Thread: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

  1. #2381
    Aexodus's Avatar Persuasion>Coercion
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    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Corbyn was supposed to resign in 2016 when he lost a vote of no confidence lol. He said somethting along the lines of ‘I have a mandate to the people not parliament’ to paraphrase.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Nope. There is nothing to suggest dramatically that his heart is giving out. His heart attack is a testament to how well he can recover from something like that.

  2. #2382

    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-49290926

    April to June, the economy shrinks 0.2%, July to September better show growth or we're officially in recession.

    But any recession has nothing to do with Brexit remember, that's just 'Project Fear'. The reason why the economy has shrunk is because we're not believing in Britain enough.


    So can I get everyone in this thread to close their eyes and just believe...


    That'll fix everything. Apparently.

  3. #2383
    Daruwind's Avatar Citizen
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    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    I think that the best for grow and stability is to have no-deal scenario with VONCed PM and impending election. Thatīs the spirit, the legendary setting for Total War.

  4. #2384
    Dante Von Hespburg's Avatar Sloth's Inferno
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    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by 95thrifleman View Post
    Why should Boris resign? Corbyn was, by parlimentary tradition, supposed to resign after he lost the last general election.

    Just watched the labour shadow transport sec harp on about how labour already has a deal ready which is basicly lock into all the EU rules without any say in the EU.

    Simple fact, if it gets pushed to the general election labour will be slaughtered by lib dems. Labour has lost the plot, even throwing independence at Scotland in desperation to get them to prop up a labour governemnt.
    Read my above post here: https://www.twcenter.net/forums/show...1#post15820410

    This applies to @Aexodus too- Parliamentary party VoNC's - yeah stupid to remain in power, but that's a party issue that doesn't really have immediate bearing on the healthy running of British democracy (which is already deeply flawed).

    But a PM and Government who refuse to resign after a Parliamentary VoNC, you cannot get more moronic or dictatorial. The mandate is gone and it essentially ignores one of the few safeguards we have over the executive left. It is why no PM ever has refused to resign after a VoNC by parliament- its essentially the law, but because the Westminster system is complete crap being built on the assumption of a series of gentleman's agreements to enforce its structures, instead of a written constitution, we're left with this, the last in a long line of blows Brexit has delivered (at the fault of both sides) that has made post-brexit Britain's democracy a very flawed beast indeed.

    What's worse we then have people genuinely cheering it on- Remainers with Letwin, and Brexiteers with Boris going as just displayed here 'Why should Boris resign' after losing his parliamentary mandate (Its him and his Government that resign by the way- that's what people are essentially questioning here- the Government refusing to resign after a parliamentary VoNC).

    The reason he should resign is to seek a new one, at a GE. Its what a VoNC forces (Unless the Government can shore itself up within the 14 day time limit, or a new viable alternative comes forward- who should also seek a GE asap by precedent), what currently is being discussed is that this is ignored, and that also during a GE the Civil Service limitations on neutrality are ignored to push through a Government vision of brexit that is disputed (The civil service by sensible historical precedent do not push through major policies during a GE, especially when those policies are contested, or you get stupid things like Labour telling the civil service to nationalize the banking industry, prior to calling a GE and the Tories who are standing on a policy platform of being against this, get into power to find it has continued on, screwing over there position and core manifesto and destroying their ability to deliver- it makes the Civil service political).

    So you have complete stupidity now as some on both sides of the brexit divide feel that brexit/opposing it is more important than having a functional democracy after the first Brexit hurdle- and that is what the 31st is- its only the first flashpoint to a whole series of political battles that will be fought over the nature of post-brexit Britain, so way to go to all those idiots who will happily concede the longer-term picture to those potentially (either Remainers or Leavers) who might then start to do things they disagree with in a post-brexit Britain, but now without the due parliamentary scrutiny and democratic levers that might moderate, prevent or hold account of their actions, can easily get away with it.

    EDIT: And to add to the current mess, Boris essentially adding another moronic blow on Parliamentary democracy is absolutely pointless because of this:

    However, leading constitutional expert Professor Vernon Bogdanor argued that, even if the UK were to “leave” during an election campaign, it would not necessarily be the end of the matter.He said a new parliament could – with the agreement of the EU – vote retrospectively to extend the withdrawal process beyond the end of October.
    If that were to happen, it would be deemed that Britain had not in fact ever left and was still an EU member state.
    https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/n...DR0rO0mPGR4QT4

    For those who somehow have carried on being interested in British politics and its constitution without ever encountering Bogdanor, he's about as impartial as you can get on all this, voted remain but then attacked attempts to overturn the referendum result indeed in discussions with him, and also was rather hostile on the Irish-issue to the 'attempt British' sentiments being stoked- https://www.ft.com/content/7e22c576-...0-cbae5495d92b. Also in discussions with him i can say in a fairly assured way he kinda hates the EU (Which comes across anytime he talks about Thatcher, Wilson or Major). So we'll have destroyed the firm precedent of a Parliamentary VoNC acting as a safeguard to British democracy for essentially nothing. It's better for all sides to just call a GE, sort it out and whoever gets a democratic mandate to do as their manifesto stated.
    Last edited by Dante Von Hespburg; August 09, 2019 at 08:46 AM.
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  5. #2385
    Daruwind's Avatar Citizen
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    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Actually @Dante I heard something very similar in our radio show. There was as a host our Foreign Minister and his personal opinion (just theoretical) was that in case of such wild no-deal scenario pushed by Boris, EU might offer some kind of postponing period effective delaying brexit (say 31th December isntead of October) to allow UK home politics to get together. Pretext would be simply that EU is waiting for official responce from somebody elected in democratic election.

    He was not sure if UK would need to ask first EU and if at all there would be anybody with power to ask..(case of VONC PM, election...as only head of goverment/state can represent state on EU council and ask for extension) but EU might offer such one sided intermediate period until UK officials (new PM,goverment) would say it is not necessary.

    EDIT: important part was, that the EU offer would be one sided, without need for UK ratification by parliament. Basically waiting for official UK responce. It would effectively be up and running till UK says otherwise after elections... :-)
    Last edited by Daruwind; August 09, 2019 at 10:23 AM.

  6. #2386

    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Good point you made Dante regarding the neutrality of the Civil Service. as a body , they have had to put up with a lot of abuse since the earlier Cameron days. To be asked to put aside election Purdah would be a step too far, I'm sure senior officials would down tools at that point.

    I think Parliament needs to revoke Article 50 asap as an insurance policy, so it isn't usurped in this way again.
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  7. #2387

    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by mongrel View Post
    Good point you made Dante regarding the neutrality of the Civil Service. as a body , they have had to put up with a lot of abuse since the earlier Cameron days. To be asked to put aside election Purdah would be a step too far, I'm sure senior officials would down tools at that point.

    I think Parliament needs to revoke Article 50 asap as an insurance policy, so it isn't usurped in this way again.
    Remainers like to hide behind democracy when it suits them while willing to see democracy destroyed when it suits them.

    The British people voted in a referendum to leave the EU, why is that so hard for the remainers to accept? If no deal is the only way for that referendum to be followed, so be it.

  8. #2388
    Dante Von Hespburg's Avatar Sloth's Inferno
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    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by 95thrifleman View Post
    Remainers like to hide behind democracy when it suits them while willing to see democracy destroyed when it suits them.

    The British people voted in a referendum to leave the EU, why is that so hard for the remainers to accept? If no deal is the only way for that referendum to be followed, so be it.
    Except as i've pointed out both sides are literally as bad as each other when it comes to literally tearing apart Parliamentary democracy. Brexiteers and remainers from the get go have actively contributed to a real crisis of democracy, the precedents set will over the major issues to come for post-brexit, because the Government and opposition now have means either avoid parliamentary scrutiny and thus impose their post-brexit order (Imagine if the lib-dems and labour get in as a coalition, they can literally sign up a Norway deal, or even outright rejoin with 0 input from the other side potentially, or with the plethora of precedents broken Boris and May are giving to Corbyn, a Labour minority government can as the Tories have done, stack committees in their favour and use secondary legislation to bypass scrutiny or proper votes for major policies) or for the Opposition whoever that might be, they can effectively create binding legislation from forming a pseudo 'shadow government'. This is all because people on both sides partisanly cheer and boo the other for doing the exact same thing their own side are doing. The lack of critical awareness is troubling.
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  9. #2389

    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by 95thrifleman View Post
    Remainers like to hide behind democracy when it suits them while willing to see democracy destroyed when it suits them.

    The British people voted in a referendum to leave the EU, why is that so hard for the remainers to accept? If no deal is the only way for that referendum to be followed, so be it.
    The was a manifesto commitment for the Poll Tax. No-one complained when it was dropped as unworkable. In 2017 we we told there was 'no magic money tree', whilst Britain's infrastructure crumbled, life expectancy dropped and our police and armed forces cut to ribbons. Why is it now acceptable that billions are being thrown at this project to meet a self-imposed date when the UK is not prepared. Nothing in the referendum said Brexit must take place within the lifetime of a Parliament, let alone now.
    Absolutley Barking, Mudpit Mutt Former Patron: Garbarsardar

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  10. #2390

    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dante Von Hespburg View Post
    Except as i've pointed out both sides are literally as bad as each other when it comes to literally tearing apart Parliamentary democracy. Brexiteers and remainers from the get go have actively contributed to a real crisis of democracy, the precedents set will over the major issues to come for post-brexit, because the Government and opposition now have means either avoid parliamentary scrutiny and thus impose their post-brexit order (Imagine if the lib-dems and labour get in as a coalition, they can literally sign up a Norway deal, or even outright rejoin with 0 input from the other side potentially, or with the plethora of precedents broken Boris and May are giving to Corbyn, a Labour minority government can as the Tories have done, stack committees in their favour and use secondary legislation to bypass scrutiny or proper votes for major policies) or for the Opposition whoever that might be, they can effectively create binding legislation from forming a pseudo 'shadow government'. This is all because people on both sides partisanly cheer and boo the other for doing the exact same thing their own side are doing. The lack of critical awareness is troubling.
    I'm aware both sides are bastards.

    The simple fact remains that the British people vote to leave the EU and MPs are deliberately engaged in denying the will of the British people.

    I'd feel the same bloody way of labour where the ones trying to leave and tories the ones trying to stop it just to score points and force an election, which the lib dems would most likely slaughter labour in anyway.

  11. #2391

    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by 95thrifleman View Post
    I'm aware both sides are bastards.

    The simple fact remains that the British people vote to leave the EU and MPs are deliberately engaged in denying the will of the British people.
    Is the "will of the British people" something stuck in history? Unable to be legitimately changed? Are opinions illegitimate if they change with the availability of new information? When is the cutoff for when its ok to change your mind or not?

    I'd feel the same bloody way of labour where the ones trying to leave and tories the ones trying to stop it just to score points and force an election, which the lib dems would most likely slaughter labour in anyway.
    Well I'm sure that remainers would side with the tories and leavers would side with labour then. That's not really what the point is. Almost all modern political systems are based on representation, the exact mechanics differ but they are there. In times of crisis or hard policy decisions, that representation is also there to defy democratic will in favor of perceived public good. Democratic decision making can often lead to worse outcomes or self-destruction.

    In 1798, the XYZ affair prompted fierce war fervour in United States. This resulted in a limited naval war dubbed, the Quasi War, that lasted from 1798-1800. John Adams, the 2nd President of the United States, prevented escalation of the hostilities and eventually arranged a peace treaty with France. He did something deeply unpopular to avoid, what he saw, as a potential disaster. Arguably, the British government faces he same dilemma. It wouldn't matter which party was in power, they would all be deeply conflicted because the prospects are, a political disaster now, or political disaster later. The current political antics are all about attempting to find something that will resonate with the people regardless of a Brexit success or failure.

  12. #2392

    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by 95thrifleman View Post
    The simple fact remains that the British people vote to leave the EU and MPs are deliberately engaged in denying the will of the British people.
    The terroristic phrase "will of the people" is itself misleading propaganda. 52% of 71% of those registered to vote is not the will of the people, although I can understand how elected politicians in a first-past-the-post system have to pretend that it is, or they undermind their own position.
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  13. #2393

    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sukiyama View Post
    Is the "will of the British people" something stuck in history? Unable to be legitimately changed? Are opinions illegitimate if they change with the availability of new information? When is the cutoff for when its ok to change your mind or not?
    Yes because as we know, pursuing a scorched earth policy which institutionalizes constitutional abuses is a standard response from the defeated faction in healthy democratic countries. Maybe if Trump loses the 2020 election, he can just refuse to transfer the presidency on the basis that its "ok" for the voters to change their minds.

  14. #2394
    Aexodus's Avatar Persuasion>Coercion
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    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sukiyama View Post
    Is the "will of the British people" something stuck in history? Unable to be legitimately changed? Are opinions illegitimate if they change with the availability of new information? When is the cutoff for when its ok to change your mind or not?
    After the referendum result is delivered on is when we can say “actually, I’d like to join the EU” again. It would be stupid, it would be self-defeating, and it wouldn’t make sense. But there wouldn’t be anything wrong with it.

    On the other hand, having a second bite at the apple with a second referendum just isn’t right, it was a free and fair vote. The will of the British people on the EU is whatever the referendum said it was. You can’t change your mind after you vote. A vote is final. If I vote remain in the referendum, which I would have but for being too young, or voted Unionist at the general election, once I put my ballot in the box I can’t take it out again and change my mind.

    I fully agree with the remainer Jim Nicholson.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/irel...cted-1.3670583
    In probably his last annual conference as an MEP, Jim Nicholson told Ulster Unionist Party members on Saturday that he voted “Remain” in the Brexit vote, but that now the “Leave” result must be respected and implemented. He told the conference in Armagh, attended by more than 300 delegates, that when he voted to stay in the European Union he went “with the head not with the heart”.

    “And I wonder, those who said Brexit would lead us to the land of milk and honey, are they still so confident?” he added.

    But Mr Nicholson, who will be out of a job next year if Brexit goes ahead as planned because the UK will lose its MEPs, held to the line that the result must be applied and there must be no backstop deal that could lead to an effective border between Northern Ireland and Britain.
    Last edited by Aexodus; August 11, 2019 at 07:09 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Nope. There is nothing to suggest dramatically that his heart is giving out. His heart attack is a testament to how well he can recover from something like that.

  15. #2395

    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aexodus View Post
    After the referendum result is delivered on is when we can say “actually, I’d like to join the EU” again. It would be stupid, it would be self-defeating, and it wouldn’t make sense. But there wouldn’t be anything wrong with it.

    On the other hand, having a second bite at the apple with a second referendum just isn’t right, it was a free and fair vote. The will of the British people on the EU is whatever the referendum said it was. You can’t change your mind after you vote. A vote is final. If I vote remain in the referendum, which I would have but for being too young, or voted Unionist at the general election, once I put my ballot in the box I can’t take it out again and change my mind.
    Anyone who believes that the remain contingent of the Commons would ever hold another referendum on the United Kingdom's membership of the European Union is delusional. Were the Liberal Democrats, SNP and/or the Labour Party to hold sway in Westminster, they'd simply revoke article 50 and take no further action. There is no realistic scenario in which, were these people in power, they'd risk losing control again.

    Also I didn't know you were such a kid that you couldn't vote in 2016 xD

  16. #2396

    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    That's cute.

  17. #2397
    Daruwind's Avatar Citizen
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    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...-crisis-europe

    News that the British government is planning to withdraw from participation in EU meetings in the coming days is another ruse by Dominic Cummings and Boris Johnson to “send a message to Europe” that the UK is leaving with or without a deal. Pulling out from day-to-day EU business in this way only serves to further diminish what remains of British influence. But such a reckless PR stunt will have minimal impact on the Brexit outcome. Brussels negotiators are waiting instead to see if members of the UK parliament can get their act together and stop a no-deal exit in September.

    Meanwhile, however, I can see at first-hand how, step by step, Johnson is reducing the UK’s influence, making us less able to shape the policies that affect British people, from fisheries policies to the climate crisis.
    I get it with the message but it sounds to me like tunnel vision. In everything except state politics, this could works but international politics are built upon goodwill,trust and cooperation. Just in case the UK wonīt leave or even if it will, this move sounds as such childish and irresponsible one.

  18. #2398

    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by Daruwind View Post
    https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...-crisis-europe

    I get it with the message but it sounds to me like tunnel vision. In everything except state politics, this could works but international politics are built upon goodwill,trust and cooperation. Just in case the UK wonīt leave or even if it will, this move sounds as such childish and irresponsible one.
    Takes two to tango. Brinkmanship only works if both sides are willing to play.

  19. #2399

    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by Daruwind View Post
    https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...-crisis-europe



    I get it with the message but it sounds to me like tunnel vision. In everything except state politics, this could works but international politics are built upon goodwill,trust and cooperation. Just in case the UK wonīt leave or even if it will, this move sounds as such childish and irresponsible one.
    It's a game of chicken.

  20. #2400

    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    I agree, it is a game of chicken. The worst case scenario is that both parties are willing to allow the worst to happen. If one, or both back off at the last second, well... we are saved I suppose.

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