Thread: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

  1. #2421

    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alastor View Post
    Your first claim is unsubstantiated and constitutes a thinly veiled personal attack, so I will ignore that.

    Regarding elections, I'm under the impression at least that those are legally binding, not advisory. So there is a legal argument.
    Your point about "legally binding" elections is irrelevant: Parliament can legislate in whichever way it chooses, including, if it so chose, to invalidate the result of referenda which it had previously declared to be legally binding. It also possesses the power to legislate away general elections if it wanted. The democratic relationship between parliament and the electorate is based fundamentally on convention and trust.

    The public trust argument is also shaky at best, considering the large number of reported improprieties during the referendum campaign and the extreme polarization of the British public that followed. I would argue the events leading to the referendum happening in the first place and the way it did happen, laid the grounds for the erosion of public trust. The point is, the UK is already there and if there was the will then a second referendum could become morally viable, or at least morally viable as the first one was.
    There were not a "large number of reported improprieties" reported during the referendum, but even if there had been, these were overcome by parliament's acknowledgement of the legitimacy of the result first via the Withdrawal Act and second via the manifesto pledges of the Conservative and Labour Parties in the 2017 general election. Your vague argument about "the events leading to the referendum happening in the first place" is similarly baseless given the overwhelming assent that parliament provided the Referendum Act in 2015. So "the point is" that if successive parliaments, prime ministers and opposition leaders, after having unambiguously led the country to believe, both through words and legislative acts, that they would honour the result of the most important constitutional referendum of a generation, then turned around and ignored it, that would annihilate public trust in the democratic institutions.

  2. #2422
    Alastor's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by 95thrifleman View Post
    The problem remains, ironicly perhaps the first (hopefully last) time I agree with epicfail, that if we ignore or overturn the referendum we betray democracy and destroy faith in it. You'll end up with ordinary folk abandoning the democratic process and leaving elections determined by a small turnout of partisan fanatics.

    Also we could end up reversing brexit and losing scotland, they will damned well demand a second referendum if we run a second brexit one. Even if we do run a second and remainers win, brexiteers will be demanding another re-run and you can't exactly say "nope, no more re-runs, sorry" as you've already set the precedent.

    We'll be running referendum campaigns till bloody doomsday.
    And that is one of the many reasons I didn't agree with the first referendum to begin with. But as I mentioned earlier, public trust is already very low, you can easily find surveys that point to that, and partisanship is ruling the day. Scotland is bound to demand a second referendum anyway, if you leave the EU because they will argue, fairly, that the situation has dramatically changed and that gives them the moral grounds to demand one, if you call a second referendum and stay they are also likely to do as you say. So the question would be, which outcome on Brexit would better guarantee Scots will vote to stay in.

    My point is that the problems you claim calling a second referendum would cause are already reality. The UK is in crisis. The question should be now how to best cut the losses and return to normalcy. Though to be honest, considering it falls upon the same political class that created this mess to do that, I'm not very hopeful.

  3. #2423

    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sukiyama View Post
    Uh huh. Again back to the Norway question that you refused to answer. A country that is still largely autonomous, which all EU countries are, cannot be called “subjugated”. Even if Britain has no representation in EU, it can still do whatever it wants. It can enact its own border policies, its own trade rules, and its own regulatory standards within its borders. It will simply have to face economic consequences for doing so. Even if the worst case scenario is reached, it is unlikely that UK will have no negotiation power to change its situation in the EU. Lack of representation in EU bodies is not the end all, be all.
    What are you talking about? If the United Kingdom has no representation in the European Union but is bound by the regulations of the Single Market and the Customs Union then it is effectively subjugated for as long as it allows that scenario to continue. Parliament could always reverse any such scenario simply by passing legislative acts which severed the UK's association with the treaties.

  4. #2424
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    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by ep1c_fail View Post
    So "the point is" that if successive parliaments, prime ministers and opposition leaders, after having unambiguously led the country to believe, both through words and legislative acts, that they would honour the result of the most important constitutional referendum of a generation, then turned around and ignored it, that would annihilate public trust in the democratic institutions.
    This is why i said if there was the will, meaning political will, the second referendum could become morally viable. In the end this is all about maintaining an illusion. But thanks to the damage that continuously using democratic legitimacy for petty political gains has done the illusion is already cracking.

    For instance, according to a poll from 2018 40% of people queried have zero trust to the house of Commons and only 9% are placing significant faith in any layer of government.
    https://www.cps.org.uk/media/press-r...-in-democracy/

  5. #2425

    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alastor View Post
    This is why i said if there was the will, meaning political will, the second referendum could become morally viable. In the end this is all about maintaining an illusion. But thanks to the damage that continuously using democratic legitimacy for petty political gains has done the illusion is already cracking.

    For instance, according to a poll from 2018 40% of people queried have zero trust to the house of Commons and only 9% are placing significant faith in any layer of government.
    https://www.cps.org.uk/media/press-r...-in-democracy/
    1. I'll assume that your refusal to acknowledge my points regarding the legality of elections and parliament's recognition of the legitimacy of the result is an argumentative concession.
    2. The reason why trust in parliament is so weak is precisely because it has not honoured its democratic obligations; faith will be restored once they do as they as they pledged.
    3. The probability of there being a 2nd referendum is small; if the Europhiles (the people pretending they want a second referendum) manage to control the Commons they'll just revoke article fifty indefinitely.

  6. #2426
    Alastor's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by ep1c_fail View Post
    1. I'll assume that your refusal to acknowledge my points regarding the legality of elections and parliament's recognition of the legitimacy of the result is an argumentative concession.
    2. The reason why trust in parliament is so weak is precisely because it has not honoured its democratic obligations; faith will be restored once they do as they as they pledged.
    3. The probability of there being a 2nd referendum is small; if the Europhiles (the people pretending they want a second referendum) manage to control the Commons they'll just revoke article fifty indefinitely.
    1. Or rather I find the argument irrelevant. I'm not arguing a potential legal status of elections, but the legal status. The only legal leg the result of the referendum has is that parliament voted to follow it, but considering all the other votes parliament has made in addition to that it's a moot point anyway. Parliament has voted also to reject no deal for instance.
    2. If that is the case, then you would agree that one more time won't be what breaks the camel's back, bringing us back to my earlier claim that the damage is done. To choose this particular case for democratic grandstanding is nonsensical, considering the damage it has done and will do.
    3. On that I can agree. I also find it a more likely outcome than a second referendum. Which would allow them the excuse of reintroducing it later on to maintain the facade. And of course damage the EU, probably leading to my aforementioned worst case scenario. Which is why I, personally, would like the UK to just leave instead.

  7. #2427

    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alastor View Post
    1. Or rather I find the argument irrelevant. I'm not arguing a potential legal status of elections, but the legal status. The only legal leg the result of the referendum has is that parliament voted to follow it, but considering all the other votes parliament has made in addition to that it's a moot point anyway. Parliament has voted also to reject no deal for instance.
    You whined that the referendum had no legal legitimacy because parliament hadn't built in a clause which obliged it to act on the result even though any such clause could simply have been overcome by a subsequent act. This alone renders your initial complaint redundant. The actual legal status now is that Article 50 was triggered by the Withdrawal Act and "no deal" (which is really WTO terms) is the default result of that legislation. Parliament voting to reject "no deal" is irrelevant because that vote was not binding.

    2. If that is the case, then you would agree that one more time won't be what breaks the camel's back, bringing us back to my earlier claim that the damage is done. To choose this particular case for democratic grandstanding is nonsensical, considering the damage it has done and will do.
    It isn't the referendum which is doing the damage; the damage is being done by a political class which is more wedded to its internationalist fantasies than it is to taking instruction from the electorate. Your argument about "grandstanding" is comically desperate: if people can't take a stand over a major constitutional referendum which was repeatedly legitimized by the sovereign body both legally and in spirit then England might as well just forget the whole democracy idea altogether.

  8. #2428
    Alastor's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by ep1c_fail View Post
    You whined that the referendum had no legal legitimacy because parliament hadn't built in a clause which obliged it to act on the result even though any such clause could simply have been overcome by a subsequent act. This alone renders your initial complaint redundant. The actual legal status now is that Article 50 was triggered by the Withdrawal Act and "no deal" (which is really WTO terms) is the default result of that legislation. Parliament voting to reject "no deal" is irrelevant because that vote was not binding.
    I "whined"? I see the respect you show to your interlocutors remains as high as ever. Apart from that there is a difference to be made between constitutional law, which defines the way that the political system functions, ie elections and other laws. In the UK, without a codified constitution the line is more blurred true, but it doesn't excuse your attempt to collate elections with a non-binding referendum. It's a facetious argument to make that revoking article 50 and banning elections are anywhere near the same thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by ep1c_fail View Post
    It isn't the referendum which is doing the damage; the damage is being done by a political class which is more wedded to its internationalist fantasies than it is to taking instruction from the electorate. Your argument about "grandstanding" is comically desperate: if people can't take a stand over a major constitutional referendum which was repeatedly legitimized by the sovereign body both legally and in spirit then England might as well just forget the whole democracy idea altogether.
    I agree that the damage is being done by the political class, but I will counter point that their primary interests are simply selfishness and petty power games, not some overarching internationalist ideology. And the grandstanding is what led to the legitimization of that referendum by parliament, it's not the other way around.

  9. #2429

    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alastor View Post
    I "whined"? I see the respect you show to your interlocutors remains as high as ever.
    Spare me the pearl clutching.

    Apart from that there is a difference to be made between constitutional law, which defines the way that the political system functions, ie elections and other laws. In the UK, without a codified constitution the line is more blurred true, but it doesn't excuse your attempt to collate elections with a non-binding referendum. It's a facetious argument to make that revoking article 50 and banning elections are anywhere near the same thing.
    Simply stating that the referendum was "non-binding" over and over is irrelevant prattle: it makes no functional difference for the reasons explained.

    I agree that the damage is being done by the political class, but I will counter point that their primary interests are simply selfishness and petty power games, not some overarching internationalist ideology. And the grandstanding is what led to the legitimization of that referendum by parliament, it's not the other way around.
    Well at least you're conceding to the legitimacy of the referendum now.

  10. #2430
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    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by ep1c_fail View Post
    Spare me the pearl clutching.
    Pointing out your lack of respect for the people you discuss with is pearl clutching now?
    Quote Originally Posted by ep1c_fail View Post
    Simply stating that the referendum was "non-binding" over and over is irrelevant prattle: it makes no functional difference for the reasons explained.
    The reasons explained also show that it's a matter of political will for it to matter or not. Democracies have survived going against referenda before.
    Quote Originally Posted by ep1c_fail View Post
    Well at least you're conceding to the legitimacy of the referendum now.
    Did I ever say the UK parliament didn't vote to leave? No. The referendum by itself has no legal weight, parliament can choose to give or take away that weight. If anything this claim otherwise is a tool used by the political class to shift the onus for this mess to the people. The ones that don't benefit in any case.

  11. #2431
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    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Well the referendum has huge political and moral weight. That’s why it’s worth listening to.
    Patronised by Pontifex Maximus

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Nope. There is nothing to suggest dramatically that his heart is giving out. His heart attack is a testament to how well he can recover from something like that.

  12. #2432
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    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aexodus View Post
    Well the referendum has huge political and moral weight. That’s why it’s worth listening to.
    Why does it have a bigger moral weight than the moral weight a potential second one would have? Besides, nobody said anything about not listening, but listening does not necessarily mean obeying.

  13. #2433

    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alastor View Post
    Pointing out your lack of respect for the people you discuss with is pearl clutching now?
    Get off your high horse; no one cares if you were triggered because I accused you of whining (which you were).

    The reasons explained also show that it's a matter of political will for it to matter or not. Democracies have survived going against referenda before.
    All you're doing here is proving how irrelevant your original point was. Whether parliament had built extra layers of legalism into the referendum bill is inconsequential: the Common's "political will" can be used to trump any preexisting legislation with yet more legislation. If parliament had wanted to ignore the result of the referendum it could have done so even if had legally compelled itself to follow through on the outcome in the 2015 Act.

    Did I ever say the UK parliament didn't vote to leave? No. The referendum by itself has no legal weight, parliament can choose to give or take away that weight. If anything this claim otherwise is a tool used by the political class to shift the onus for this mess to the people. The ones that don't benefit in any case.
    You still don't get it. Whether the referendum had "legal weight" in and of itself is not only factually untrue (in the sense that the Referendum Act was legal) it is also immaterial to the point you're making. The democratic legitimacy that the referendum carried was more than sufficient for parliament to enshrine the result in law. No one cares whether or not the state legally obliged itself to follow through with the result in the Referendum Act; it makes not one jot of difference.

  14. #2434
    Alastor's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by ep1c_fail View Post
    Get off your high horse; no one cares if you were triggered because I accused you of whining (which you were).
    Uhuh, first you belittle the people you are discussing with, then you attack them for pointing it out. Quality debating here.

    Quote Originally Posted by ep1c_fail View Post
    All you're doing here is proving how irrelevant your original point was. Whether parliament had built extra layers of legalism into the referendum bill is inconsequential: the Common's "political will" can be used to trump any preexisting legislation with yet more legislation. If parliament had wanted to ignore the result of the referendum it could have done so even if had legally compelled itself to follow through on the outcome in the 2015 Act.
    Pointing out that parliament can choose to ignore the referendum proves how irrelevant my original point was? My original point was there is nothing that makes this referendum binding. That supports my point.

    Quote Originally Posted by ep1c_fail View Post
    You still don't get it. Whether the referendum had "legal weight" in and of itself is not only factually untrue (in the sense that the Referendum Act was legal) it is also immaterial to the point you're making. The democratic legitimacy that the referendum carried was more than sufficient for parliament to enshrine the result in law. No one cares whether or not the state legally obliged itself to follow through with the result in the Referendum Act; it makes not one jot of difference.
    And did I say the referendum was illegal? What are you arguing against here? And if noone cares whether the government was obliged to or not, which btw is not true, maybe all these people should get a bit better informed on the ways their political system functions.

  15. #2435

    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by ep1c_fail View Post
    This isn't a nuclear crisis: a clean exit from the European treaties is in both parties best interests. The worst case scenario would be either if the United Kingdom doesn't leave or if it leaves on terms which leave it in a state of effective subjugation.
    The EU is terrified that if the UK does fine after Brexit, then Italy will flip the table within the next decade, meaning that the EU would lose in two shots 26% of its budget. So their best scenario is actually the UK not leaving at all and Brexiteers humiliated, followed by the UK leaving with a deal. With this mentality it's obvious that it becomes a race to the bottom.

  16. #2436

    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alastor View Post
    Uhuh, first you belittle the people you are discussing with, then you attack them for pointing it out. Quality debating here.
    No, not "people", you. And given your history on this subject I couldn't care less. If you want my "respect" you can earn it.

    Pointing out that parliament can choose to ignore the referendum proves how irrelevant my original point was? My original point was there is nothing that makes this referendum binding. That supports my point.
    No, your original point was to whine about how the referendum lacked meaning/legitimacy because, among other things, its outcome wasn't binding in law at the time that it was held. As shown repeatedly this position is fundamentally inconsequential; the only time it was marginally relevant was prior to the parliamentary assent given to the Withdrawal Act.

    And did I say the referendum was illegal? What are you arguing against here? And if noone cares whether the government was obliged to or not, which btw is not true, maybe all these people should get a bit better informed on the ways their political system functions.
    I quoted, and debunked, exactly what you said - that the referendum had "no legal weight". No one cares whether the government was legally obliged (not obliged in general) to honour the result because a) they accepted the obligation legislatively two years ago b) they could just as easily have rejected a binding legal clause built into the Referendum Act as they could overturn the Withdrawal Act.

  17. #2437
    Alastor's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by ep1c_fail View Post
    No, not "people", you. And given your history on this subject I couldn't care less. If you want my "respect" you can earn it.

    No, your original point was to whine about how the referendum lacked meaning/legitimacy because, among other things, its outcome wasn't binding in law at the time that it was held. As shown repeatedly this position is fundamentally inconsequential; the only time it was marginally relevant was prior to the parliamentary assent given to the Withdrawal Act.

    I quoted, and debunked, exactly what you said - that the referendum had "no legal weight". No one cares whether the government was legally obliged (not obliged in general) to honour the result because a) they accepted the obligation legislatively two years ago b) they could just as easily have rejected a binding legal clause built into the Referendum Act as they could overturn the Withdrawal Act.
    I have to earn your respect? What an egotistical thing to say. No my dear boy, I don't have to do anything and I don't give a rat's ass if I have your respect or not. But I do care about you treating me with respect when you interact with me, even if you don't respect me. And you are required to do that by the rules, it's mudpit's rule number 1 in fact. So I expect that you will conform, much more so considering you are one of the so-called citizens, supposedly an exemplar of TWC's best character.

    The rest is a mix of borderline trolling and pedantic sophistries and I have better things to do at this time than respond to that. Ah and before the adolescent in you starts jumping up and down in celebration, let's make it clear this doesn't mean I concede anything. You haven't earned a concession. I simply can't be bothered to deal with your toxicity and your now.

    If anyone else wishes to discuss my question/topic, while not behaving like an asshat, let me know.

  18. #2438

    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alastor View Post
    I have to earn your respect? What an egotistical thing to say. No my dear boy, I don't have to do anything and I don't give a rat's ass if I have your respect or not. But I do care about you treating me with respect when you interact with me, even if you don't respect me. And you are required to do that by the rules, it's mudpit's rule number 1 in fact. So I expect that you will conform, much more so considering you are one of the so-called citizens, supposedly an exemplar of TWC's best character.
    Cope

    The rest is a mix of borderline trolling and pedantic sophistries and I have better things to do at this time than respond to that. Ah and before the adolescent in you starts jumping up and down in celebration, let's make it clear this doesn't mean I concede anything. You haven't earned a concession. I simply can't be bothered to deal with your toxicity and your now.

    If anyone else wishes to discuss my question/topic, while not behaving like an asshat, let me know.
    So once the vacuity of your arguments are exposed, you simply accuse me of "trolling", insist that you're not conceding anything and flounce off? How amusingly predictable.

  19. #2439

    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Got to love Jo Swinson's logic...


    Spending five years in a coalition government with the Tories = This is fine
    Consistently voting for austerity policies = Great
    Voting to cut disabled benefits = Brilliant idea, where do I sign?
    Voting to back Tory policies more often than Michael Gove? = No problem
    Joining a temporary Unity coalition with Labour to stop a No Deal Brexit? = Oh my God No!!! Are you mad?


    While I may not agree with them, at least the Tories have the courage of their convictions, Jo Swinson is nothing more than an unprincipled political opportunist.

  20. #2440

    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheLeft View Post
    Got to love Jo Swinson's logic...


    Spending five years in a coalition government with the Tories = This is fine
    Consistently voting for austerity policies = Great
    Voting to cut disabled benefits = Brilliant idea, where do I sign?
    Voting to back Tory policies more often than Michael Gove? = No problem
    Joining a temporary Unity coalition with Labour to stop a No Deal Brexit? = Oh my God No!!! Are you mad?


    While I may not agree with them, at least the Tories have the courage of their convictions, Jo Swinson is nothing more than an unprincipled political opportunist.
    I think you'll find the problem isn't Labour, it's Corbyn. Nobody trusts him, he's an unprincipled flip-flopper who should of resigned when he lost a no confidence vote and when he lost an election. I love the hypocrisy of lefties saying Boris has to quit if he loses a vonc, which i don't think he will.

    Quite frankly if anyone should lead a remain coalition it's the bloody lib dems.

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