Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

[Ludicus]

The Lords have voted to get the Bill returned by Friday, ready for Royal Assent on Monday, so there will be no chance of filibustering etc. Boris is running out of options.

It seems that Boris will have to face the risk of dying in a "ditch". Politically speaking, of course.
---
It's obvious to me that the Labour can win the next G.E. Corbyn has nothing to fear. The next step will be a second - well informed - referendum.Let's keep in mind that,
Public felt ill-informed in EU referendum campaign

There were glaring democratic deficiencies in the run-up to the vote, with the public feeling totally ill-informed.

[Muizer]

We had a vote on alternative vote, but we’ve never had a vote on stv.

Stv is used in Northern Ireland for local elections to the assembly.

That requires multiple candidates per constituency, right? For constituencies with one candidate, alternative vote is the same thing as single transferable vote.

[mongrel]

It seems that Boris will have to face the risk of dying in a "ditch". Politically speaking, of course.
---
It's obvious to me that the Labour can win the next G.E. Corbyn has nothing to fear. The next step will be a second - well informed - referendum.Let's keep in mind that,
Public felt ill-informed in EU referendum campaign

His one remaining option is to resign as PM and remain as Tory leader.

I suspect that if the updated Operation Yellowhamer details were published in full, any pretence that Brexit is beneficial would vanish.

[Daruwind]

what about Bojo inicializing his own VONC? He would force opposition into getting some kind of caretaker goverment? Corbyn wanted to lead it,Lib-dem was opposing him...

[95thrifleman]

what about Bojo inicializing his own VONC? He would force opposition into getting some kind of caretaker goverment? Corbyn wanted to lead it,Lib-dem was opposing him...

It's risky, if Corbyn can get the caretaker ob then it's game over.

[Daruwind]

It is, but right now it looks like they will let Bojo humiliate himself by going to EU and having to ask for extension..and EU will surely offers him just one pretty looooong one.

I read that election in November will basically double votes for Brexit party and Conservatives lost any lead to Labour...So he should do something soon

[mongrel]

In all my days I have never imagined that the Financial Times would actually write off the Tory Party as a serious force in politics.

https://www.ft.com/content/fbddbbd6-...4-b5ded7a7fe3f

[95thrifleman]

The thing is, even if Bojo has to ask for an extension he won't really lose the brexit vote as the blame can be laid firmly at the remainer's feet.

Bojo is screwed by parliment but the numbers meant he was always screwed, he's spinning it nicely to maintain the brexit vote. The thing that will matter is if he can get a general election with the remain vote split between labour and lib dem.

Corbyn is an unpopular messiah, only the far left really love him and he's quite toxic to most of the electorate while the lib dems are doing a pretty good job of late.

[mongrel]

The thing is, even if Bojo has to ask for an extension he won't really lose the brexit vote as the blame can be laid firmly at the remainer's feet.

Bojo is screwed by parliment but the numbers meant he was always screwed, he's spinning it nicely to maintain the brexit vote. The thing that will matter is if he can get a general election with the remain vote split between labour and lib dem.

Corbyn is an unpopular messiah, only the far left really love him and he's quite toxic to most of the electorate while the lib dems are doing a pretty good job of late.

Fair comment. However if Brexit is drawn out, he will be the next Theresa May, only with a completely split party to add to his woes.

[95thrifleman]

Fair comment. However if Brexit is drawn out, he will be the next Theresa May, only with a completely split party to add to his woes.

Not really. May was trying to be all things to all people, the deal was compromise. Bojo is flying his colours on HMS Brexit and that will force labour to be a remain party and Corbyn is as firmly trapped in that as Bojo is trapped by his lack of majority.

Come the election his split party, one way or another, will be united as his remain MPs will mostly lose their seats to remain parties. He'll have a united majority or be a united opposition party.

Delaying the election is hurting Corbyn publicly.

[Greyblades]

They wouldnt be resisting calling an election as hard as they are if they did not think they would be handing Boris a majority.

Thier rhetoric tells us at least some of them believe that boris becomes beatable if the delay goes through, I dont see why obstruction would work now when it hasnt worked for 3 years, reminds me of the oft memed definition of insanity.

Seems to me thier best bet for wresting anything from this that wont be undone come 2022 at the latest would be to let brexit happen and fight on more winnable issues.

[mongrel]

Not really. May was trying to be all things to all people, the deal was compromise. Bojo is flying his colours on HMS Brexit and that will force labour to be a remain party and Corbyn is as firmly trapped in that as Bojo is trapped by his lack of majority.

Come the election his split party, one way or another, will be united as his remain MPs will mostly lose their seats to remain parties. He'll have a united majority or be a united opposition party.

Delaying the election is hurting Corbyn publicly.

Farage gave Boris a deadline, 31st October to leave the EU, if the UK doesn't the BP will compete in all Tory seats.Delay is not in Boris's interest.

[Dante Von Hespburg]

So we're approaching 'actual' dictator territory now as Boris is indicating he may very well break the law, and with it the entire Westminster system by refusing to get royal assent for the anti-no deal legislation.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1174828/brexit-news-boris-johnson-eu-extension-law-mps-commons-oct-31-general-election

The Conservative Party is at loggerheads over the Brexit crisis after Prime Minister Boris Johnson suggested he could break the law in order to take Britain out of the European Union without a deal.
The House of Lords passed a bill on Friday effectively blocking a no-deal Brexit, paving the way for it to become law.
But, according to The Daily Telegraph, the Prime Minister wrote to Tory members on Friday evening, telling them: “They just passed a law that would force me to beg Brussels for an extension to the Brexit deadline. This is something I will never do.”
He told reporters on Friday he would not entertain seeking another deadline extension from Brussels, as the incoming law, expected to receive Royal Assent on Monday, compels him to if no agreement is in place by October 19.

If Mr Johnson fails to carry out the will of Parliament, he risks being taken to court. If a judge then ordered him to obey Parliament, he could be held in contempt and even jailed if he refused, reported The Telegraph.Former Conservative leader Iain Duncan Smith encouraged Mr Johnson to break the law, saying he would be seen as a Brexit “martyr” if judges opted to put him in jail for breaching Parliament’s terms.
Mr Duncan Smith told the newspaper: “This is about Parliament versus the people. Boris Johnson is on the side of the people, who voted to leave the EU.
“The people are sovereign because they elect Parliament. But Parliament wants to stop the will of the people.”

https://www.itv.com/news/2019-09-07/...o-deal-brexit/

This is frankly moronic if it happens. I knew Boris was incompetent (as we've seen in FO and now PM he cannot actually deal with being in positions of power that do not allow him to play the loveable buffoon). But it is literally the end of democracy in the UK system, with an executive that will set the precedent of being able to ignore anything from amendments to their legislation (Which is an integral part of the checks and balances) to votes they do not like, they detach themselves from the source of sovereignty in both Parliament and how it is given through elections. The fact him going to jail is extolled as a good thing for a 'brexit martyr' is insane too, as it implies the law courts will be targeted by fanatical brexit supporters if they jail Boris for breaking the law. It is absolutely disgusting.

This is not even territory where you can blame 'remainers', its totally a Government gone autocratic when they decide to break the law. As for 'Parliament verses people' crap that Cummings has been trying to spin, its absolutely a false narrative, because a representative democracy does not vote in messengers, but representatives- who literally can use their own conscious to decide on votes (plus the existence of party whips). I say this as someone who wants a representative democracy, but such plain lies about as told by Cummings and Ian Duncan Smith are literally paving the way not for democratic reform, but dictatorial moves on the part of the executive (who will never allow electoral reform), that the Government are even considering this highlights they are not fit for office. It destroys the very system and basis of sovereignty in the UK that brexit was supposed to be saving.

[mongrel]

I'm wondering of the 1922 commitee should have a word. Boris has to go whilst we still have a country left.

Interesting times, Civil servants can't follow unlawful instruction. They are obliged to down tools if the PM and Cabinet Office issue unlawful decrees.

[caratacus]

This is frankly moronic if it happens. I knew Boris was incompetent (as we've seen in FO and now PM he cannot actually deal with being in positions of power that do not allow him to play the loveable buffoon). But it is literally the end of democracy in the UK system, with an executive that will set the precedent of being able to ignore anything from amendments to their legislation (Which is an integral part of the checks and balances) to votes they do not like, they detach themselves from the source of sovereignty in both Parliament and how it is given through elections. The fact him going to jail is extolled as a good thing for a 'brexit martyr' is insane too, as it implies the law courts will be targeted by fanatical brexit supporters if they jail Boris for breaking the law. It is absolutely disgusting.

This is not even territory where you can blame 'remainers', its totally a Government gone autocratic when they decide to break the law. As for 'Parliament verses people' crap that Cummings has been trying to spin, its absolutely a false narrative, because a representative democracy does not vote in messengers, but representatives- who literally can use their own conscious to decide on votes (plus the existence of party whips). I say this as someone who wants a representative democracy, but such plain lies about as told by Cummings and Ian Duncan Smith are literally paving the way not for democratic reform, but dictatorial moves on the part of the executive (who will never allow electoral reform), that the Government are even considering this highlights they are not fit for office. It destroys the very system and basis of sovereignty in the UK that brexit was supposed to be saving.

Calm down my friend.'I 'd say this is another false part of this big charade. A desperate demonstration to the nation that Government is unable to deliver Brexit and unable to call an election to give the public the opportunity to break the impasse. SO....the next part carrying this charade further, is on Monday which brings legal proceedings, probably brought by that enigma Gina Miller, to block any attempt at Johnson ignoring the bill delaying Brexit. Then after much debate in newspapers about the desperate situation and the pound’s value tumbling, in early October a deal is suddenly produced which is in effect another May's deal with even more strings attached. Something which is neither in nor out and that neither Brexiteers or Remainers really want but have to swallow because... Well because there really isn’t any other direction is there, as Parliament have boxed themselves in so effectively.

I cast a very cynical eye over all the machinations over BREXIT, because if thre is one thing we know, contradictions there are a plenty. Whether it's a Chancellor who claims to have prepared for no deal, whilst being deeply against it to the extent of voting against is own government. A leader of the opposition who has voted against the EU all his life, and now fully endorses the idea of the possibility remaining indefinitely if a trade deal cannot be reached. Or a contract with a ferry company that doesn't have any ferries!! I could go on and on.

The last one for me, was on Thursday, when it was being stated that the Lords might filibuster to prevent the passing of the bill requiring a delay. An extraordinary idea suggested by government sources and reported by the media, given that the House of Lords is stuffed full of Remainers. I mean who is the press and the political spin meisters pushing this narrative trying to fool, because it isn't anyone with half a brain.

These politicians in their schemes and plotting, of untruths and contradictions surrounding Brexit have done immense damage to the Country and continue to do so.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fSygWN-qMfY
I don't know this Irish guy is a Remainer or a Leaver but I must say he is right. A simple answer to the heckler would be that Parliament has tied his hands which is why he cannot negotiate, but Johnson doesn't say this and looks lost for words.

[Dante Von Hespburg]

Calm down my friend.'I 'd say this is another false part of this big charade. A desperate demonstration to the nation that Government is unable to deliver Brexit and unable to call an election to give the public the opportunity to break the impasse. SO....the next part carrying this charade further, is on Monday which brings legal proceedings, probably brought by that enigma Gina Miller, to block any attempt at Johnson ignoring the bill delaying Brexit. Then after much debate in newspapers about the desperate situation and the pound’s value tumbling, in early October a deal is suddenly produced which is in effect another May's deal with even more strings attached. Something which is neither in nor out and that neither Brexiteers or Remainers really want but have to swallow because... Well because there really isn’t any other direction is there, as Parliament have boxed themselves in so effectively.

I cast a very cynical eye over all the machinations over BREXIT, because if thre is one thing we know, contradictions there are a plenty. Whether it's a Chancellor who claims to have prepared for no deal, whilst being deeply against it to the extent of voting against is own government. A leader of the opposition who has voted against the EU all his life, and now fully endorses the idea of the possibility remaining indefinitely if a trade deal cannot be reached. Or a contract with a ferry company that doesn't have any ferries!! I could go on and on.

The last one for me, was on Thursday, when it was being stated that the Lords might filibuster to prevent the passing of the bill requiring a delay. An extraordinary idea suggested by government sources and reported by the media, given that the House of Lords is stuffed full of Remainers. I mean who is the press and the political spin meisters pushing this narrative trying to fool, because it isn't anyone with half a brain.

These politicians in their schemes and plotting, of untruths and contradictions surrounding Brexit have done immense damage to the Country and continue to do so.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fSygWN-qMfY
I don't know this Irish guy is a Remainer or a Leaver but I must say he is right. A simple answer to the heckler would be that Parliament has tied his hands which is why he cannot negotiate, but Johnson doesn't say this and looks lost for words.

I in some ways of course hope you are right in terms of this being merely more dumb talk to 'big up' their position. However for it to be raised at all, and for MP's like IDS to support it in the first place is a major issue in terms of rhetoric and into the 'inner thinking' of the Governments conception of holding power, its very troubling and makes them unfit for office. Especially as the implication is that the legal system would be 'anti-brexit' (Which it clearly isn't given than its in both Scotland and England voted to uphold the Governments right to prorouge parliament citing it is a 'political matter'), as you highlight here in terms of the spin used, rhetoric matters. So while i hope what you say is correct, it is still an issue (and god forbid Boris actually does this Monday).

[Cope]

I in some ways of course hope you are right in terms of this being merely more dumb talk to 'big up' their position. However for it to be raised at all, and for MP's like IDS to support it in the first place is a major issue in terms of rhetoric and into the 'inner thinking' of the Governments conception of holding power, its very troubling and makes them unfit for office. Especially as the implication is that the legal system would be 'anti-brexit' (Which it clearly isn't given than its in both Scotland and England voted to uphold the Governments right to prorouge parliament citing it is a 'political matter'), as you highlight here in terms of the spin used, rhetoric matters. So while i hope what you say is correct, it is still an issue (and god forbid Boris actually does this Monday).

This crop of parliamentarians have already irreparably debased their own legitimacy by openly opposing the outcome of a free and fair referendum and deliberately obstructing a general election. Were the PM to refuse to sign the extension papers, it would not implicate the judiciary or law enforcement as being "anti-Brexit", but parliament itself.

Nevertheless, what Johnson should now do (in my opinion) is introduce legislation to override the Fixed-term Parliaments Act which includes a clause setting the date of a general election prior to October 31st. That would force the Labour Party either to acquiesce or to take the extraordinary step of voting down a call for an election and their own rationale for opposing one.

[Greyblades]

It would not be that extraordinary considering they already did that earlier this week, unless I'm missing something and a second rejection would be for some reason extra devestating.

Farage gave Boris a deadline, 31st October to leave the EU, if the UK doesn't the BP will compete in all Tory seats.Delay is not in Boris's interest.

That threat was intended to keep boris on side, unless he turns in the next few weeks and collaberates with the remainers I dont think farage will be interested in punishing boris for the machinations of remainers.

As for boris it seems more and more unlikely he will turn, what with the spectacular burning of bridges that was drawing the conservative wets into rebelling.

[Cope]

It would not be that extraordinary considering they already did that earlier this week, unless I'm missing something and a second rejection would be for some reason extra devestating.

The first time Labour abstained. This caused the proposition to fail since the Fixed-term Parliaments Act requires a 2/3 majority of all parliamentarians to vote in favour of an early election. Were the PM to introduce new legislation to overcome the FtPA, that would almost certainly force the Labour Party to vote it down, not simply abstain, if they wanted to block it. If the bill included a clause which set the date of an early election prior to October 31st, Labour politicians would be compelled to contradict their own rationale for opposing an early election (that they don't want the PM to facilitate a "no deal" exit during the campaigning period) if they were to try and prevent it.

That threat was intended to keep boris on side, unless he turns in the next few weeks and collaberates with the remainers I dont think farage will be interested in punishing boris for the machinations of remainers.

As for boris it seems more and more unlikely he will turn, what with the spectacular burning of bridges that was drawing the conservative wets into rebelling.

The ERG are currently in negotiations with Nigel Farage in order to secure an electoral pact. If it succeeds, it will be difficult for the remain contingent to overcome electorally because the liberals and New Labourites of the bourgeoisie detest Corbyn almost as much as they detest the idea of the United Kingdom exiting the European Union.

[Dante Von Hespburg]

This crop of parliamentarians have already irreparably debased their own legitimacy by openly opposing the outcome of a free and fair referendum and deliberately obstructing a general election. Were the PM to refuse to sign the extension papers, it would not implicate the judiciary or law enforcement as being "anti-Brexit", but parliament itself.

Nevertheless, what Johnson should now do (in my opinion) is introduce legislation to override the Fixed-term Parliaments Act which includes a clause setting the date of a general election prior to October 31st. That would force the Labour Party either to acquiesce or to take the extraordinary step of voting down a call for an election and their own rationale for opposing one.

For the executive to not pass into legislation the current legislation is in breech of law. It is dictatorial and and an absolute disgrace that its even being considered. The Judiciary ARE implicated by IDS's rhetoric- that if Boris is sent to prison (very likely in the case of breaking the law like this) that it makes him a 'brexit martyr'- no it damn well does not. It makes him a criminal and attempted dictator. The 'martyr' implies the courts are against him to martyr him. Its absolutely ridiculous.

I am all for the legislative solution you suggest, if Boris does that great, but breaking the law is a hell no as it destroys absolutely UK democracy, checks and balances and the basis of sovereignty and not only does it not replace it with a alternate democratic system like PR, but merely leads to an overbearing and overpowered executive with no real checks.

And its here that also the first point you made is open to discussion. The referendum was advisory, we all know that but then the big two (but not lib-dems or SNP, so i assume you are excluding them from this) stood on a 'respect brexit' platform in their 2017 manifestos- issue 1) Manifestos are not legally binding- which is dumb, but again is the Westminster system. My MP David Liddington stood on a platform of saying no to HS2 which would have caused turmoil in Alyesbury... once in (this was 2015 and 2017) he toed the government line, became a minister and then ignored totally his commitments.

2) MP's are not constitutional servants, its why they can vote according to their own conscious and indeed can be whipped by parties. The Public recourse is in 2022 to ditch them for someone else if they desire (who equally will toe likely simply toe the party lines- this is where earlier we were talking about the Westminster system- you said people, i'd argue entire system is flawed compared to PR which is essentially what you are advocating here that would see brexit carried out).

In that context, what your arguing is a perspective sure, and one that i mostly agree with- but the answer is that they haven't actually debased their own legitimacy at all by opposing the referendums outcome- again lib-dems, SNP and those representing remain constituencies can legitimately do as they please- and will suffer probably 0 consequences as their constituents voted remain. Those who are head leave constituencies (Or leave MP's heading remain constituencies) can act (as they are allowed) as they wish, but at their own risk at the next GE. This is the parliamentary system (and again the system i deem unfit for the modern age- but that's a broader point).

Now sure i'm all for changing it, making it far more accountable (as currently it is not, and is designed not to be) but you do that properly, through reforms, the current idea of the Government simply seizing control is not ok on any level, and to potentially as it seems you might be saying, to argue that its fine because Parliament already shot itself in the foot and has no legitimacy is absolutely wrong. Its not an either/or, its both are wrong- however Parliament is actually working as its intended (Hence my point way back about referendums being respected you NEED to change the Westminster system first, because yes they can legitimately ignore brexit if they choose- the only public way of expressing outrage is through a GE, and a GE with FPTP is designed to muddy the waters and benefit 'established parties'- hence the Brexit parties major issues in turning high vote share into actual seats). The Government on the other hand are outright in the wrong to even think of pursuing that course as it smashes apart any semblance of democracy that the Westminster system has, it comes, unlike Parliaments various games, right up as being against the law, and replaces the current system not with a better version, but with an essential dictatorship.

In terms of your proposed pathway, an easier one is for Boris to pass the bill for royal assent (none of this talk of the Government destroying the UK's democratic basis), and then turn to Labour and say 'done, now vote for a GE'- their whole reason to avoid one disappears and of course the winner, providing they get a majority can change and amend legislation as they wish.

EDIT: The bright side if Boris attempts anything as ridiculous as has been batted around:

1. Not been in SW1 today, but a few snippets - concerns about direction of PM growing, fears among his allies he's ignoring any advice other than from Cummings da Costa - source says Johnson is meeting with those 2 at Chevening tomorrow, no ministers going

2. Not confirmed by No 10-but unhappiness at senior levels about lack of consultation over no 10's moves - hear Gove apparently kept miinisters back for 'political chat', after XO meeting today - source says just a regular thing, but some definitely worried + feel excluded

https://twitter.com/bbclaurak/status...26320446799877

From Kunessburg who is both a Boris hack, Tory Stooge, Corbyn supporter and part of the 'establishment' depending on who you ask. It would appear Boris is essentially a May Mk.2 in all ways, relying on a core of advisers and keeping ministers at arms length. Fingers crossed his party will thus keep him from ever getting to the stage of actually refusing to give royal assent to the legislation.