Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

[Muizer]

EDIT: props to Muzier, I left in middle of writing so he beated me

Via Guardian I got to read No.10 point of view of current situation and it is nice reading https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/1...-negotiations/



And I was just Wow. Just imagining German Leopard Tank crew taking selfies on Picadelli Square () as part of EU police force to keep order in UK ...like Scotland fighting independence in William Wallace style (Freeeeeedom!!!! ) Brexiteers (sounds almost like musketeers ) brawling with remainers and Queen taking Tea all over this (hope nobody gets mad, had no idea to put there). Where Hitler and Napoleon failed....Bojo might be successful! From comments looks like Cumming himself wrote it? Maybe...

I can't believe they're still peddling that line how the Benn act has fatally undermined the UK's bargaining position. The only reason a somewhat informed/intelligent person could support such a narrative is in bad faith: they know it's a lie, but one worth telling to further the cause. They really are taking the voters for fools, aren't they?

[Daruwind]

It is probably blame game for future. Blame on home front remainers, opposition ...to win elections and restore majority and kill off brexit party because if there are two brexit parties, the stronger one will probably get all votes in the end. Why vote for weaker brexit party when the other is stronger and has more power to deliver. Blame EU, other countries like there is no tomorrow to again gain political points in case of any bad development...any economical problems.

The true issue here is, Bojo is basically riding populist wave. All he wants is to have slightest majority, nothing more. Not caring about other states not caring about possible divisions in UK public....like Scotland independence.

I can even imagine that in case of no deal, when Bojo will finally return to the table to negotiate with EU about future trades and everything, that after getting big "piss off" sign he would spin narrative that bad,hurt EU is just making vengeance and not caring about proud UK people. Once again, this is like setup how started "V like Vendetta" movie. It is like half of UK is no longer caring about rational discussion, facts but just wanting to win because emotions. Big emotions wake more emotions, this brexit question is really far from being done. Problem is, it is self inflicted mess and a few people has gut to admit that some their long past decision was wrong.

[Morticia Iunia Bruti]

A No 10 source who said the German chancellor Angela Merkel’s demands for Northern Ireland after Brexit had made a deal “essentially impossible” has sparked furious exchanges on social media between prominent politicians.

Donald Tusk, the president of the European council, criticised Johnson directly, tweeting it was not about “winning some stupid blame game”.


Citing the contrast between Johnson’s repeated assurances that he wants a deal, and the substance of his proposals, Tusk said: “You don’t want a deal, you don’t want an extension, you don’t want to revoke. Quo vadis? [Where are you going?]”
Scotland’s first minister, Nicola Sturgeon, was also unimpressed.

The Brexit party leader, Nigel Farage, struck a strident tone, suggesting the UK now had a choice between “a clean break Brexit” or “to stay in a new militarised empire”.


The Brexit party’s recent party political broadcast included a section that heavily implied the withdrawal agreement negotiated between Theresa May and EU, upon which it said Boris Johnson would base his deal, signed the country up for military cooperation. It also incorrectly called into question the UK’s ability to unilaterally declare war.

Earlier, responding to the unofficial No 10 briefing published on James Forsyth’s Spectator blog, which implied the UK might withhold security cooperation from EU countries that backed a Brexit extension, the Green party’s Caroline Lucas described the government’s position as “as close to blackmail as it gets”.

The Northern Ireland secretary, Julian Smith, issued more of a dissenting line to the bellicose no-deal rhetoric, saying that “any threat on withdrawing security cooperation with Ireland is unacceptable.”.

Labour’s shadow defence secretary was also unequivocal on the matter of security cooperation.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...no-10-briefing

Ha, the Brexiteers have bought the old "Merkel, the Reichskanzler of Nazi Germany, is guilty for everything" mace from Salvini.

Mr. Farage: If Germany is so evil, why have you and your children the german passports?

https://skwawkbox.org/2019/04/23/far...ny-having-one/
https://www.theguardian.com/politics...s-uk-passports

I'm so sick of this ...

[Muizer]

I'm so sick of this ...

Well, it's literally just trolling at this point. Could be worse though. You could be British. Imagine your government thinking the choreography of a schoolyard brawl is more likely to get your vote ..... that says a lot about the regard they hold you in.

[Morticia Iunia Bruti]

The most shocking thing is, that especially the UK, a nation, which is not known for emotional belly decisions, and not some Balkans state is infected with those anti EU hysteria...

[Ludicus]

UK..they cornered themselves.

Precisely...the UK has to choose between,
- The Brexit withdrawal agreement deal - three times rejected by the House of Commons.
- No deal
- Stay in the EU/ a second referendum.

The border integrity of the UK is important too.

Indeed, it's so sad. But it's a problem created by the UK. As Barnier puts is "UK cannot ask us to change what we are". And we can't ask the UK to change what they are.It's a conundrum, almost impossible to solve.

[95thrifleman]

Brexit is only ever going to end in no deal or stay in to be honest

[Daruwind]

Brexit is only ever going to end in no deal or stay in to be honest

But neither scenario has "end". In no deal, just after week or two UK will have to start negotiation with greatly pissed off EU from way worse position. Plus Scontland might fall off...in remain scenario, Farage will still be making living from campaigning for brexit.

[Ludicus]

Donald Tusk hit the nail on the head,

What’s at stake is not winning some stupid blame game. At stake is the future of Europe and the UK as well as the security and interests of our people. You don’t want a deal, you don’t want an extension, you don’t want to revoke, quo vadis?

[Exarch]

english should just cut their losses and give up on northern ireland; they're not even english anyway; let the irish have it.
Unless they also want to lose scotland as well.

Besides, it'll teach them a fine lesson for being uppity around their continental betters. They need to learn their place.

[95thrifleman]

english should just cut their losses and give up on northern ireland; they're not even english anyway; let the irish have it.
Unless they also want to lose scotland as well.

Besides, it'll teach them a fine lesson for being uppity around their continental betters. They need to learn their place.

They may not be English but they ARE British.

[Copperknickers II]

english should just cut their losses and give up on northern ireland; they're not even english anyway; let the irish have it.

Ireland does not want unification with Northern Ireland, and half of Northern Irish people are ethnically English/Scottish. Britain giving up northern Ireland would be analogous to the US unilaterally deciding to give Texas to Mexico. I don't imagine it would be very popular!

Unless they also want to lose scotland as well.

I don't see the relevance of this - why should what happens in Northern Ireland affect Scottish independence?

[Ludicus]

The Guardian,

David Sassoli, president of the European parliament, said that any Brexit extension should be to allow the British public to express their views - either through an election, or a referendum. He also revealed that he had discussed Brexit with the Commons Speaker, John Bercow. (See 2.45pm.)

---
More. Just a few hours ago,

Juncker,

would like to repeat, to the attention of our British friends, that there is not only a parliament in Westminster which has to agree, there is a parliament here

Michel Barnier, the EU's chief Brexit negotiator,

To put things very frankly, though, and to try and be objective, this particular point, we are not really in a position where we are able to find an agreement.

----

David Edgerton is Hans Rausing professor of the history of science and technology and professor of modern British history at King’s College London
Brexit is a necessary crisis

Who backs Brexit? Agriculture is against it; industry is against it; services are against it. None of them, needless to say, support a no-deal Brexit. Yet the Conservative party, which favoured European union for economic reasons over many decades, has become not only Eurosceptic – it is set on a course regarded by every reputable capitalist state and the great majority of capitalist enterprises as deeply foolish.

...Brexit is a necessary crisis, and has provided a long overdue audit of British realities. It exposes the nature of the economy, the new relations of capitalism to politics and the weakness of the state. It brings to light, in stunning clarity, Brexiters’ deluded political understanding of the UK’s place in the world. From a new understanding, a new politics of national improvement might come; without it we will remain stuck in the delusional, revivalist politics of a banana monarchy.

[Daruwind]

from Guardian...
A YouGov analysis of 300 surveys shows firm evidence that Britain has turned against Brexit since 2016, according to a report by Nicholas Cecil in the Evening Standard. Cecil says:

One of the most striking findings is that 204 out of 226 polls since July 2017 have shown remain ahead, with just seven for leave, and 15 ties.

So far this year, just one poll in the series has put Leave ahead, compared to 74 for staying in the EU.

[Muizer]

You know it hardly matters anymore now whether a small majority is for one thing or another. As I think you said, a 'remain' outcome now would see a Britain in the EU that is under constant domestic pressure to be unambitious at best, most likely uncooperative and possibly outright obstructive. Don't get me wrong, I'd have preferred it if they'd voted remain, but that's me saying I'd preferred it if they weren't who they are. The voted to leave and that genie isn't going to go back into the bottle any time soon. They have to leave. Preferably with a deal, but if needs be without.

[Daruwind]

Problem is, UK will be probably paralyzed in any way short term way forward. Look at polls. Now EU might grant extension on terms of not causing any obstructions or even tie in something like election/second referendum not a spushing UK in right direction but as getting some kind of conclusion,step forward. Then of course any proposition will get back to UK parliament right? Let´s be realistic, any kind of deal now require election + time...year,two at least. So either there is long extension to prevent any possible dangerous moments in next 3-6-12 months or there is no deal way. Or get May´s deal because that is somehow crappy middleground. There is nothing else.

If the UK is trully on self-destructive path then probably no deal only possible way forward, curing by shock. Then of course there will be hard slap with consequences. There was especially nice German? comment that in case not paying the brexit money, UK will find itseft in not very friendly company for negotiation purposes. Either UK has to accept mess after no deal or accept fct that UK is already in mess up situation and recovery will take time...election,any deal,discussion. Any side expecting final word now! should double down. It is like pendulum. Only deescalation and slowdown might lead to some kind of compromise. Pushing it instead to reach one extreme will just result in swinging on other way and back and forth.... And pieces will be flying off...like Scotland, NI....

[Muizer]

I'm not saying leaving would be good for the UK. I'm looking at it from the perspective of the remaining EU member states. It's hard to see how, with 50% give or take thinking the EU is the new evil empire, the UK could be a constructive member.

[Exarch]

They may not be English but they ARE British.

Ireland does not want unification with Northern Ireland, and half of Northern Irish people are ethnically English/Scottish. Britain giving up northern Ireland would be analogous to the US unilaterally deciding to give Texas to Mexico. I don't imagine it would be very popular!



I don't see the relevance of this - why should what happens in Northern Ireland affect Scottish independence?

The French and Germans are really pissed off and they see NI as their chance to get their pound of flesh. With blood. THe rhetoric from the Leave britishers resembles ww2 Churchillian language, they're not going to back down from that. It's like what happens when an unstoppable force encounters an immovable object. Violence may happen, although god willing, it doesn't.

All in all,
MI6 better be getting all that blackmail material against Scottish independance activists because Macron is especially committed to making the UK suffer

[Ludicus]

Don't blame the EU... Boris Johnson can play the Brexit blame game all he likes – the world won’t fall for it

The British government, as the champions of the Brexit project, understandably attach increasing importance to this blame game. Fearful of being caught red-handed as the foolish project increasingly runs into reality, their aim is to shift the focus on to others. As the immense damage to the UK’s interests, influence and wellbeing becomes clearer, their search for Brexit culprits is vital

Obviously, the UK will only be granted a Brexit extension by the EU if it agrees to hold a general election or a second referendum. It's not too late,
Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union ... 4 October 2019

Remain 49%
Leave 44%

----
Slightly off topic,
Yesterday (9/10) the finance ministers of the euro area reached agreement on the details of a budgetary instrument for the eurozone, including stronger measures to support countries hit by a sudden economic shock. It's the first, historical step in the right direction. For more details Mário Centeno (@mariofcenteno) | Twitter

--Edit, 10/11

From the news, The Guardian,

The British government is keen to open “tunnel” negotiations with the commission on the detail of a deal...
Barnier:“ A solution that would not only satisfy the hardcore Brexiters but also solve our well-known and legitimate objectives: to avoid a hard border on the island of Ireland, to protect the Good Friday agreement, and ensure the integrity of the single market. Of course, there is no guarantee of success and the time is practically up, but even the slightest chance must be used"

It's seems more like a "tunnel" under the Benn Act. Let's wait and see.

[Bob69Joe]

Reuters: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-b...-idUSKBN1WT1CZ

Her speech to Parliament: https://hansard.parliament.uk/lords/.../Queen’SSpeech

Hails, subjects of Britain. It is imperative that Boris Johnson deliver the UK from the EU on October 31st. So sayeth, your subjects' Queen.

"My Lords and Members of the House of Commons, my Government’s priority has always been to secure the United Kingdom’s departure from the European Union on 31 October. My Government intends to work towards a new partnership with the European Union, based on free trade and friendly co-operation."

Off-topic, anyone know a great communism mod for Rome Total War?

-Similar threads merged. ~Abdülmecid I