remain would have meant that protections in the workplace, or as the Daily Mail says, 'Brussels red tape' would be maintained.

[Dante Von Hespburg]

Dammit. I dunno exactly what it means. It's just that I see it every time I read about the on going debate. Oh well.
Back OT not much seems to be happening. Must be first document not to be leaked in its entirety.

ahh darn, we shall both remain not in on the joke then alas.

I know! I'm actually quite disappointed, normally the government is a sieve of information, i wonder if they've tattooed this one on Raabs backside or some other measure that discourages easy reading.

Interesting discussion on Channel 4 News. There are doubts about this getting through Parliament.

Ooo cheers mate, tuning in now to see if i can catch anything.

But yeah, i honestly don't even think she'll get it through Cabinet with they or her unscathed, and Parliament- i can't see any deal commanding the needed majority- hence why reportedly one of the 'meaningful vote' amendments will be that in the event of a downvote, Parliament can tell the government to go back and renegotiate and not just 'drop out'- apparently that amendment is likely to pass, despite May's opposition to such a constraint.

[Paggers]

I saw several MPs on BBC before 6pm. As mongrel said it doesn't look like it'll fly in its reported form. The DUP didn't seem too pleased but I'd really like to have heard from Nigel Dodds. Boris was his usual self (not a compliment) whereas Jacob Rees Mogg was his usual polite self. I'm not a fan, but he explains his position quite well. It's clear that members of the ERG will not vote for the reported agreement. If 4 news was as good as you say, I'll watch on +1.

[Dante Von Hespburg]

I saw several MPs on BBC before 6pm. As mongrel said it doesn't look like it'll fly in its reported form. The DUP didn't seem too pleased but I'd really like to have heard from Nigel Dodds. Boris was his usual self (not a compliment) whereas Jacob Rees Mogg was his usual polite self. I'm not a fan, but he explains his position quite well. It's clear that members of the ERG will not vote for the reported agreement. If 4 news was as good as you say, I'll watch on +1.

Ahh interesting and cheers for the run down. It seems then (just watching the commentary clips now) that indeed its not going to be popular for any of the major factions. Also agreed on the Reese-Moggs assessment, i respect that he puts his views across in a reasoned manner, however i take issue with a lot of his pontificating on economic issues, which in fairness are not his forte (and the ERG generally are notoriously poor at producing quality economic analysis- then again in fairness, their job isn't to do that, being more a lobbying group in nature). Though the fact he's a civil and respectful debater puts him in good stead compared to many government front runners.

Back to the hot topic though- indeed the Opposition is lining up to May from all sides:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...-politics-live

From Reese-Moggs-

The leader of the influential ERG, Jacob Rees Mogg, describes the deal as a “middle muddle fiddle fuddle” that is doomed from the start.
“There is a risk we are in 1846 territory,” he tells Channel 4 News, referring to the 19th century split in the Conservative party over the corn laws.

Depending on how May plays this, it could be a complete disaster for her premiership.

And in regards to the contentious Irish question, things like this have been coming in from several places:

It is emerging from reports that Northern Ireland will indeed have deeper and different provisions on customs and regulations than Scotland and the rest of the UK.

That will not please the DUP, Unionists or indeed Scotland and the SNP (Who demand if N.Ireland can get EU access in a different manner, then so should Scotland be able to, leaving England and Wales doing a 'full brexit').

[caratacus]

Ministers called into no 10 individually to go through the document used as a basis for a deal with the EU. So much like schoolboys being called into the Head's office to go through their school report. They will have less than 24 hours to read and absorb a 500 page document with precious little opportunity to discuss in a cabinet meeting. A deal document called Chequers, which they themselves were not involved or consulted upon during its compilation! Even a Thatcher adminstration wouldn't have undertaken that. Is this really how government should operate?

Back to the hot topic though- indeed the Opposition is lining up to May from all sides:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics...-politics-live
Depending on how May plays this, it could be a complete disaster for her premiership.

Has it been anything but if viewed in terms of Brexit alone? What it may well mean however more importantly, is the Conservatives being shunned by a large share of the electrate for years to come, many of these their core voters. Tommorrow is a test for the Tory party, but I fear it has probably already been lost.
David Davis, is quite clear what should happen.

Former Brexit secretary David Davis said: "This is the moment of truth. This is the fork in the road.

"Do we pursue a future as an independent nation or accept EU domination, imprisonment in the customs union and second class status.

"Cabinet and all Conservative MPs should stand up, be counted and say no to this capitulation."