Thread: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

  1. #2941
    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by mongrel View Post
    Parliament makes decisions in the UK.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 




    Signed by Boris, against the wishes of the Parliament.

    -------
    Look what I found - Enoch Powell & Powellism. - Total War Center Forums - TWCenter.net
    I quote,
    Enoch Powell & Powellism.
    Throughout his time as a Member of Parliament, and in the minds of many today, he was often regarded as a man of the far-right and a racist, however this is completely wrong.
    Enoch Powell's biggest legacy is Brexit. Enoch, taking inspiration from a notorious anti-semite Enoch Powell quotes Douglas Reed: Patterns of Prejudice: Vol 3, No 5

    ---
    Martin Shaw put it succinctly, Vote Leave relied on racism. Brexit: The Uncivil War disguised that ugly truth
    ---
    Call me alarmist. First clouds on the horizon,Edmund de Waal: 'The Nazis banished my family from Vienna. Now we are returning

    The decision of Austria’s legislature follows a huge rise in inquiries from descendants with British nationality seeking to secure citizenship of an EU country as Brexit looms.

    De Waal, author of the 2010 bestselling family memoir The Hare with Amber Eyes, said he and his relatives would be returning to Vienna in November for their first reunion in more than eight decades.
    ...and that means a huge deal for us, particularly at a time of crisis in Europe when more and more terrible kinds of definitions of who belongs and who doesn’t are emerging, at a painful moment when the feeling of vulnerability around identity is very palpable,”
    I am European. I refuse to feel exiled from England but, like many, I am feeling an acute sense of rootlessness. ... Now, somewhat ironically, we’re going back to the Vienna which banished my family in order to reinforce that Europeanness
    .
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
    Charles Péguy

    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
    Thomas Piketty

  2. #2942

    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by mongrel View Post
    Parliament makes decisions in the UK, our laws enforced by a truly independent judiciary. 'People' had no say in the Benn Act, nor do they have a say in it's enforcement, if required. Until you get these points, anything you post will remain gibberish.
    So basically the real fascism is within the Remainer side and you fully support fascism if it means staying in EU?

  3. #2943
    Daruwind's Avatar Citizen
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    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    So basically the real fascism is within the Remainer side and you fully support fascism if it means staying in EU?
    Fascism is a form of far right-wing, authoritarian ultranationalism characterized by dictatorial power, forcible suppression of opposition, and strong regimentation of society and of the economy
    You seem little confused.... Bojo - right part of conservativesso far-right - checked, authoritarian - hell yes - checked, nationalism - checked, not caring about opposition - checked You just using empty words because know nothing better?
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  4. #2944

    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by Daruwind View Post
    You seem little confused.... Bojo - right part of conservativesso far-right - checked, authoritarian - hell yes - checked, nationalism - checked, not caring about opposition - checked You just using empty words because know nothing better?
    How is Johnson "far-right"? He is a conservative with libertarian streak and is much closer to center then May, let alone the marxist lunatics from Labor. Now let's look at pro-EU side: authoritarian - check, suppression of opposition - check, regimentation of current nanny state - check. The only difference is that actual fascists from past century had good looking uniforms and praised aesthetics. Modern-day authoritarian globalists of EU... eh, not so much.

  5. #2945

    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    So basically the real fascism is within the Remainer side and you fully support fascism if it means staying in EU?
    Parliament makes decisions in the UK,why is this too hard for you to grasp?

    As I said if you cannot grasp the basic points I made, any posts you make will be gibberish, well more so than usual.

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    How is Johnson "far-right"? He is a conservative with libertarian streak and is much closer to center then May, let alone the marxist lunatics from Labor. Now let's look at pro-EU side: authoritarian - check, suppression of opposition - check, regimentation of current nanny state - check. The only difference is that actual fascists from past century had good looking uniforms and praised aesthetics. Modern-day authoritarian globalists of EU... eh, not so much.

    There is no such thing as a Remainer party. The Conservative Party , or what's left of it, is in charge.The Opposition isn't suppressed, they have defeated the Government 7 times since Boris came to power. If you cannot grasp the basic points....you get the picture.
    Absolutley Barking, Mudpit Mutt Former Patron: Garbarsardar

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  6. #2946
    Aexodus's Avatar Persuasion>Coercion
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    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by Daruwind View Post
    You seem little confused.... Bojo - right part of conservativesso far-right - checked, authoritarian - hell yes - checked, nationalism - checked, not caring about opposition - checked You just using empty words because know nothing better?
    Boris Johnson is a one nation conservative.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Himster View Post
    The trick is to never be honest. That's what this social phenomenon is engineering: publicly conform, or else.

  7. #2947
    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aexodus View Post
    Boris Johnson is a one nation conservative.
    Boris reinvented himself as a populist ("we are the Party of the People"), positioning himself as the redemptive leader of popular sovereignty, against the Parliamentary sovereignty. It's the beginning of a dangerous path. We had seen this before, in more extreme cases, from Venezuela to illiberal Hungary.
    ----------------
    The Top Books of 2018 - The American Interest"The People vs. democracy -Why Our Freedom Is in Danger and How to Save It". Yascha Mounk - About - Yascha Mounk

    I just finished reading this book. I quote- some excerpts below,

    (...)European populists see their enemies elsewhere, and most express their bile in a more circumspect manner. But their rhetoric has the same underlying logic. Like Trump, Le Pen and Farage believe that it must be the fault of outsiders—of Muslim moochers or Polish plumbers—when incomes stagnate or their identity is threatened by newcomers. And like Trump, they blame the political establishment—from Brussels bureaucrats to the mendacious media —for their failure to deliver on their outsized promises.
    People in the capital, populists of all stripes argue, are either in it for themselves or in cahoots with the nation’s enemies. Establishment politicians, they say, have a misguided fetish for diversity. Or they root for their country’s enemies. Or—simplest explanation of all—they are somehow foreign, or Muslim, or both.

    This worldview breeds two political desires, and most populists are savvy enough to embrace both. First, populists claim, an honest leader—one who shares the pure outlook of the people and is willing to fight on their behalf— needs to win high office. And second, once this honest leader is in charge, he needs to abolish the institutional roadblocks that might stop him from carrying out the will of the people

    Liberal democracies are full of checks and balances that are meant to stop any one party from amassing too much power and to reconcile the interests of different groups. But in the imagination of the populists, the will of the people does not need to be mediated, and any compromise with minorities is a form of corruption.

    In that sense, populists are deeply democratic: much more fervently than traditional politicians, they believe that the demos should rule.But they are also deeply illiberal: unlike traditional politicians, they openly say that neither independent institutions nor individual rights should dampen the people’s voice.

    (...) The fear that populist insurgents would undermine liberal institutions if they came to power may sound alarmist. But it is based on plenty of precedent.

    (...) Liberal democracy, the unique mix of individual rights and popular rule that has long characterized most governments in North America and Western Europe, is coming apart at its seams. In its stead, we are seeing the rise of illiberal democracy, or democracy without rights, and undemocratic liberalism, or rights without democracy.

    (...)Perhaps the rise of the populists will turn out to be a short-lived phase, remembered with some mix of bafflement and curiosity a hundred years from now. Or perhaps it will turn out to be an epochal change, heralding a world order in which individual rights are violated at every turn and true self-government vanishes from the face of the earth. Nobody can promise us a happy end. But those of us who truly care about our values and our institutions are determined to fight for our convictions without regard for the consequences. Though the fruits of our labor may remain uncertain, we will do what we can to save liberal democracy.
    --
    28/8/2019 Yascha Mounk on Twitter
    Boris Johnson's decision to suspend parliament is the most blatant assault on democracy in Britain's living memory, and one of the most serious any Western country has faced in the populist era.
    Last edited by Ludicus; September 30, 2019 at 06:43 AM.
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
    Charles Péguy

    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
    Thomas Piketty

  8. #2948
    Aexodus's Avatar Persuasion>Coercion
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    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    At any rate he’s not far right.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Himster View Post
    The trick is to never be honest. That's what this social phenomenon is engineering: publicly conform, or else.

  9. #2949

    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aexodus View Post
    At any rate he’s not far right.
    Not yet.
    Absolutley Barking, Mudpit Mutt Former Patron: Garbarsardar

    "Out of the crooked tree of humanity,no straight thing can be made." Immanuel Kant
    "Oh Yeah? What about a cricket bat? That's pretty straight. Just off the top of my head..." Al Murray, Pub Landlord.

  10. #2950
    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Full Text Judgment (PDF)
    55.
    Let us remind ourselves of the foundations of our constitution. We live in a representative democracy. The House of Commons exists because the people have elected its members. The Government is not directly elected by the people (unlike the position in some other democracies). The Government exists because it has the confidence of the House of Commons. It has no democratic legitimacy other than that. This means that it is accountable to the House of Commons - and indeed to the House of Lords - for its actions, remembering always that the actual task of governing is for the executive and not for Parliament or the courts.
    Boris isn't happy.He wants to change the "System",

    So...UK Supreme Court ruling should lead to 'consequences,' says Boris

    ... there would be "consequences" following the judges decision to intervene in such a highly political question... if judges are to pronounce on political questions in this way, then there is at least an argument that there should be some form of accountability."
    Send them to the galleys!
    Last edited by Ludicus; October 01, 2019 at 08:52 AM.
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
    Charles Péguy

    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
    Thomas Piketty

  11. #2951
    Daruwind's Avatar Citizen
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    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    And looks like even Queen is looking for option what can be done in current situation. But she probably hates idea of intervening in this case...

    https://inews.co.uk/news/uk/queen-so...inister-638320
    https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/qu...-grieve-638716
    Last edited by Daruwind; October 01, 2019 at 08:57 AM.
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  12. #2952

    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Considering who parliament is most likely to be replacing boris with, I am not suprised she is looking into her options for if and when that happens.
    Last edited by Greyblades; October 01, 2019 at 10:07 AM.
    Pity the man with no country or home, revile the one who forsakes his own.

  13. #2953
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    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    So Boris publihed his "deal" and we will get yet another prorogation from Tuesday to Monday for Queen Speach. Looks like he is trying to dodge PMQs? His deal looks like nothing so new
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  14. #2954
    Morticia Iunia Bruti's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    His deal is inacceptable.

    EU shall renounce on controlls on the north irish border and rely that UK introduce custom rules, which effectively prevent the smuggling from non EU standard goods into EU.

    The north irish Stormont shall have the sole competence to decide in four years, if EU standards or UK standard shall be valid future.

    27 EU nations shall rely on the vote of a parliament, which hasn't come together since January or make progress in the peace process for years.

    Sorry, Mr. Johnson, no deal, happy travel on 31. October. Bye, bye!
    Cause tomorrow is a brand-new day
    And tomorrow you'll be on your way
    Don't give a damn about what other people say
    Because tomorrow is a brand-new day


  15. #2955
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    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    I think EU will not reject immedietly, just slowly point out problems a let time work...basically no deal agreed upon by 15th October, I also read that Boris might not be coming to EU council this month if everything is rejecting ..but important point is,EU wants to reject slowly to deflect blame at Boris again...
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  16. #2956
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    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    The solely point of Boris deal is to drop the ball in field of EU. Blame game to shift the blame on evil Europeans, not on failed home policy the last 10 years.
    Cause tomorrow is a brand-new day
    And tomorrow you'll be on your way
    Don't give a damn about what other people say
    Because tomorrow is a brand-new day


  17. #2957

    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by Carmen Sylva View Post
    The solely point of Boris deal is to drop the ball in field of EU. Blame game to shift the blame on evil Europeans, not on failed home policy the last 10 years.
    No it isn't. The PM's updated proposals for the removal of the "backstop" have been met with optimism by most of the people who matter. The DUP and the ERG seem to be on board and it's likely that the Conservative Party rebels (Stewart, Grieve et al.) as well as some Labour dissidents will - supposing there are no drastic alterations - vote for it in the Commons. That means that unless things collapse in Europe, Johnson has a chance of getting this over the line.



  18. #2958
    Aexodus's Avatar Persuasion>Coercion
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    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    It’s a good deal.

    The north irish Stormont shall have the sole competence to decide in four years, if EU standards or UK standard shall be valid future.
    And... that’s a problem why?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Himster View Post
    The trick is to never be honest. That's what this social phenomenon is engineering: publicly conform, or else.

  19. #2959
    Morticia Iunia Bruti's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    1. We will have the same drama in 4 years again (EU standards or UK standards?). Very probably as NI has made NO progess in peace process and no working coalition government since 2017.

    The EU of 27 needs a final solution, not a temporary one.

    2. Irish people must tolerate, that their economical fate after 800 years of british rule till 1921 is again solely in the hand of the british loyalists.

    3. No trust, that NI not will become a open gate for non standard EU goods without EU border control.

    You can simply not trust a british conservative government to not misuse EU treaties.

    Last example:

    The European Commission has indirectly confirmed the UK made illegal copies of classified personal information from a database reserved for members of the passport-free Schengen travel zone.

    https://euobserver.com/justice/145530

    Or they try to blackmail EU to gain financial advantages, as EU shall not control at the border.

    "We need more money or the customs agency in NI can't work properly..."

    4. Boris deal are 100 % british positions, 0 % EU positions. Thats no treaty, thats a dictation.

    Edit:

    Translation from an article from "Spiegel" about Boris "deal:

    One thing is, how do you raise tariffs without having turnpikes between Ireland and Northern Ireland? The British claim that their proposal makes controls at the border or even near them superfluous. Instead, goods should be declared before crossing the border and then prosecuted by either Irish or British authorities. The few physical examinations that would still be necessary are to take place on the dealers' premises. But that, says an EU expert, would not only mean a "tremendous bureaucratic effort", because you would have to create completely new structures. It would also open wide possibilities of abuse.

    In addition, there would be another problem: how do you keep goods that come from outside the UK and do not comply with EU standards - such as chlorine chickens from the USA - from Northern Ireland in the future? From there, if the British plan were to be implemented, they would be able to enter the Republic of Ireland and the rest of the EU unhindered. London suggests that British authorities inspect goods on British soil, on the basis of EU law, although the UK is no longer bound by it. "We certainly will not outsource sensitive controls to the British or anyone else," says an EU diplomat.

    But there is an even bigger problem. The British Government wants to put the entire plan under a reservation: the consent of the Northern Irish. Their parliament and the government should approve the agreements - not once but over and over again. A first vote should be made after the end of the two-year transitional phase after Brexit, followed by another every four years.

    Northern Ireland veto could bring back hard frontier

    It would de facto be the time limit for the Irish backstop that the British have always called for and the EU has always categorically rejected. For if the consent of the Northern Irishmen fails to materialize, the entire agreement would become obsolete after one year. Then it could come what the EU and Ireland want to prevent at any cost: a new hard border with Northern Ireland.

    https://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausla...a-1289829.html
    Last edited by Morticia Iunia Bruti; October 02, 2019 at 08:09 PM.
    Cause tomorrow is a brand-new day
    And tomorrow you'll be on your way
    Don't give a damn about what other people say
    Because tomorrow is a brand-new day


  20. #2960

    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aexodus View Post
    It’s a good deal
    Does it pass the chlorinated chicken test?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aexodus View Post
    And... that’s a problem why?
    Coz Stormont hasn't met for years.
    Last edited by mongrel; October 02, 2019 at 08:20 PM.
    Absolutley Barking, Mudpit Mutt Former Patron: Garbarsardar

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    "Oh Yeah? What about a cricket bat? That's pretty straight. Just off the top of my head..." Al Murray, Pub Landlord.

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