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Thread: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

  1. #461
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    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by Greyblades View Post
    You'd need 326 such people. The only single individual with the sort of autonomy and power to do such a thing alone in britain is appointed by god.
    Nono, it is not about any revolution or usurping power. It was merely about seeing political capital / potential in general mood / public opinion call it whatever you want. And it is not necessary about being populist also. The vote was 52/48 for leave. Now the support for remain might be little higher but probably still around 50-55? No idea. But with time running out, probably more people will switch the position especially if the news and negotiations are not so smoothly going as were originally proclaimed to be..It is like bluffing, not everybody has the nerves to keep poker face in terms of possible big loss.

    I´m merely saying, that in such case. I would not be surprise to see spiking support for remain option and that some politicians might try to use the potential. Even those who are for remain option from beginning. If you feel the support of enough people you can try a lot things of course in democratic ways. And of course this is merely my gaming vision of the system. I´m just observer from EU and really don´t know if there are such politicians, groups with such interest of political wings inside certain parties. Especially when British parliament seems not complete unified behind current direction.. I can just very well imagine it. :-)

    I remember a few situation from our Czech parliament when political parties were trying very hard to get 101 majority from 200 and get cabinet going, there were hard bargaining and persuation of members of parliament from opposition to join, bribery, lot of accusations. Simply a lot of backstage fun....And can only imagine what fun must be there in UK parliament with so many different groups with different interests like "no deal", "soft deal".. :-)
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  2. #462
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    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Just an update on the WTO issue. It seems that Britain is going to have to negotiate rather extensively indeed:

    About 20 members are understood to have opposed the country’s initial proposal, dashing hopes of an unchallenged arrival at the Geneva-based body that governs global trade.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/b...test-ml8dt92pf

    On top of the USA, Russia, NZ and co. One state is Moldova0 who is blocking it due to as i mentioned before the complete incompetence of British diplomacy:

    According to reports by Bloomberg, one of the member states that blocked the process is Moldova which is said to have been frustrated that it was not “listened to” by the UK when it attempted to arrange diplomatic meetings. Corina Cojocaru, Moldova’s economic counselor to the WTO, said she and her team were denied entry to the UK last year when they wanted to discuss general plans for their relationship with the country post-Brexit.

    “I couldn’t get a visa and a diplomatic passport to go to London to negotiate on government procurement,”Ms Cojocaru told Bloomberg. “Nobody listened to us for six to seven months.” She said that it raised concerns that, if diplomats struggled to get visas, it could be extremely difficult for Moldovan suppliers or businesses seeking to work in the UK and mean it is impossible for them to compete with those from countries who are granted visas quickly.

    Read more at: https://inews.co.uk/news/brexit/worl...t-brexit-deal/
    https://inews.co.uk/news/brexit/worl...t-brexit-deal/

    As to the others, its a mixture of power politics (fair) on their part, but also again the complete incompetence of the Conservative government with brexit:

    Moldova was joined by the US, New Zealand, Japan, South Korea, Ukraine and Israel in expressing concerns about the UK plans. The US reportedly said that the UK had failed to provide requested information and updates.

    Read more at: https://inews.co.uk/news/brexit/worl...t-brexit-deal/
    Which as led to this-

    Due to the objections the UK must now give other countries the right to negotiate and demand concessions from the proposed membership, which could take a long time.
    Which is where the issues of this taking potentially years comes into play, especially with states like Argentina now openly saying they'll use brexit as leverage to settle disputes such as the Falklands. While its possible some members of the WTO would be willing to continue to trade with Britain based on outdated arrangements- that's a hope, not a strategy. The likelihood seems to be many will want to negotiate with a economically weaker and in terms of domestic politics, desperate British government to extract far better concessions at the UK's expense.

    The implication here is that this could all have been avoided potentially (Though of course some states would naturally seize the opportunity regardless perhaps) if the UK government had been up to scratch in actually working with potential partners (Not blocking their diplomats access...) and was far more open (Though again domestically that hasn't been the case either).
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  3. #463

    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    “I couldn’t get a visa and a diplomatic passport to go to London to negotiate on government procurement,”Ms Cojocaru told Bloomberg. “Nobody listened to us for six to seven months.” She said that it raised concerns that, if diplomats struggled to get visas, it could be extremely difficult for Moldovan suppliers or businesses seeking to work in the UK and mean it is impossible for them to compete with those from countries who are granted visas quickly.
    Uhhh, wat? Just how idiotic is the current UK government again? What possible justification could there be for this sort of incompetence?

  4. #464

    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by Genghis Skahn View Post
    Uhhh, wat? Just how idiotic is the current UK government again? What possible justification could there be for this sort of incompetence?
    Responsibility for issuing visas moved from the Foreign and Commonwealth Office to the dysfunctional Home Office.


    I see that movement is afoot to draw up a killer amendment that would force any deal to be put to a second referendum.


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics...mons-amendment
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  5. #465
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    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by Genghis Skahn View Post
    Uhhh, wat? Just how idiotic is the current UK government again? What possible justification could there be for this sort of incompetence?
    The current UK government is incredibly idiotic. I think it is fair to say that brexit (Not necessarily the vote itself, but the way it was handled in its aftermath by Leaving voting politicians and the government) is Britan's modern Suez, highlighting at a point when its desperate that we show the world a professional, confident face and score brownie points for creating future trade deals and be taken seriously, that actually we are a spent force on the world stage, incompetent at even achieving what was billed domestically as 'the easiest trade negotiation in history'. The government divided the country directly through its own post-referendum rhetoric and pandering to one small faction within the Conservative party (For instance my parents both voted to leave, but neither wanted the ERG's conception of a low regulation, low tax model)- Though there is also the point that arguably the minute the referendum was called to 'fix' Conservative party issues and given its limited time-scale it would rupture the stability of British politics regardless of even the most competent administration- though this structuralist view i believe is something that could still be somewhat mitigated if indeed the party in Government was firstly competent and secondly not in essentially melt-down.

    It then has allowed brexit to consume the domestic agenda while Britain quite frankly crumbles, soaring private debt undermining the stability of any potential recovery exacerbated by the poor implementation of austerity, the Conservative efforts to actively cover up the complete mess they've made (UC impact reports being repressed) and through merely concentrating on brexit domestically (and doing that poorly) they somehow forgot that actually.... There's the EU out there to also get a deal with, plus the WTO and the navigation that will be required both with them, but also in creating bilateral arrangements with powers significantly stronger than us (Bearing in mind again that the domestic economic situation is actually pretty dire- the 'record' employment figures being a false narrative due to every year pending some disaster technically bringing 'record employment' and worse for the simple fact that its one of the few times in history where due to government policy, work just isn't paying- with record increases to 'working poverty').

    So with that context, your spot on i think mate . I don't think there is a justification- i think at a time when we exactly need to bend over backwards on the world stage to accommodate powers great and small, to show Britain as an open place for business- the Conservatives have failed miserably (At what traditionally they are supposed to be good at).

    Quote Originally Posted by mongrel View Post
    Responsibility for issuing visas moved from the Foreign and Commonwealth Office to the dysfunctional Home Office.


    I see that movement is afoot to draw up a killer amendment that would force any deal to be put to a second referendum.


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics...mons-amendment
    Stands to reason then- from one department that was effectively castrated, to the other which is a mess (The source of the mess being May's tenure i would argue).

    Interesting to see what will happen to this amendment, also more importantly what Corbyn will do. I suspect that he's holding out for a General Election which i think most Conservative pundits at least agree is in the bag for him if it happens sooner than the 'official' time-scale provides (Whether his party agrees with them is another matter ).
    Last edited by Dante Von Hespburg; October 27, 2018 at 12:35 PM.
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  6. #466
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    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    In short: UK is falling over its own feet with this kind of Brexit negotiations.
    Cause tomorrow is a brand-new day
    And tomorrow you'll be on your way
    Don't give a damn about what other people say
    Because tomorrow is a brand-new day


  7. #467
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    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Apparently indeed. The thing is, i'm not entirely sure WHY its so incompetent. One of the privileges i currently enjoy living the (decadent - two tins of beans a day!) Postgrad life in London is we have a LOT of talks from MP's, Civil Servants and Government representatives from both Britain and the EU that we can attend. Most of whom all sound when questioned at least theoretically competent and decent people (There have been exceptions). Now some British MP's and officials may be the best self-publicists ever , but i suspect there really is a paralysis at the highest levels of the government and a very 'party first' attitude, and particularly a 'Faction within party first' mantra that is essentially screwing us all over to not put a too finer point on it.

    Or it could truly be that all the individuals of any consequence to brexit or good governance genuinely are crap. Though that's surely a tall order....right?
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  8. #468
    Morticia Iunia Bruti's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    ^^

    It seems to me that Brexit led Tories into a new war of roses, everybody want to be king, no one take a step back to serve only.

    Tin of baked beens with bacon, sausages sounds good, but only with toast done by both sides.
    Cause tomorrow is a brand-new day
    And tomorrow you'll be on your way
    Don't give a damn about what other people say
    Because tomorrow is a brand-new day


  9. #469
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    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by Marcus_Iunius_Brutus_Caepio View Post
    ^^

    It seems to me that Brexit led Tories into a new war of roses, everybody want to be king, no one take a step back to serve only.

    Tin of baked beens with bacon, sausages sounds good, but only with toast done by both sides.
    Indeed i think that's spot on, though with the caveat that no one wants the throne while brexit itself is happening, May by all rights is 'safe' simply because no one wants to be tarred by the outcome or even process of it.

    Haha with you there..right up until the toast- One side only please!
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  10. #470

    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    The country is stuck in a situation where will is required but the ruling party is primarily unwilling, those willing were rendered unacceptable to the party through infighting. Those who are acceptable were either idiots or dont want the job.

    Its incompetent because its lead by an incompetent, one who bumbled her way into power through being the last man standing who didnt lose thier nerve or get stabbed in the back. She's a remainer, she has no personal desire to follow the referendum's marching orders than the bare minimum and after the snap election had fatally wounded her career she lingers in the top seat playing prime minister as long as she can.
    Last edited by Greyblades; October 27, 2018 at 01:39 PM.
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  11. #471
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    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by Greyblades View Post
    The country is stuck in a situation where will is required but the ruling party is primarily unwilling, those willing were rendered unacceptable to the party through infighting. Those who are acceptable were either idiots or dont want the job.

    Its incompetent because its lead by an incompetent, one who bumbled her way into power through being the last man standing who didnt lose thier nerve or get stabbed in the back. She's a remainer, she has no personal desire to follow the referendum's marching orders than the bare minimum and after the snap election had her career fatally wounded she lingers in the top seat playing prime minister as long as she can.
    This though is where the issue surrounding the governments early rhetoric post-referendum comes into play though, and bearing in mind it was May herself who allowed and took up the 'hard brexiteer faction' line of 'Traitors and 'Will of the people' lines, that instead of working to build a sustainable support base after the vote win (which in reality is a necessity) and bring the various groups together, both within party, but also in Parliament and the electorate, instead actively polarized the country further. Its ensured though that even if a moron like Boris was in charge, or a more serious Leave support like Reese-Moggs, we would still be in the same situation due to this division. Particularly as both 'Remain' and 'Leave' MP's and supporters are themselves divided into factions over brexit.

    I agree wholeheartedly with you on the assessment of May, her abilities and how she got the place. But i don't believe that she's the innate cause of this, nor is she trying to aim for Remain- and i say this as a remain voter myself, but there are far easier ways given parliamentary arithmetic and lack of 'sustainable' support for brexit (The issue when being lazy as the brexiteers and government did and relying on 'the will of the people' to legitimize such a close vote is that you lack sustainability down the line due to not even attempting to build consensus or support) she could quite easily have allied with the larger Conservative Remainer faction, instead of as she has done throughout the process- relied on and pandered to Leave voting MP factions- its only recently she's ceased that and gone for her own plan- that has alienated her from both leave and remain. So i don't see it, particularly prior to the botched GE her support for Leave over remain is quite clear- as she effectively ditched remain-leaning MP's in policy and rhetoric for a more hard-line perspective- if we're generous it was an attempt to keep the Conservative party from splitting. This put her way past the position of being a 'unifying' candidate as she effectively became their spokesperson up to a point.

    Fully agreed though that the she's holding onto the PMship for as long as she can- though this is arguably a very long time given both Leave and Remain Tory MP's reluctance to challenge her, either due to a lack of numbers or as no one wants the job. Also i think there is a Conservative interest in keeping her, as some Leave and Remain Tories have said- a leadership battle, sooner or later leads to a GE for a mandate, and this is something that particularly with brexit either still looming, or in its immediate shadow, an event the Conservatives are not confident yet of being able to win and having no candidate to compete with Corbyn on the campaign trail- The context for this is currently out of Boris or May- the country prefers her, but also out of her Cabinet, Moggs, Davis and co- none of them score highly enough to be 'electorally viable' and all are divisive and tarred with brexit- instead the option that is most popular is a 'new Conservative candidate'- the issue being, currently there are no new Conservative candidates on offer. So we're stuck indeed with Zombie May and a Zombie government.

    One article on a recent ICM poll (article originally from Guardian)- For all intents and purposes May is 'best placed' to lead the Conservatives into the next election- being better than the five nearest candidates to the public...and that's an issue as she's not particularly well regarded.
    https://gulfnews.com/news/europe/uk/...ests-1.2269515

    Thus there is a serious political crisis heading the Tories way, so again to give May some....credit may be too strong a word, she's 'staying' to avoid Conservative defeat and potential disintegration- however, sadly for us this is the essence of 'party over country'- and thus we suffer indeed from incompetence in all areas.
    Last edited by Dante Von Hespburg; October 27, 2018 at 02:06 PM.
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  12. #472
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    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    In fairness to the UK, the Moldavian flub was in part the fault of the Modavians. They did not mark the visa requests to be tied to a specific reason such as the GPA issue, so normal channels were followed. Thus the delay. Of course in politics any excuse can be used for any reason.

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    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by NorseThing View Post
    In fairness to the UK, the Moldavian flub was in part the fault of the Modavians. They did not mark the visa requests to be tied to a specific reason such as the GPA issue, so normal channels were followed. Thus the delay. Of course in politics any excuse can be used for any reason.
    I agree that any excuse can and will be used in Politics. But the British government can't wiggle here i think. Its not the denial of Visa (Mistakes happen i'm sure)- its the fact that after it, for 6 months communications from the Moldavian government about the issue itself and trade were completely ignored by the British government.
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  14. #474

    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by Marcus_Iunius_Brutus_Caepio View Post
    In short: UK is falling over its own feet with this kind of Brexit negotiations.
    It's getting beyond farcical. We are supposed to have a Budget this afternoon, but the line is that if there is no deal, it would be shelved and an emergeny Budget imposed. Well why bother? What a way to run the country.
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  15. #475
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    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by mongrel View Post
    It's getting beyond farcical. We are supposed to have a Budget this afternoon, but the line is that if there is no deal, it would be shelved and an emergeny Budget imposed. Well why bother? What a way to run the country.
    Agreed here, though also its worse than that, the term being bandied around now is if we don't get a 'good deal'. This is a significant 'tightening' of the language- Tories being interviewed by the BBC currently are at pains to slip that particular caveat in.

    A 'good deal' is of course incredibly subjective, and bearing in mind the governments 'ambitious' expectations of the brexit deal, impossible. Even the most ardent brexiteers admit that at least in the short term, the UK will economically take a hit while we re-orientate and re-structure, now with the WTO issue its likely this will take even longer.

    Thus the 'end of austerity' being bandied around is pure political spin, as the scenario they've given when austerity will end 'A good brexit deal and no negative impact on the UK economy, is non-achievable, i suspect its more to try and build domestic support in the case of a premature GE - Considering for instance the 'save the high street' initiative is reportedly merely a temporary cutting of business rates- that's a political policy, not an economic one as it addresses none of the real issues (Uncompetitiveness, long term costs vs digital platforms etc) and instead is crumbs thrown to a 'vote for us in the coming year' agenda.

    Its essentially i suspect a 'set up' to distance the Conservatives from austerity's effects and the political impact- this way the narrative changes into 'we would have ended it, if not for brexit' and so it takes austerity from being a party political choice where the Conservatives are the bad guys (Something that Corbyn's gains have been made on) and is attempting to put it into the 'not our fault- we were going to end it, LOOK!, blame brexit and the EU'. Which potentially would give them the political capital if they pull it off to again narrowly escape a Corbyn government come a premature GE.

    So again i think its not just they are incompetent at brexit, but they are also using brexit to essentially cover up, and 'fix' party political issues and provide a further few years cover for their domestic economic failings and mistakes.
    Last edited by Dante Von Hespburg; October 29, 2018 at 09:23 AM.
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  16. #476
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    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dante Von Hespburg View Post
    Agreed here, though also its worse than that, the term being bandied around now is if we don't get a 'good deal'. This is a significant 'tightening' of the language- Tories being interviewed by the BBC currently are at pains to slip that particular caveat in.

    A 'good deal' is of course incredibly subjective, and bearing in mind the governments 'ambitious' expectations of the brexit deal, impossible. Even the most ardent brexiteers admit that at least in the short term, the UK will economically take a hit while we re-orientate and re-structure, now with the WTO issue its likely this will take even longer.

    Thus the 'end of austerity' being bandied around is pure political spin, as the scenario they've given when austerity will end 'A good brexit deal and no negative impact on the UK economy, is non-achievable, i suspect its more to try and build domestic support in the case of a premature GE - Considering for instance the 'save the high street' initiative is reportedly merely a temporary cutting of business rates- that's a political policy, not an economic one as it addresses none of the real issues (Uncompetitiveness, long term costs vs digital platforms etc) and instead is crumbs thrown to a 'vote for us in the coming year' agenda.

    Its essentially i suspect a 'set up' to distance the Conservatives from austerity's effects and the political impact- this way the narrative changes into 'we would have ended it, if not for brexit' and so it takes austerity from being a party political choice where the Conservatives are the bad guys (Something that Corbyn's gains have been made on) and is attempting to put it into the 'not our fault- we were going to end it, LOOK!, blame brexit and the EU'. Which potentially would give them the political capital if they pull it off to again narrowly escape a Corbyn government come a premature GE.

    So again i think its not just they are incompetent at brexit, but they are also using brexit to essentially cover up, and 'fix' party political issues and provide a further few years cover for their domestic economic failings and mistakes.
    You are probably right on this Dante, given that Uk borrowing has actually increased so I can't see where this extra cash is coming from. Of course an alternative way of looking at it is a blatant move by a chancellor who is more than a little Remainer in his views. "Look at these nice things I'm doing, but hey! if we leave the EU without a deal, I'll scrap it and punish you all very hard." Although I see within the past two hours, No 10 has attempted to contradict this message coming out of no 11 next door. Everybody expects things wil probaby get a little rough, so why not wait a few months instead of splashing the cash! That is unless the Conservaties are seeing an election ahead?

    End of austerity... utter tosh. One of the things which has been leaked (leaked???) is a reduction in business rates for the retail sector. Many towns in the Country have streets with an abundance of empty shop units. Tax measures will help, but internet shopping and out of town retail malls also have had a big impact. But a big factor that many disregard, is that the average Joe has a lot less disposable income they had 20 years ago. Nothing in this budget will change that significantly.
    Last edited by caratacus; October 29, 2018 at 11:24 AM.

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    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by caratacus View Post
    You are probably right on this Dante, given that Uk borrowing has actually increased so I can't see where this extra cash is coming from. Of course an alternative way of looking at it is a blatant move by a chancellor who is more than a little Remainer in his views. "Look at these nice things I'm doing, but hey! if we leave the EU without a deal, I'll scrap it and punish you all very hard." Although I see within the past two hours, No 10 has attempted to contradict this message coming out of no 11 next door. Everybody expects things wil probaby get a little rough, so why not wait a few months instead of splashing the cash! That is unless the Conservaties are seeing an election ahead?

    End of austerity... utter tosh. One of the things which has been leaked (leaked???) is a reduction in business rates for the retail sector. Many towns in the Country have streets with an abundance of empty shop units. Tax measures will help, but internet shopping and out of town retail malls also have had a big impact. But a big factor that many disregard, is that the average Joe has a lot less disposable income they had 20 years ago. Nothing in this budget will change that significantly.
    That's exactly what i would like to know. I watched the full speech from Hammond, but have yet to properly read through the details. However the thing that struck me is that suddenly there are relatively large sums being thrown around... and wasted. Nearly everything was on a 'one off' basis or for the next year'- and all were with the caveat as mentioned earlier dependent on a 'good deal'. It was not a serious economic budget to tackle the current problems. It was an electioneering plaster- schools struggling now? Here's a £50,000 one off payment for each secondary school made available in the next year (No fix though to the funding squeeze itself). Needing to change our economy to a high-skilled one? Here's an endowment of £140 million worth of fellowships to attract foreign talent (Nothing on how to actually improve the lives and prospects of people coming up though). It essentially all was like that- its a patch to hope the public will forget the mess they've made and so take the heat off Corbyn clipping at their heels.

    I'm no fan of austerity as i think we all know by now , but i'm quite concerned actually, that any wiggle room austerity has created- is being blown on non-economic orientated electoral bribes and short-term patch ups ready to fight a potential GE (Particularly as Corbyn would rather that then a second referendum if her brexit bill is voted down, and from what May has said, so would she- by ruling out a second referendum, but not a GE), or as you fairly say- to build support for the 'Chequers plan' or whatever domestically by getting some public approval and waggling a carrot....alas the carrot is rotten and a waste, but their hoping the appearance at least is nice.

    Absolutely spot on i feel about austerity and the business rates 'leak' (indeed ), its exactly what i think we're saying in that this isn't a budget designed to do a budgets job and improve the economy, fix its problems or even provide a sustainable short-gap. Its just throwing large figures (though actually comparatively small given the last 10 years of cuts) in one off payments to places that different electoral groups will appreciate. The sad thing is their not even trying to hide it- with the clear statement that post-brexit 'everything is up for review and change'. Thus from an actual economic perspective, given the budgets time-frame is a few months then and the 'one off' payments announced mostly have delays or are 'for the year'- its a pointless budget that literally need not exist at this time- if not for the political need- which is its sole purpose. Technically, and i think your right indeed- post-brexit all of it can be scrapped, and the blame for that (unlike with the previous budgets u-turn on taxing the self employed more) can be safely applied to brexit/the EU to avoid most of the fall out.
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  18. #478

    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46056337

    Quote Originally Posted by BBC News"
    Arron Banks faces Brexit referendum spending probe

    The National Crime Agency is investigating Arron Banks and his Leave.EU campaign for alleged offences committed at the 2016 EU referendum.


    Mr Banks and another senior campaign figure, Liz Bilney, were referred to the agency by the Electoral Commission.


    The watchdog said it suspected money given to the campaign came "from impermissible sources".


    Mr Banks denied any wrongdoing and said he welcomed the National Crime Agency investigation.


    He said he was "confident that a full and frank investigation will finally put an end to the ludicrous allegations levelled against me and my colleagues".


    "There is no evidence of any wrongdoing from the companies I own. I am a UK taxpayer and I have never received any foreign donations. The Electoral Commission has produced no evidence to the contrary," he added in a statement.


    He claimed the Electoral Commission had acted "under intense political pressure from anti-Brexit supporters".


    The BBC's EU referendum special report
    Brexit: All you need to know
    Read the full Electoral Commission report
    The Electoral Commission investigation focused on £2m reported to have been loaned to Better for the Country, which ran Leave.EU, by Mr Banks and his group of insurance companies.


    It also examined a further £6m reported to have been given to the organisation, on behalf of Leave.EU, by Mr Banks alone.


    The commission's legal chief, Bob Posner said: "We have reasonable grounds to suspect money given to Better for the Country came from impermissible sources and that Mr Banks and Ms Bilney, the responsible person for Leave.EU, knowingly concealed the true circumstances under which this money was provided.


    "This is significant because at least £2.9m of this money was used to fund referendum spending and donations during the regulated period of the EU referendum.


    "Our investigation has unveiled evidence that suggests criminal offences have been committed which fall beyond the remit of the Commission.


    "This is why we have handed our evidence to the NCA to allow them to investigate and take any appropriate law enforcement action. This is now a criminal investigation."


    He said the financial transactions investigated by the Commission had investigated included companies incorporated in Gibraltar and the Isle of Man, which were "beyond the reach" of the watchdog.


    The National Crime Agency, which is able to investigate across international borders, said electoral law offences would "not routinely fall" within its remit.


    But it added: "The nature of the necessary inquiries and the potential for offences to have been committed other than under electoral law lead us to consider an NCA investigation appropriate in this instance.


    "This is now a live investigation, and we are unable to discuss any operational detail."


    Leave.EU was a separate campaign to the official Vote Leave organisation.


    Under UK law, loans and donations to registered campaigners can only come from permissible sources, which essentially excludes overseas or foreign funding.


    The UK's referendum in June 2016 was about whether the UK should Remain or Leave the European Union. The result was that the UK voted by 51.9% to 48.1% to leave the EU. This departure is due to happen on 29 March 2019.
    If the God of all Brexiteers, Arron Banks and his campaign are found to be criminally fraudulent, surely that invalidates the referendum result? Sorry! What was I thinking! Of course it doesn't! Leave means leave, Brexit means Brexit, and it's OK to be a criminal so long as you voted out...

  19. #479
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    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheLeft View Post
    If the God of all Brexiteers, Arron Banks and his campaign are found to be criminally fraudulent, surely that invalidates the referendum result? Sorry! What was I thinking! Of course it doesn't! Leave means leave, Brexit means Brexit, and it's OK to be a criminal so long as you voted out...
    No it doesn't. It means that Arron Banks and his campaign will be dealt with impartially by the courts. If they are found guilty then they will be sentenced according to the law. Endless bleating by either side will not alter/overturn the referendum result. Only another referendum will do that. The UK Parliament derogated responsibility, rightly or wrongly to the people of the UK in the form of a referendum. I seriously doubt that the courts would overturn this. If the Remain side wants another referendum then I'd suggest that they lobby MPs into doing so via a Bill or, even better, a wrecking Amendment to the 'meaningful vote' on whatever deal the PM does or doesn't get. Parliament is sovereign (1 of the plus points for leavers I believe) and so this would be the ideal forum in which to attempt to force a 2nd referendum vote.
    Also, I notice it is not the official leave campaign. This probably means it'll not invalidate the result as it is akin to me doing the same thing, albeit with less money. Hopefully a member who understands the actual legal position can advise. Possibly mongrel.
    Last edited by Paggers; November 01, 2018 at 12:33 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mongrel View Post
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  20. #480

    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paggers View Post
    No it doesn't. It means that Arron Banks and his campaign will be dealt with impartially by the courts. If they are found guilty then they will be sentenced according to the law. Endless bleating by either side will not alter/overturn the referendum result. Only another referendum will do that. The UK Parliament derogated responsibility, rightly or wrongly to the people of the UK in the form of a referendum. I seriously doubt that the courts would overturn this. If the Remain side wants another referendum then I'd suggest that they lobby MPs into doing so via a Bill or, even better, a wrecking Amendment to the 'meaningful vote' on whatever deal the PM does or doesn't get. Parliament is sovereign (1 of the plus points for leavers I believe) and so this would be the ideal forum in which to attempt to force a 2nd referendum vote.
    Also, I notice it is not the official leave campaign. This probably means it'll not invalidate the result as it is akin to me doing the same thing, albeit with less money. Hopefully a member who understands the actual legal position can advise. Possibly mongrel.
    I would say Paggers is right. In my view, the real 'crime' was Cam moron entering into a rerendum without doing any meaningful consultation, research or impacting.This meant that there was no meaningful debate. Banks's alleged crimes is an entirely separate matter, its down to ( a sovereign)Parliament to do what is suggested in the thread's title. What it may do is influence the debate in the event that there is a second referendum.
    Last edited by mongrel; November 01, 2018 at 03:27 PM.
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