Thread: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

  1. #2781
    Ludicus's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by Carmen Sylva View Post
    The more Brexit mess up the more angrier will be the (english ) Hulk the more stronger he will get.https://www.mailonsunday.co.uk/news/...ible-Hulk.html
    The Incredible Hulk revisited, EU officials reject Boris Johnson claim of 'huge progress' in Brexit talks

    Johnson told the Mail on Sunday there were “real signs of movement” in Berlin, Paris and Dublin on getting rid of the backstop.

    “No, in fact people are a bit dismayed,” said one EU source, I am not even going to call them negotiations.

    It all makes it look like it’s a bit of a joke. We are talking about something extremely serious. The consequences of no deal will be extremely serious and it looks like this is being treated as a game in which you are the hero sort of story rather than [dealing] with real lives.”
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
    Charles Péguy

  2. #2782
    Copperknickers II's Avatar quaeri, si sapis
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    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by ioannis76 View Post
    Oh, come ON, this statement is populist as hell. Seriously, who believes that there will be a shortage of food in the UK, of all places, should Brexit occur?
    How could there NOT be food shortages? The shelves in my local shops were half-empty (and totally empty of fresh produce) for three days because of a damn snow storm last year! If the relationship between the EU and the UK suddently changes in a drastic way (as it would with a No Deal Brexit next month) then there will be chaos at the borders, long queues of lorries at Dover, and panic buying, resulting in supplies of many products being depleted for weeks on end. No serious person disputes this, indeed the government's own documents confirm it.

    Brexit is being undermined by a group of MPs, who defy the view of the people.
    The people are against a No Deal Brexit, as per all recent opinion polls. So if we do go down that route, then it will be a minority of MPs representing a minority of the population who took us there. That is not democracy. Of course, the polls might be wrong, it could be that a majority of the electorate would prefer No Deal. In that case, the answer is simple - a referendum being held to prove it. The government refuses to hold such a referendum precisely because they know they would lose it. They have no interest whatsoever in democracy.

    At least Brexit brought the argument of UK fisheries with regard to food and the economy.
    The EU subsidises British farmers and fishing communities, and protects them from non-EU competition. An independent UK under a Tory government would be devastating for fishing communities and farmers alike, as well as the wider economy.

    I think that it's the EU that stands to lose from a Brexit. The City was (is) a huge hub of financial activity for the EU. Lose that, and the impact would be massive, won't you agree?
    What is your point here? Of course the EU (our biggest trading partner) stands to lose from Brexit. That's just one of the reasons why Brexit is a bad idea. You seem to be insinuating that Brexit will provide some kind of massive benefit to the UK - what is that benefit? I've yet to hear anyone name a single tangible benefit which isn't demonstrable .
    A new mobile phone tower went up in a town in the USA, and the local newspaper asked a number of people what they thought of it. Some said they noticed their cellphone reception was better. Some said they noticed the tower was affecting their health.

    A local administrator was asked to comment. He nodded sagely, and said simply: "Wow. And think about how much more pronounced these effects will be once the tower is actually operational."

  3. #2783

    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    The concept of food shortages in the UK is just downright populist and preposterous. It's part of the scare tactics that was used to terrorise the Greeks into voting for a "yes" to the 2015 referendum:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_G...endum_question
    The EU uses such tactics in order to make its point. In fact, pro-EU media here were even showing us images from other countries (empty super market shelves, and the like) saying that the images were taken from Greece, in order to force us to vote for a yes. In the end we voted no, by a great margin, not that it did us any good, since the government turned it into a yes. Godzilla did not show up after the referendum result.
    The UK was feeding its population long before it entered the EU, and it will continue to do so after the EU.
    Btw, tomatoes are not really a huge expense for a family budget. Even by an increase of 22% in the price (the tarrifs that would be imposed), the impact on the household budget would be minimal.

  4. #2784
    Ludicus's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Ah, populists....

    "Brexit will be crushed like a toad under the harrow" guess who said it?
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
    Charles Péguy

  5. #2785
    Daruwind's Avatar Citizen
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    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Looks like today was fun in


  6. #2786

    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    Ah, populists....

    "Brexit will be crushed like a toad under the harrow" guess who said it?
    Johnson ACCORDING TO CAMERON. Allow me to take what Cameron says with a grain of salt.


    Looks like today was fun in
    So, showing contempt for democracy is fun, is it?

    I must say, the EU flavour of democracy is kind of hitleric.

  7. #2787
    Daruwind's Avatar Citizen
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    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by ioannis76 View Post
    So, showing contempt for democracy is fun, is it?

    I must say, the EU flavour of democracy is kind of hitleric.
    Come on, there is nothing hitleric in that. Bojo is making fool from himself walking around and lying and saying crappy stuff. In his every interview he is saying the deal is practically done while inr eality he did nothing. That´s your idea of british PM? Liar?
    Last edited by Daruwind; September 16, 2019 at 12:25 PM.

  8. #2788

    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by Daruwind View Post
    Come on, there is nothing hitleric in that. Bojo is making fool from himself walking around and lying and saying crappy stuff. In his every interview he is saying the deal is practically done while inr eality he did nothing. That´s your idea of british PM? Liar?
    If you're asking me about Cameron, he could be. Besides, it wouldn't be the first time. Blair was proved to be a liar, if I recall correctly, regarding the war in Iraq, for which he was nicknamed "Bliar".

    As for the protesters:


    Seriously, I've seen failed protests, but that sets a new record in "pathetic". There's about 30-40 people there. "Let the Parliament speak"? How about "Respect the opinion of the People"?

    Edit: Don't get me wrong, I do consider the UK as a model democracy, mainly because the people who vote are no pushovers. They made a great step with the Brexit decision, and I think/hope they will follow through with it. Otherwise, if the UK can have a reversal of a perfectly legitimate referendum, what can other countries expect?
    Last edited by ioannis76; September 16, 2019 at 02:44 PM.

  9. #2789

    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by ioannis76 View Post
    The concept of food shortages in the UK is just downright populist and preposterous. It's part of the scare tactics that was used to terrorise the Greeks into voting for a "yes" to the 2015 referendum:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_G...endum_question
    The EU uses such tactics in order to make its point. In fact, pro-EU media here were even showing us images from other countries (empty super market shelves, and the like) saying that the images were taken from Greece, in order to force us to vote for a yes. In the end we voted no, by a great margin, not that it did us any good, since the government turned it into a yes. Godzilla did not show up after the referendum result.
    The UK was feeding its population long before it entered the EU, and it will continue to do so after the EU.
    Btw, tomatoes are not really a huge expense for a family budget. Even by an increase of 22% in the price (the tarrifs that would be imposed), the impact on the household budget would be minimal.

    Complacent bollocks.

    The UK relies on the EU for 40% of it's food needs. I'm old enough to remember bread and sugar shortages during the troubled seventies. To return to those days would finish off the Conservatives as a credible party, if Bojo doesn't first. And why the eff should people pay an extra for essentials in order to pay for a Conservative Party vanity project? A large section of Britain's working poor rely on food banks as it is.

    I'll leave this here....



    Last edited by mongrel; September 17, 2019 at 02:07 AM.
    Absolutley Barking, Mudpit Mutt Former Patron: Garbarsardar

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  10. #2790

    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    So the alternative is 70's sugar shortages or crippling 70's era strikes, unburried bodies and uncollected rubbish under Corbyn?

  11. #2791

    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    The percentage of food which the UK imports from the European Union is ~30%, not 40%. Most of that is fruit and vegetable items such as olives and tomatoes. These products cannot only be more easily grown abroad, but they tend also to be of superior quality. In the event that the United Kingdom left the European Union without an agreement, this supply wouldn't stop, but would be subject to the WTO base tariff of 22% (which could be reduced or removed) and imports might be disrupted. At the same time, however, because the United Kingdom would no longer be subject to the common external tariff, it could begin importing foods from global markets at a lower rate.

    The idea of "food shortages" doesn't really exist in the sense of war time rationing but in the sense of the limited availability/increased costs of certain products in the near term.
    Last edited by ep1c_fail; September 17, 2019 at 04:23 AM.

  12. #2792
    caratacus's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Seemingly not everyone is listening to the prophesies of doom over food shortages and huge price hikes post Brexit

    Aldi a German discount supermarket chain, is investing heavily in the UK. I hope they include strong security doors to prevent the hungry hordes mentioned in "Yellowhammer" storming them.
    Aldi plans to open a new supermarket each week
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-49692086
    Aldi plans to open a new store in the UK every week on average for the next two years, its boss has told the BBC.
    Giles Hurley said the discount retailer would invest £1bn to achieve its aim.

    Aldi to double London stores after sales smash £11bn
    https://www.retailgazette.co.uk/blog...es-smash-11bn/
    Aldi has vowed to invest £1 billion in expanding its store estate within the M25 over the next two years, after posting record financial results.

    The German discounter posted an 11 per cent increase in sales to £11.3 billion in the year to December 31.

    Whilst our expansion will continue to reach every part of the UK, we’re increasing our focus on London, where our market share is just 3.4 per cent, compared to 8.1 per cent nationally,” Aldi UK and Ireland chief executive Giles Hurley said.

    “London shoppers regularly tell us they would switch to Aldi if there was one nearby, so there is clearly a significant growth opportunity for us in the capital.” “For almost three decades we’ve proven that investment equals growth – investment in our infrastructure, our people and our prices.

    “The commitment we have made to our customers to continue investing in the UK over the coming years remains as strong as ever.”
    This decision coming after another German supermarket Lidl, announced their plans some months ago, for expansion in the difficult area for discount food retailing of London.

    Lidl to ramp up London presence with £500m investment
    https://www.ft.com/content/0b810434-...1-51bf8f989972
    June 12, 2019

    Lidl plans to invest £500m ramping up its presence in London, opening 40 new stores over the next five years in a region where it has traditionally found it difficult to expand.

    The German discount supermarket chain on Wednesday said the move — which will see it increase its foothold in the UK capital by almost half — would add 1,500 jobs and include a full size store on Tottenham Court Road in the city centre. “It’s coming up to 25 years since we first launched in London, and in that time we’ve grown to almost 90 stores, employing more than 5,000 people. London is at the heart of our growth plans across Great Britain,” said Christian Hartnagel, chief executive of Lidl’s UK business.

    Lidl and rival Aldi arrived in the UK in the 1990s and have expanded rapidly over the past decade, tripling their market share to around 15 per cent and muscling out traditional supermarkets. Lidl currently has 760 stores and 13 warehouses in the country.
    Seems our German friends in business have more belief in the UK than some of our own. They will be rewarded in future I'm sure by their decision to invest in UK.inc.
    Last edited by caratacus; September 17, 2019 at 04:57 AM.

  13. #2793
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    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    @Caractus: If you look at the History of German companies investing in Foreign countries, your confidence in this decision will dwindel.

  14. #2794

    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by ep1c_fail View Post
    The percentage of food which the UK imports from the European Union is ~30%, not 40%. Most of that is fruit and vegetable items such as olives and tomatoes. These products cannot only be more easily grown abroad, but they tend also to be of superior quality. In the event that the United Kingdom left the European Union without an agreement, this supply wouldn't stop, but would be subject to the WTO base tariff of 22% (which could be reduced or removed) and imports might be disrupted. At the same time, however, because the United Kingdom would no longer be subject to the common external tariff, it could begin importing foods from global markets at a lower rate.

    The idea of "food shortages" doesn't really exist in the sense of war time rationing but in the sense of the limited availability/increased costs of certain products in the near term.
    Exactly. And since you beat me to that one, I'll just answer mongrel on this one:

    And why the eff should people pay an extra for essentials in order to pay for a Conservative Party vanity project?
    Because my dear mongrel, it's NOT a vanity project. It's THE FREAKING WILL OF THE UK PEOPLE, whether you like it, or not.
    The Bremain blokes should stop being such sore losers, and stop calling "double or nothing", as if they were compulsive gamblers. Respect the will of the people.
    The Luxemburgian boy just showed what an ass he is. Nothing more than that. But what can one expect from a non-nation, as Farrage would so eloquently put it? (he did so for another non-nation, I can't recall which).

  15. #2795

    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by mongrel View Post
    And why the eff should people pay an extra for essentials in order to pay for a Conservative Party vanity project?
    Feels good having one vote tear apart a few decades of work, doesn't it. Welcome to the club.
    One thing is for certain: the more profoundly baffled you have been in your life, the more open your mind becomes to new ideas.
    -Neil deGrasse Tyson

    Let's think the unthinkable, let's do the undoable. Let us prepare to grapple with the ineffable itself, and see if we may not eff it after all.

  16. #2796

    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    [
    Last edited by mongrel; September 17, 2019 at 12:50 PM.
    Absolutley Barking, Mudpit Mutt Former Patron: Garbarsardar

    "Out of the crooked tree of humanity,no straight thing can be made." Immanuel Kant
    "Oh Yeah? What about a cricket bat? That's pretty straight. Just off the top of my head..." Al Murray, Pub Landlord.

  17. #2797

    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by ioannis76 View Post
    Exactly. And since you beat me to that one, I'll just answer mongrel on this one:



    Because my dear mongrel, it's NOT a vanity project. It's THE FREAKING WILL OF THE UK PEOPLE, whether you like it, or not.
    The Bremain blokes should stop being such sore losers, and stop calling "double or nothing", as if they were compulsive gamblers. Respect the will of the people.
    The Luxemburgian boy just showed what an ass he is. Nothing more than that. But what can one expect from a non-nation, as Farrage would so eloquently put it? (he did so for another non-nation, I can't recall which).
    It is the will of some people, many of whom are barely informed or deceived by charlatans. Shouting 'WILLADAPEEPUL' doesn't cut it. We are not the Peeeepulz Republic of China , or someover country taken over by commie peasant militia. Parliament is sovereign and it voted to reject no deal Brexit.

    Quote Originally Posted by ep1c_fail View Post
    The percentage of food which the UK imports from the European Union is ~30%, not 40%. Most of that is fruit and vegetable items such as olives and tomatoes. These products cannot only be more easily grown abroad, but they tend also to be of superior quality. In the event that the United Kingdom left the European Union without an agreement, this supply wouldn't stop, but would be subject to the WTO base tariff of 22% (which could be reduced or removed) and imports might be disrupted. At the same time, however, because the United Kingdom would no longer be subject to the common external tariff, it could begin importing foods from global markets at a lower rate.

    The idea of "food shortages" doesn't really exist in the sense of war time rationing but in the sense of the limited availability/increased costs of certain products in the near term.
    You forget the remaining 10% result from trade deals with third parties via the EU. No EU no deals with rest of the world. Britian is unlikely to arrange decent deals with third countries within months let alone days of day one no deal. People will notice from D1ND plus 10 onwards , if not before, how shafted they are.


    Quote Originally Posted by 95thrifleman View Post
    So the alternative is 70's sugar shortages or crippling 70's era strikes, unburried bodies and uncollected rubbish under Corbyn?
    The 70s were , crap food, racism, sexism, the above, Jimmy Savile , Jess Yate, Hughie ing Green. But a working man could earn good money and rent or own their own home without difficulty.And we had libraries, policemen, free higher education.But if it's a golden age you are looking for, Post ERM John Major is what you are searching for.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidin View Post
    Feels good having one vote tear apart a few decades of work, doesn't it. Welcome to the club.
    It is weird now that the impact is known, that the British working class are not tearing into Cameron the old Etonian elite and generic tax dodgers who are imperilling this country. Instead for some reason they are shouting at people who voted the opposite of their choice.
    Last edited by mongrel; September 17, 2019 at 01:02 PM.
    Absolutley Barking, Mudpit Mutt Former Patron: Garbarsardar

    "Out of the crooked tree of humanity,no straight thing can be made." Immanuel Kant
    "Oh Yeah? What about a cricket bat? That's pretty straight. Just off the top of my head..." Al Murray, Pub Landlord.

  18. #2798

    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by mongrel View Post
    Parliament is sovereign and it voted to reject no deal Brexit.
    Well that's fine. If I'm reading him right, the people still voted for Brexit. What Parliament said told your Prime Minister is that he can screw off and he will have a deal and NO DEAL will not happen whether he likes it or not. There's been something like at least five deals brought back that you guys can fall back on if you guys choose to. And may have to. But Parliament has said that while, yes, Brexit is happening, there will be a deal.
    One thing is for certain: the more profoundly baffled you have been in your life, the more open your mind becomes to new ideas.
    -Neil deGrasse Tyson

    Let's think the unthinkable, let's do the undoable. Let us prepare to grapple with the ineffable itself, and see if we may not eff it after all.

  19. #2799

    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidin View Post
    Well that's fine. If I'm reading him right, the people still voted for Brexit. What Parliament said told your Prime Minister is that he can screw off and he will have a deal and NO DEAL will not happen whether he likes it or not. There's been something like at least five deals brought back that you guys can fall back on if you guys choose to. And may have to. But Parliament has said that while, yes, Brexit is happening, there will be a deal.
    That is about the gist of it.
    Absolutley Barking, Mudpit Mutt Former Patron: Garbarsardar

    "Out of the crooked tree of humanity,no straight thing can be made." Immanuel Kant
    "Oh Yeah? What about a cricket bat? That's pretty straight. Just off the top of my head..." Al Murray, Pub Landlord.

  20. #2800

    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    The EU gave us a deal, Parliment said no. Parliment has said no to no deal.

    So the oh so sovereighn parliment is now saying to the British people that democracy doesn't matter, the referendum doesn't count.

    Corbyn is running scared as he can't win an election now lib dems have doubled down on remain and tories on leave and an election is the only way to beat this deadlock.

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