Thread: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

  1. #2641
    Cohors_Evocata's Avatar Ordinarius
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    On the crossroads
    Posts
    783

    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    Nope, it's just political pressure.Let's keep in mind that MPs 'checked with EU chiefs over Brexit delay' before passing bill

    But in fact, another three, six months would not solve the problem- I mean, there will be no any "new deal". The current deal is reasonable:businesses aren't cut off by continuing rules in a transition period until December 2020;obviously, the necessary condition is a backstop keeping the UK in an EU customs union for some time.
    Unfortunately that article doesn't mention who specifically made these assurances or what "branch" of the EU they represent. As I understand it, France, or, more specifically, Macron would still have a veto on a further extension in the European Council. Unless the MPs in question also received (indirect) assurance from the French government, Macron could still be a wildcard, though I expect doing something like this would cost him a lot of goodwill himself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Daruwind View Post
    It could be foreshadowing of longer extension as well. Simple hint to UK that short extension is no go...but I doubt EU will in the end force no deal after all this long way...It could happen by accident but those are probably public statements to prepare ground or back to home public...

    Only reason why EU27 would not agree with another extension is in case they will strongly believe that UK will revoke article 50. There will be still options left to UK - no deal, may´s deal and revoking article 50. And first two were already voted down multiple time. (not saying there is majority for revoking either...)
    The October 31st deadline was (supposedly already a compromise towards the French; other member states had wanted a longer extension (source: https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-47889404). Sure, the French government may be playing bad cop on the European stage here to put pressure on the British, but what does it gain from being seen to renege on that attitude in public several times? It makes him look weaker instead and suggests French and European interests/actions are at odds, which doesn't help if Macron wants to deter more Eurosceptic challengers at home.

    As much as I dislike the idea, the one good thing about No Dealis that it would end the limbo and present a fait accompli from which to move on. It would in this case not be the EU as a whole kicking the UK out but France, which, while perhaps bad for bilateral relations, doesn't leave the blame laying at Brussel's doorstep.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alastor View Post
    Normally I would agree with this. But when I read things like that: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a9095976.html it makes me wonder.
    The article in question doesn't specify the process of choosing a commissioner (EDIT 2: it does), but the text does say that one "shall be chosen". Wouldn't Britain in essence be violating an international treaty at least in spirit if it simply refused to do so?

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Article 17

    1. The Commission shall promote the general interest of the Union and take appropriate initiatives to that end. It shall ensure the application of the Treaties, and of measures adopted by the institutions pursuant to them. It shall oversee the application of Union law under the control of the Court of Justice of the European Union. It shall execute the budget and manage programmes. It shall exercise coordinating, executive and management functions, as laid down in the Treaties. With the exception of the common foreign and security policy, and other cases provided for in the Treaties, it shall ensure the Union's external representation. It shall initiate the Union's annual and multiannual programming with a view to achieving interinstitutional agreements.

    2. Union legislative acts may only be adopted on the basis of a Commission proposal, except where the Treaties provide otherwise. Other acts shall be adopted on the basis of a Commission proposal where the Treaties so provide.

    3. The Commission's term of office shall be five years.

    The members of the Commission shall be chosen on the ground of their general competence and European commitment from persons whose independence is beyond doubt.

    In carrying out its responsibilities, the Commission shall be completely independent. Without prejudice to Article 18(2), the members of the Commission shall neither seek nor take instructions from any Government or other institution, body, office or entity. They shall refrain from any action incompatible with their duties or the performance of their tasks.

    4. The Commission appointed between the date of entry into force of the Treaty of Lisbon and 31 October 2014, shall consist of one national of each Member State, including its President and the High Representative of the Union for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy who shall be one of its Vice-Presidents.

    5. As from 1 November 2014, the Commission shall consist of a number of members, including its President and the High Representative of the Union for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy, corresponding to two thirds of the number of Member States, unless the European Council, acting unanimously, decides to alter this number.

    The members of the Commission shall be chosen from among the nationals of the Member States on the basis of a system of strictly equal rotation between the Member States, reflecting the demographic and geographical range of all the Member States. This system shall be established unanimously by the European Council in accordance with Article 244 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union.

    6. The President of the Commission shall:

    (a) lay down guidelines within which the Commission is to work;

    (b) decide on the internal organisation of the Commission, ensuring that it acts consistently, efficiently and as a collegiate body;

    (c) appoint Vice-Presidents, other than the High Representative of the Union for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy, from among the members of the Commission.

    A member of the Commission shall resign if the President so requests. The High Representative of the Union for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy shall resign, in accordance with the procedure set out in Article 18(1), if the President so requests.

    7. Taking into account the elections to the European Parliament and after having held the appropriate consultations, the European Council, acting by a qualified majority, shall propose to the European Parliament a candidate for President of the Commission. This candidate shall be elected by the European Parliament by a majority of its component members. If he does not obtain the required majority, the European Council, acting by a qualified majority, shall within one month propose a new candidate who shall be elected by the European Parliament following the same procedure.

    The Council, by common accord with the President-elect, shall adopt the list of the other persons whom it proposes for appointment as members of the Commission. They shall be selected, on the basis of the suggestions made by Member States, in accordance with the criteria set out in paragraph 3, second subparagraph, and paragraph 5, second subparagraph.

    The President, the High Representative of the Union for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy and the other members of the Commission shall be subject as a body to a vote of consent by the European Parliament. On the basis of this consent the Commission shall be appointed by the European Council, acting by a qualified majority.

    8. The Commission, as a body, shall be responsible to the European Parliament. In accordance with Article 234 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union, the European Parliament may vote on a motion of censure of the Commission. If such a motion is carried, the members of the Commission shall resign as a body and the High Representative of the Union for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy shall resign from the duties that he carries out in the Commission.
    Last edited by Cohors_Evocata; September 08, 2019 at 01:14 PM.
    I tend to edit my posts once or several times after writing and uploading them. Please keep this in mind when reading a recent post of mine. Also, should someone, for some unimaginable reason, wish to rep me, please add your username in the process, so I can at least know whom to be grateful towards.

    My thanks in advance.

  2. #2642
    Alastor's Avatar Senator
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Not home
    Posts
    1,368

    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cohors_Evocata View Post
    Wouldn't Britain in essence be violating an international treaty at least in spirit if it simply refused to do so?
    I guess it would. But that doesn't mean it can't happen.

  3. #2643
    Daruwind's Avatar Citizen
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    Prague
    Posts
    2,176

    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    “If he refuses to nominate a Commissioner, the UK would be in breach of the treaty – that being so, EU Commission not at fault and can operate legally.”
    Well technically Bojo has no parliament majority and UK is heading for election sooner or later. EU won´t crumble in 2-3 months...

    Technically, UK said Finnland has now voting rights for majority of things..what about EU27 electing someone for timebeing for UK till UK manage to produce one name after elections?
    https://www.euractiv.com/section/uk-...skip-meetings/

  4. #2644

    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    The thing is, if we crash out of the EU then get a pro-EU governemnt, they would have to renegotiate with the EU to rejoin and lose all those subsidies

  5. #2645
    Alastor's Avatar Senator
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Not home
    Posts
    1,368

    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by 95thrifleman View Post
    The thing is, if we crash out of the EU then get a pro-EU governemnt, they would have to renegotiate with the EU to rejoin and lose all those subsidies
    Join Schengen + Join Euro etc. That sounds like a great outcome to me. I would be quite happy not to have to buy pounds ever again. Not to mention avoiding all those annoying border checks in London.
    Last edited by Alastor; September 08, 2019 at 04:02 PM.

  6. #2646
    Alastor's Avatar Senator
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Not home
    Posts
    1,368

    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Have we reached peak stupid yet?
    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-b...-idUSKCN1VT0SG
    A plan under consideration would see Johnson sending a letter alongside the request to extend Article 50 setting out that the government does not want any delay after Oct. 31, according to the report.

  7. #2647

    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Not necissarily, assuming the obstruction efforts fail the process will be down to the decision of the EU itself, such a letter might be an additional push to those like macron who are as fed up with the constant delays as we are.
    Pity the man with no country or home, revile the one who forsakes his own.

  8. #2648

    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by Greyblades View Post
    Not necissarily, assuming the obstruction efforts fail the process will be down to the decision of the EU itself, such a letter might be an additional push to those like macron who are as fed up with the constant delays as we are.
    Macron won't torpedo the extension. It's just not going to happen.

  9. #2649

    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    If I was Boris, I'd start giving real support to the Catalan seperatists to get the Spainish to kick us out.

  10. #2650
    Daruwind's Avatar Citizen
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    Prague
    Posts
    2,176

    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Point is, nobody is right now taking Bojo seriously. Like he has no majority, his plans are almost all checked, Uk is heading for election and Bojo has been publicly saying lies and changing statements very often and trying acts on very edge of democracy....so why on earth would anybody take his words? At best he is current UK PM who is commanded by parliament to ask for extension...says about his real power right now. (Actually in case of election, how probably will Bojo stay as leader of conservatives?)

  11. #2651
    Aexodus's Avatar Persuasion>Coercion
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Location
    NI
    Posts
    6,437
    Blog Entries
    2

    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    The UK will never join the Euro never mind Schengen. If the government did that then there’d be uproar.
    Patronised by Pontifex Maximus

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Nope. There is nothing to suggest dramatically that his heart is giving out. His heart attack is a testament to how well he can recover from something like that.

  12. #2652
    Alastor's Avatar Senator
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Not home
    Posts
    1,368

    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aexodus View Post
    The UK will never join the Euro never mind Schengen. If the government did that then there’d be uproar.
    If the UK leaves and then asks to rejoin the EU it will have to.

  13. #2653

    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by Daruwind View Post
    Point is, nobody is right now taking Bojo seriously. Like he has no majority, his plans are almost all checked, Uk is heading for election and Bojo has been publicly saying lies and changing statements very often and trying acts on very edge of democracy....so why on earth would anybody take his words? At best he is current UK PM who is commanded by parliament to ask for extension...says about his real power right now. (Actually in case of election, how probably will Bojo stay as leader of conservatives?)
    I'm curious as to why he is pig-headedly repeating Mrs Mays mistakes, but worse (at least May reained a majority albeit with DUP help).Was it too much for him to have a word with Corbyn and figure out a deal? Saddam Hussein had more tactical nous.

    I am suspecting more and more that the incoming anti-tax avoidance directive is the reason for such haste.
    Absolutley Barking, Mudpit Mutt Former Patron: Garbarsardar

    "Out of the crooked tree of humanity,no straight thing can be made." Immanuel Kant
    "Oh Yeah? What about a cricket bat? That's pretty straight. Just off the top of my head..." Al Murray, Pub Landlord.

  14. #2654

    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by mongrel View Post
    I'm curious as to why he is pig-headedly repeating Mrs Mays mistakes, but worse (at least May reained a majority albeit with DUP help).Was it too much for him to have a word with Corbyn and figure out a deal? Saddam Hussein had more tactical nous.

    I am suspecting more and more that the incoming anti-tax avoidance directive is the reason for such haste.
    You are being too partisan I think. Bojo isn't repeating any mistakes.

    All of this was planned for and expected, whoever took over from May it would be the same. The EU have stated they will not change the deal and they know parliment will avoid no deal.

    All of this is electioneering with Bojo securing the brexit vote while trying to split the remain vote between lib dems and labour. Proroguing parlimet has given him chance to get 5 weeks without worrying about labour tabling anything while they have the advantage.

    The situation that brought down may will never change without an election and that is what it is about right now. Bojo and Corbyn both competing to get the election called on their terms and their timetable.

  15. #2655

    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    I'll laugh when it's another hung parliament.

  16. #2656
    Daruwind's Avatar Citizen
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    Prague
    Posts
    2,176

    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Parliament is trying to use motion SO24 to get hold and publish all info regarding "yellowhammer" and all conversations, fb, mails, materials, advisors about prorogation...

    Quote Originally Posted by mongrel View Post
    I'm curious as to why he is pig-headedly repeating Mrs Mays mistakes, but worse (at least May reained a majority albeit with DUP help).Was it too much for him to have a word with Corbyn and figure out a deal? Saddam Hussein had more tactical nous.

    I am suspecting more and more that the incoming anti-tax avoidance directive is the reason for such haste.
    I can udnerstand why Bojo is doing what he is doing. Basically May was "weak" her plan to threaten with "no deal" was empty. Now Bojo probably also is not happy with no deal option, but he at least he looks like mad enough to actually do it. It is only power negotiation but....looks like EU is fed up after all the wasted time especially as Bojo is not having majority and UK standing in one line behind him...
    Last edited by Daruwind; September 09, 2019 at 09:11 AM.

  17. #2657
    Ludicus's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
    Citizen

    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    10,744

    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by Katsumoto View Post
    Brexit really has very little to do with Trump and he certainly isn't its master.
    I know...I should have written "Boris, inspired by/a replica of Trump"...thinking about it, they rose together and now they are falling together.
    ------
    Someone has rightly said, "Boris is a modern Machiavelli in a clown custome". From the news,

    Boris Johnson 'sabotage' letter to EU 'would break law' | Politics | The ...
    Reports in the Daily Telegraph suggested the prime minister had drawn up plans to “sabotage” parliament’s efforts to force through a Brexit extension to prevent the UK leaving the bloc without a deal.
    He was said to be considering sending an accompanying letter to the EU alongside the request to extend article 50, which would say the government did not want any delay to Brexit.


    -----
    Quote Originally Posted by Alastor View Post
    If the UK leaves and then asks to rejoin the EU it will have to.
    That's what the EU said about Scotland...in 2014. (Scottish independence referendum). In fact, Scotland always wanted to be part of the EU.John Swinney, Scotland's Finance Minister in 2014, said "Scotland has been a member of the EU for 40 years"
    At the time,poor Scotland was blackmailed by Spain and England. Listen to Rajoy, fearing that Catalonia might be inspired to follow suit,"I respect all the decisions taken by the British, but I know for sure that a region that would separate from a member state of the European Union would remain outside the European Union and that should be known by the Scots and the rest of the European citizens"

    Oh, the supreme irony!
    Last edited by Ludicus; September 09, 2019 at 09:46 AM.
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
    Charles Péguy

  18. #2658

    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by 95thrifleman View Post
    You are being too partisan I think. Bojo isn't repeating any mistakes.

    All of this was planned for and expected, whoever took over from May it would be the same. The EU have stated they will not change the deal and they know parliment will avoid no deal.

    All of this is electioneering with Bojo securing the brexit vote while trying to split the remain vote between lib dems and labour. Proroguing parlimet has given him chance to get 5 weeks without worrying about labour tabling anything while they have the advantage.

    The situation that brought down may will never change without an election and that is what it is about right now. Bojo and Corbyn both competing to get the election called on their terms and their timetable.
    Oh that kind of plan.



    I think the publication of Operation Yellowammer is crucial. If it contains what I understand it does it will undermine no deal , at least in the rational media, in my view. There are obvious reasons why Michael Gove is delaying publication of Brexit impacts.

    The Brexit information currently available to business and individuals is at best scanty.

    https://www.gov.uk/get-ready-brexit-check


    As expected, the Benn bill aimed at blocking no-deal Brexit on 31 October has become law after the Queen gave Royal Assent.
    Last edited by mongrel; September 09, 2019 at 09:50 AM.
    Absolutley Barking, Mudpit Mutt Former Patron: Garbarsardar

    "Out of the crooked tree of humanity,no straight thing can be made." Immanuel Kant
    "Oh Yeah? What about a cricket bat? That's pretty straight. Just off the top of my head..." Al Murray, Pub Landlord.

  19. #2659
    Daruwind's Avatar Citizen
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    Prague
    Posts
    2,176

    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Bercow announcing he will step down on October 31st. (Damn so much fun with him... )


  20. #2660
    Carmen Sylva's Avatar Domesticus
    Join Date
    May 2015
    Location
    Palace of Neuwied
    Posts
    2,179

    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by Daruwind View Post
    Parliament is trying to use motion SO24 to get hold and publish all info regarding "yellowhammer" and all conversations, fb, mails, materials, advisors about prorogation...



    I can udnerstand why Bojo is doing what he is doing. Basically May was "weak" her plan to threaten with "no deal" was empty. Now Bojo probably also is not happy with no deal option, but he at least he looks like mad enough to actually do it. It is only power negotiation but....looks like EU is fed up after all the wasted time especially as Bojo is not having majority and UK standing in one line behind him...
    EU will rightfully even more set up, if UK is starting to expel EU citizens, even if they live a long time in UK.

    Though Johnson has declared, only new EU citizens will need Visa after Brexit, there is no way to differentiate between new and old EU citizens in UK because of sketchy british immigration documents, look at Windrush scandal.

    If this happens and i'm quite certain, it will happen, it will and should definitely have consequences in the EU and UK relationship.
    Christ was crucified, Socrates was poisoned, Phidias was accused of theft - it is almost an honor to be abused by contemporaries.

    Carmen Sylva (1843 - 1916), actually Princess Elisabeth Pauline Ottilie Luise zu Wied VA (Royal Order of Victoria and Albert), German writer and lyricist, by marriage Queen Elizabeth of Romania

    Proud Non-Citizen / End of Time / Unschuldsengel / My Mods

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •