Thread: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

  1. #3101

    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by Greyblades View Post
    ...In what universe do you live where May had a too hard brexit positon? Did you read anything at all on the content of Chequers? Did you not see the complete uturn from "no deal is better than a bad deal" to asking for a extantion because parliament wouldnt permit her complete disaster of a deal?
    That's actually the opposite of what I said.
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  2. #3102

    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Seems to be exactly what you said, what else but chequers would count as her deal being voted down for not being hard enough. How you think her behavior between the election and chequers was a hard brexit position at all beyond blatantly hollow rhetoric is baffling, let alone how it could be softened further by your liking.
    Last edited by Greyblades; October 23, 2019 at 08:50 AM.
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  3. #3103

    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    The reason why the ERG voted for this crap deal , but not May's. Money.


    https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...P=share_btn_tw
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  4. #3104

    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by Greyblades View Post
    Seems to be exactly what you said, what else but chequers would count as her deal being voted down for not being hard enough. How you think her behavior between the election and chequers was a hard brexit position at all beyond blatantly hollow rhetoric is baffling, let alone how it could be softened further by your liking.
    I didn't say it was too hard, I said it was a hard Brexit, since it proposed leaving the EEA and at some future point, leaving the customs union somehow, but it wasn't enough for the ERG. Of course, it was a logically impossible position to leave the customs union and not have a hard Irish border, so what it amounted to was pretending to leave the customs union but not actually doing so.

    But what's interesting is that the ERG had said it was voting against Chequers because they agreed with the DUP about the Irish "backstop" and it was all about preserving the Union intact... and yet now we have an even deeper rift between NI and the rest of the UK but somehow they're fine with it. What's going on? Is Corbyn right and it was all about sweeping away workers' rights, lowering standards and creating sweatshop Britain so that their real objection was always to those guarantees, or was it that they were so determined to get rid of May that they would have voted down anything she had come up with?
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  5. #3105

    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Breaking news on the Beeb.................

    "If Parliament refuses to allow Brexit to happen... and decides to delay everything until January or possibly longer... the bill will have to be pulled" - UK PM Boris Johnson confirms he will call a general election if his Brexit bill is rejected

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-p...ments-50136270


    He needs the support of two-thirds of MPs - at least 434, to hold an election or a vote of no confidence against his own government. Time to open my Brexit prepper supply of popcorn.
    Last edited by mongrel; October 24, 2019 at 06:34 AM.
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  6. #3106
    Muizer's Avatar member 3519
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    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Ah, that quote is 2 days old?
    "Lay these words to heart, Lucilius, that you may scorn the pleasure which comes from the applause of the majority. Many men praise you; but have you any reason for being pleased with yourself, if you are a person whom the many can understand?" - Lucius Annaeus Seneca -

  7. #3107

    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by Muizer View Post
    Ah, that quote is 2 days old?
    I can't keep up.

    Still..............

    Boris has ditched the 31st Oct deadline, he wants an election for Christmas. He deserves coal as he has been very naughty this year. Perhaps imported, since the Tories ran down the coal industry. Wasn't he supposed to be looking for a suitable ditch?


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-50174402
    Last edited by mongrel; October 24, 2019 at 12:55 PM.
    Absolutley Barking, Mudpit Mutt Former Patron: Garbarsardar

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  8. #3108
    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    In 2016, the British people approved an imaginary Brexit .They never sought that Northern Ireland-part of the UK-would have to stay in the EU.
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
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    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
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  9. #3109
    Dante Von Hespburg's Avatar Sloth's Inferno
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    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    So to make everything that much more amusing. The Government who have been plugging the line of 'give us an election' 'man up' etc in an attempt to get a GE (That is knife-edged, particularly as more details have been emerging about the May-Boris deal), has just rejected an offer from the Lib-dems and SNP for a General Election...

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a9172901.html

    The two smaller parties joined forces to give Johnson the opportunity to not only have an earlier GE on 9th December (Boris wants the 12th), but also to amend the fixed term parliament act so that it would merely require a majority (not 2/3rds) of the House to support it- essentially a sensible way of bypassing the issues we have had recently.

    The Government has absolutely rejected this offer for an early GE, citing that they wanted to give parliament more time to scrutinize the new Brexit deal (Despite them currently preventing that by putting the whole issue on pause- their own decision, literally there is no need to wait for the EU to offer an extension first).

    I think this all goes to show, this is not about a Government wanting a GE- i think they are (rightfully) as terrified of going to the polls as Labour are (The Lib-dems and SNP of course are chomping at the bit because their set to make gains). Its ruined their optics of 'Parliament vs people' as their rejecting the best chance to 'take it to our collective bosses' (A Boris quote from Friday) and to boot a way of fixing the Fixed Term parliament act- We're getting to levels of ridiculousness now.

    EDIT: Cleverly was just on speaking for the Government too and rubbishing the idea- the Governments new defense (equally as weak) is that this would be open to amendments by the opposition, such as getting rid of the new requirements for voter ID or allowing 16 year olds to vote.

    These only matter if the amendments have the numbers to get through...they do not. The Lib-dems who are normally supportive of 16 year olds voting have stated they would not back any such amendment as they fear it would delay the election sorting it out. The more cynical reason is that currently allowing 16 year olds to vote swings things greatly to the 'Oh Jeremey Corbyn' camp in polling, which may see the expected Lib-dem gains take a bashing.

    Regardless though, its the weakest excuse to cover up a failed political strategy you could use. Providing the votes are not there (and they are not- to get 16 year olds voting you would need nearly every single opposition MP, DUP and Independent voting in favour), there is literally 0 issues here.
    Last edited by Dante Von Hespburg; October 27, 2019 at 05:33 AM.
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  10. #3110
    Muizer's Avatar member 3519
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    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    EU agrees extension to 31st of January 2020

    Bring on the elections (and the popcorn)!
    "Lay these words to heart, Lucilius, that you may scorn the pleasure which comes from the applause of the majority. Many men praise you; but have you any reason for being pleased with yourself, if you are a person whom the many can understand?" - Lucius Annaeus Seneca -

  11. #3111
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    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    hehe you beat me to it Muzzier, I was spending time in 3K/Saga threads making response there. So looks like EU is again cleverly putting cards on the table to force Uk to solve its internal problems. No deal is off table now, Bojo wonderfully is taking no hits for his do or die (come on, I was expecting him to be for clown now...but british people..okey. ) and Labours now losing argument against elections.... Really popcorn time

    https://twitter.com/guyverhofstadt/s...77686539345922
    Last edited by Daruwind; October 28, 2019 at 06:54 AM.
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  12. #3112
    caratacus's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    After reports that both the LibDems and SNP are prepared to back a December General election subject to an agreement with the Conservative government over the date. Labour have now finally agreed subject to involving EU nationals resident in the UK! THe SNP have just backed this as an amendment to an election bill debated this afternoon.

    Just shows whose interests the opposition parties are representing. First they ignore the refrendum vote as long as they can, and when another election is needed because this situation cannot go on any further, they want to cancel out the vote for Brexit candidates using the votes of EU nationals Nothing is guaranteed to ratchet up feeling in what is already a very turbulent matter, than that.

    Labour to back early general election

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-50221856
    Not to exhaust Brexit and Civil War comparisons, but it is comparable to Charles I enlisting the services of Irish troops in 1643 and early 1644, to fight on his side against the English parliament and those opposed to his perceived closeness to Catholicism.
    Last edited by caratacus; October 29, 2019 at 10:43 AM.

  13. #3113
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    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    And don´t forget lowering voting age to 16 Labours gonna put forward such amendment.
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  14. #3114
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    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    In other news, for the second time, a least a thousand coins meant to commemorate Brexit are now being melted down after the three month extension had been accepted.


    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...wn?srnd=brexit
    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-50215983...e=news_central
    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-50215983...e=news_central
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics...to-be-recycled

  15. #3115
    caratacus's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by RandomPerson2000 View Post
    In other news, for the second time, a least a thousand coins meant to commemorate Brexit are now being melted down after the three month extension had been accepted.
    The words are as vacuous as the head of the person who commisioned this to be done. But hey! it's alright the metal will at least be used to mint these instead;
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Royal Mint launches Wallace and Gromit 50p coin
    https://www.yourmoney.com/investing/...omit-50p-coin/
    The Royal Mint has launched a Wallace and Gromit 50p coin to mark 30 years since the famous duo first hit British screens.
    I would have used it to make medals for politicians that actually do as they promise.
    Last edited by caratacus; October 29, 2019 at 02:59 PM.

  16. #3116
    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Fascinating finding, apparently schizophrenic.Apparently...


    Poll shows growing hindsight regret on leaving EU…but a 16% Tory lead in a general election Brexit referendum should never have been called, say majority of voters
    Asked to consider the difficulties the government has had in reaching an agreement, 57% of UK adults surveyed said that they believed it would have been better not to have had a public vote in June 2016.
    This compares with 29% of voters who believe it was right to hold the referendum on whether the UK should stay in or leave the EU.
    Despite this, the poll gives the Tories under Boris Johnson, who led the campaign to leave, a commanding 16-point lead over Labour, which opposed leaving the EU in the referendum.
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
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    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
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  17. #3117
    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Lisbon, yesterday, Web Summit 2019. Michel Barnier, "Not even Farage can explain the benefits of Brexit to me"

    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
    Charles Péguy

    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
    Thomas Piketty

  18. #3118
    Praeses
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    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    Lisbon, yesterday, Web Summit 2019. Michel Barnier, "Not even Farage can explain the benefits of Brexit to me"
    Yes the Brexit narrative is dominated by lies.

    Its true the UK has surrendered much of its sovereignty to Europe, and the EU "democracy" is very flawed, but certainly not more flawed than Westminster.

    There are a lot of personal and economic benefits for UK citizens as members of the EU, and many penalties for leaving. Politicians love to blame others for their country's woes, and this is a perfect example.

    The City has run Britain since 1688. Bankers and merchants choose the kings, most of the governments and run the place as a convenient venue for their financial empires. If Brexit suits them it will happen and if it doesn't it will not. The rest of the issue will be politicians manoeuvring to place blame for the fallout on one another.
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  19. #3119
    Muizer's Avatar member 3519
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    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    Yes the Brexit narrative is dominated by lies.

    Its true the UK has surrendered much of its sovereignty to Europe, and the EU "democracy" is very flawed, but certainly not more flawed than Westminster.

    There are a lot of personal and economic benefits for UK citizens as members of the EU, and many penalties for leaving. Politicians love to blame others for their country's woes, and this is a perfect example.

    The City has run Britain since 1688. Bankers and merchants choose the kings, most of the governments and run the place as a convenient venue for their financial empires. If Brexit suits them it will happen and if it doesn't it will not. The rest of the issue will be politicians manoeuvring to place blame for the fallout on one another.

    Politicians love to blame others? How about voters? Politicians at least have a good reason to want to blame others: they are accountable. Voters blaming their politicians otoh is entirely gratuitous. There's some truth in the saying that "Every nation gets the government it deserves", especially in democracies. If people feel they are poorly represented, they should take a good look in the mirror first.
    "Lay these words to heart, Lucilius, that you may scorn the pleasure which comes from the applause of the majority. Many men praise you; but have you any reason for being pleased with yourself, if you are a person whom the many can understand?" - Lucius Annaeus Seneca -

  20. #3120
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    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by Muizer View Post
    Politicians love to blame others? How about voters? Politicians at least have a good reason to want to blame others: they are accountable. Voters blaming their politicians otoh is entirely gratuitous. There's some truth in the saying that "Every nation gets the government it deserves", especially in democracies. If people feel they are poorly represented, they should take a good look in the mirror first.
    Politicians place blame on one another tactically even when they themselves are to blame: there's very little real accountability. I make the point to emphasise the different agendas of the leaders and the led. Are you claiming politicians apportion blame fairly?

    While there are democratic elements in the Westminster system (some heavily moderated trial by jury, payment for government service) the UK is definitely not a democracy but a constitutional monarchy.

    British people have been groping toward fairer and more representative government for many centuries. They bare definitely far from perfect, with bizarre elements like the FPTP voting system and hereditary monarchy with built in religious bigotry. Politicians are putting a lot of effort into preserving these systems for the benefits that accrue to politicians rather than expressing the will of the people.

    They also mislead their people: Cameron's idiot choice to put Britain's EU membership on the line was shockingly ill informed and his gamble has backfired so badly it has put decades of prosperity at risk.

    In this context the people have been misled into poor choices, and had poor choices foisted on them dishonestly. While you can blame them for not accepting responsibility they are in fact still fettered to a degree, an their lack o responsibility is in way more egregious than their leaders actively misleading them.
    Jatte lambastes Calico Rat

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