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Thread: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

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  1. #1

    Default Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    I must declare one interest, I have materially benefitted from the Brexit vote. Nonetheless, I think whatever side of the /Brexit fence people may fall, the shenanighans of the last week or so can only be described as farcical.

    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/poli...-a3711226.html

    I am going to argue that Brexit is undeliverable under this administration and that is is best if the UK revoke Article 50 and forget Brexit negotiations until it :

    - Has a clue what it's goals are

    - Has the capacity to deliver those goals

    - Whatever it does is in the interests of the country , not those of a political party

    - Explains to Parliament the impact of its propsals in full

    - Explains to the British people, properly, in general terms, the benefits or detriment arising from it's policies.

    I also suggest for the sake of common sense that a new Brexit proposal be put to a referendum.

    The current process looks screwed. The referendum called only for the UK to stay or leave the EU. It is perfectly possiblde to be outside the EU and stay in the single market (Norway) and /or the customs union (Turkey),

    Yet by calling article 50, commiting the UK to a process it has barely understood , let alone costed or impacted, and by ruling out the single market and customs union, the UK has been left exposed because the Irish government will not tolerate different customs rules across the border. Any fool could see that the propsed compromise, euphemistically called "regulatory divergence" effectively removing Irish border controls , would lead to Scotland Wales and even London demanding the same treatment and an Ulster Unionist veto. As I see it the government is too weak and inflexible to revisit it's red lines, partly to a botched election. What I also find extraordinary is that O Jeremy Corbyn prefers to leave the EU , like most on the far-left he sees e the EU as a boss's / globalist business organisation, a cross-party approach would have worked, possibly, but no this tightwadded administrated doesn't want the help.


    Am I the only one thinking this?


    What does the forum say?
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  2. #2
    Dante Von Hespburg's Avatar Sloth's Inferno
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    Default Re: Brexit-time to scrap it and start again?

    I'm glad you've made this thread mate (Also glad someone has thus far benefited from brexit ), i was considering doing something similar but honestly did not have the heart or strength to summarize the complete and utter hash that has been happening. I agree with your assessment here fully. Its almost ironic that its not the EU playing hardnball or anything that's causing us problems thus far, but inner turmoil directly created by Conservative incompetence- both on the part of May (who bears the brunt of the blame), and the so-called 'hard brexiteers' who seem to believe that 19th century free trade and 'nightwatchmen state' is still possible and desirable in a 21st century context of multipolar international politics and increasing regulation to match the gig economies flaws. What's worse i think is the energy spent on brexit (for nothing thus far) has meant that quite literally the real issues in the UK are going to not just unaddressed, but are increasingly getting worse (The social mobility commissions damning walkout on May the feather in the cap of a chain of disasters and ignored problems). Which as i think people like Nye are rightly saying now is putting British democracy in a rather precarious place, we are perhaps ironically lucky that thus far the 'populist' leader to have come forth in this rather bleak social and economic context is something like Corbyn. Its like the Conservatives have forgotten that for a liberal democracy to work with a market economy, it has to be shown to be 'working' for everyone and for its electorate to have a 'stake' in the system (In the UK this being culturally attached to property and home ownership- which of course is in crisis...)

    But to get back to brexit (You can see why i didn't create a thread, its legitimately depressing currently!). I honestly have not understood from the Conservative perspective why the hell after the failed election they didn't just do the 1920's solution- that being during the economic downturn that was then Great Depression the UK called a 'national government' of all parties in a coalition to deal with the crisis. This way May could have built a god damn consensus instead of being held hostage to economic incompetents like Boris, Moggs and co...and also to the DUP. Also the 'blame' for brexit (and lets face it brexit will likely 'kill' the party doing it- indeed we have political commentators perhaps prematurely, but with some truth calling this the 'death throes' of the Conservative party as it stands now- hence its zombie attitude on nearly all domestic fronts- they NEED a period of opposition)- can then be shared to all political parties, tarring all equally and actually bringing the country together instead of the huge gulfs in the electorate that exist currently (For instance the so called 'hard brexit combined with massive deregulation' advocated by the far-right of the Conservatives isn't even what most 'leavers' voted for- let alone 'remainers'- there is no 'mandate'- particularly with the election destroying the Conservative majority- so the fact such a small pressure group wields such undue influence is worrying to say the least).

    But for some reason instead the Conservatives are adamant that 'they' will do brexit- as if there is any kind of political capital to be gained... do they fear Corbyn's secretly a communist waiting to devour their party? Perhaps- but in a national coalition... he A) won't be capitalizing on every mistake they make as now and B) They can in turn influence him- instead what the Conservatives seem to be blindly pushing towards (from their own perspective at least) is an electoral cliff-edge that has a Corbyn government in full control with no 'limiting' factors- surely that should be a worse option for them?

    But yeah, rant over - its just merely perhaps quite a raw point for the UK to be so so incompetent generally- both on the domestic and brexit fronts. This latest issue with the Irish border (Where if anyone needs to know the context- a few weeks ago N.Ireland tried putting up signs saying 'Welcome to Northern Ireland' on the border with the republic...within days the signs have been shot, some set on fire and if the financial times are to be believed....taken away and blown up- now imagine any kind of checkpoints- its a cultural as well as economic and immigration issue) was dumb from the start- even the Tories original solution before their DUP masters forced them to U-turn at the 11th hour (Again how the hell when you rely on the 10 DUP MP's to prop up your government, could you 'forget' that they had painted a massive red line on the issue...i despair at May's frontbench) would have led to as now, the potential for the UK to break-up with other 'remainer' areas jumping on the 'They get special treatment, why not us'- it was so poorly handled.

    An interesting solution is a sort of 'enforced' federalization of the UK, which naturally Scotland and co would jump on- with key elements of foreign policy and affairs outsourced to the devolved parliaments, alongside greater lee-way in immigration and business concerns... which sure while being interesting- is a huge tasks in itself- one that i think if the UK who is ignoring domestic issues in favour of brexit...and not making any headway there, is incapable then of taking on such a creative restructuring- which leads back to your point mate that they need to go away and draw up a god-damn plan of what they want, how they want it and build an electoral and political consensus- that ideally brings all main parties on board, and unlike currently does not ignore the devolved administrations.... well at least the ones who aren't propping you up...
    Last edited by Dante Von Hespburg; December 05, 2017 at 02:35 PM.
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  3. #3

    Default Re: Brexit-time to scrap it and start again?

    Seems simpler to have a second referendum to clarify that the electorate really wants to undertake this rather labourious process, which is a tradition concerning EU policy, at least within the EU.

    Now that they had a very good view how this sausage is being made.

    May may believe herself bound by the original referendum, unless she wants to provoke a constitutional crisis, certainly with Boris waiting in the sidelines, ready to spring a coup if she falters.
    Eats, shoots, and leaves.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Brexit-time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by Condottiere 40K View Post
    Seems simpler to have a second referendum to clarify that the electorate really wants to undertake this rather labourious process, which is a tradition concerning EU policy, at least within the EU.
    I thought that was the whole plan. Delay it as much as possible, until a Labor government's in power, and then declare that since the electorate voted in a pro-union government, Brexit is no longer what Britons support. That is Europe's MO: hold one referendum after another until you get the result you want.

    Britain is not leaving.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Brexit-time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Legend View Post
    I thought that was the whole plan. Delay it as much as possible, until a Labor government's in power, and then declare that since the electorate voted in a pro-union government, Brexit is no longer what Britons support. That is Europe's MO: hold one referendum after another until you get the result you want.

    Britain is not leaving.
    Ignoring results of referendum is something that would take away Labor's legitimacy and build grounds for a coup or revolution. People voted Leave because they want out of EU, not because government is pro-Union. Not to mention that Labor would scare some of those Remainers who are not fiscally illiterate enough to support Labor's policies, thus making even bigger part of population support the notion of leaving.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Brexit-time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    Ignoring results of referendum is something that would take away Labor's legitimacy and build grounds for a coup or revolution. People voted Leave because they want out of EU, not because government is pro-Union. Not to mention that Labor would scare some of those Remainers who are not fiscally illiterate enough to support Labor's policies, thus making even bigger part of population support the notion of leaving.
    Remain is not a Labour position . It isn't even a left -right issue. I suggest you follow the spirit of the thread by following the example of the excellent posts spelling out the complexities of this issue.
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    Default Re: Brexit-time to scrap it and start again?

    I don't see how the UK can back away from a referendum result. The Brexiteers plainly lied, but all politicians do (the Stray group told their own bundles of lies too) and the people chose their path.

    You can break the constitution of the state "for its own good" "to save the state" and so on. Great Britain is not the most democratic state in the world (with the City having more say in many matters than Parliament), but it has some input from the people and their voice needs to be respected.

    To reverse this decision now would be a very retrograde step. Britain has to take its licks. The electorate will learn, or not, and its ignorance will be a factor in the survival of Britain great or otherwise.
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  8. #8
    Dante Von Hespburg's Avatar Sloth's Inferno
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    Default Re: Brexit-time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by Condottiere 40K View Post
    Seems simpler to have a second referendum to clarify that the electorate really wants to undertake this rather labourious process, which is a tradition concerning EU policy, at least within the EU.

    Now that they had a very good view how this sausage is being made.

    May may believe herself bound by the original referendum, unless she wants to provoke a constitutional crisis, certainly with Boris waiting in the sidelines, ready to spring a coup if she falters.
    That is indeed one solution being bandied around. I think another infuriating point is that May if she wasn't so inept would realize that actually she has a stronger hand than she thinks when dealing with the Tories- based on the simple fact that there is no viable candidate yet to replace her. Boris is even more unpopular in the polls than she is, as is Davis and co. Moggs despite a vocal minority is too toxic and not a unifying candidate. Rudd is barely holding onto her seat by a few votes at last count, Davidson is ironically there best hope...and she's an MSP. Gove who they seem to be grooming for replacement has made some hiccups again and hasn't quite been rehabilitated yet fully for the electorate. She could theoretically do as she pleases as beyond allowing Corbyn in due to an early election, she is guarenteed until a Tory candidate appears who is suitably unifying for the party, electorally popular, acceptable to all factions and who has competent and unifying policies- particularly for the young as Tory voter demographics have taken a dive for the worse. It will happen of course eventually, its just if its in time for the next GE- thus until then May will be able to within reason tell backbenchers to stuff it as much as she likes- and again due the parties ignoring of domestic issues, she can use what little political capital this does get her to reach out to other parties quite freely and further isolate the troublesome hardliners.

    This of course all relies on the premise that she realizes her political career is over and that she is just a caretaker- it is entirely possible that she believes she has a political future after this and thus is still trying to play the game... i can't imagine how delusional she'd have to be though for that .

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    I don't see how the UK can back away from a referendum result. The Brexiteers plainly lied, but all politicians do (the Stray group told their own bundles of lies too) and the people chose their path.

    You can break the constitution of the state "for its own good" "to save the state" and so on. Great Britain is not the most democratic state in the world (with the City having more say in many matters than Parliament), but it has some input from the people and their voice needs to be respected.

    To reverse this decision now would be a very retrograde step. Britain has to take its licks. The electorate will learn, or not, and its ignorance will be a factor in the survival of Britain great or otherwise.
    Only a referendum can overturn a referendum . But in seriousness, and in fairness to Mongrel i don't think he is advocating ditching brexit, merely doing what should have been done from the start and holding off on going further/ re-do it when we have a plan in place- and also the possibility of having a second referendum down the line.

    Of course you could technically have a referendum that is politically feasible if we do the lib-dems idea of a referendum on the final exit deal as the form of brexit was not on the first referendum. I don't personally think anyone would be fooled of course that it would be anything other than a 'do you want brexit now?' referendum- most British people did not understand or care how the EU works, didn't get its problems or its benefits and were more in tune with US political news that we have no control over, than the EU...who we did actually belong to- so to expect them to seriously understand if a leaving deal is 'good' or 'bad' would probably be asking a bit much...and this is from me who advocates direct democracy in nearly all walks of life- so the lib-dem idea basically relates to 'referendum- the return'.

    Technically too Parliament now get a vote on the final deal-so that's almost good. Except the Conservatives, like with their fixing the committees despite not having a majority and their proposal for the so-called 'Henry VIII' powers (No wonder their worried if Labour get in- all these extra-parliamentary tools and precedents they've created to avoid debates and votes in the House ), have managed to fix it so their would not be enough time to properly scrutinize the deal before a vote and are vague at best when it comes to what Parliament down voting the deal would actually mean (We go back to re-negotiate, or we crash out with 'no deal').

    Then of course the problem with the referendum is the Conservatives have rather just killed its legitimacy yesterday for the 'majority' argument- they were prepared to allow Northern Ireland specifically (Though now of course their backtracking- though the DUP still do not believe them) to have a different regulatory system that matches the EU's (I.e. Single market and customs union in all but name), and that would 'technically' be legitimized by Northern Ireland voting to 'remain' overall (The premise for why they were pursuing this option). This rather silly move for May has given Scotland and others more ammunition- as naturally if the referendum can be technically 'split' (as they have always argued) among the nations/ parts of the UK- why can't their 'will be respected'. Hence why there is some interesting discussion about how the UK will now probably have to federalize to provide any kind of 'unity' again.

    I still hold with my idea of their actually calling this the economic emergency it really is and bringing in all major parties in another national coalition with the express purpose to hash out the future path of the UK- its even got legitimacy behind it as the electorate specifically removed the Conservatives majority last election, and all major parties have 'Remain and leavers' within their ranks- from here build a consensus that can actually be grounded in electoral legitimacy- instead of the current ideological posturing taking place among factions in the different parties.

    I would also advocate the UK kissing the Commonwealths collective arses and starting to make up for decades of neglect, but on equal terms with all members (Unlike the idea advocated by some on the right of the political spectrum of 'Empire 2.0' where we can somehow return to the Commonwealth, impose our own reforms and expect Australia, Canada, New Zealand and India to go along with the process gratefully).... as quite frankly the looming prospect of a US trade deal (Who are all about protectionism under the current administration, and bilateral arrangements where naturally they hold all the cards, and who are on record stating brexit is a great opportunity to destroy British industries and market share- None of which i begrudge the US...just merely i'd rather not go straight from whatever way you spin it- a weak position in the post-brexit aftermath, into grappling in the arms of a Titan where we'd be held over a barrel straight away) where Britain is alone and desperate terrifies me for our economic future.
    Last edited by Dante Von Hespburg; December 05, 2017 at 04:29 PM.
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    NorseThing's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Brexit-time to scrap it and start again?

    I largely agree with Cyclops.

    In elections, there is great deal of lying going about. Some might say exaggeration or distortion or falsehoods that people do not know to be lies, etcetera. To say only one side lied or some such simply reveals your own personal bias on what is considered true. If truth were that simple to discern, we would not need elections or voters.

    As to another referendum as some have suggested -- when does that diminish the purpose of elections if you demand a recount until you get the result you want? That process would never end until a unanimous vote is obtained.

    The best for the UK is to exit, get a negotiated deal if you can, but exit. Sort out the national laws. Sort out the finances. Let the dust settle. Then either go about outside of the EU bureaucratic monster or ask for entry (reentry?) on the now going rate of terms for admission. In other words, finish the task started and stop grousing. I am pretty certain that most parents tell this to their own children. Maybe it should be told to the UK as well.

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    swabian's Avatar igni ferroque
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    Default Re: Brexit-time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by NorseThing View Post

    The best for the UK is to exit, get a negotiated deal if you can, but exit. Sort out the national laws. Sort out the finances. Let the dust settle. Then either go about outside of the EU bureaucratic monster or ask for entry (reentry?) on the now going rate of terms for admission. In other words, finish the task started and stop grousing. I am pretty certain that most parents tell this to their own children. Maybe it should be told to the UK as well.
    The best thing for the UK, apart from getting over the self-righteous finger from the continent, is to cleverly adapt and maneuver around an EU membership, which is what they will do. They always did and had to. If there is anything Brits can do, it's beeing too European for being European.

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    Muizer's Avatar member 3519
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    Default Re: Brexit-time to scrap it and start again?

    The political reality seems your entire political establishment is committed. The fact they they are reluctantly committed makes it quite impossible to make a u-turn without committing electoral suicide.
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    Dante Von Hespburg's Avatar Sloth's Inferno
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    Default Re: Brexit-time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by Muizer View Post
    The political reality seems your entire political establishment is committed. The fact they they are reluctantly committed makes it quite impossible to make a u-turn without committing electoral suicide.
    This is indeed the case, its a strange situation that basically is of their own making. Instead of consensus- which i would argue the result of the referendum and subsequent election should have led to- one giving no 'safe' majority either way, and the other making sure the Conservatives lost their majority- we have a weird squabble that is in essence party-political instead of national, for what brexit 'means'. The referendum result being used as some weird 'Support brexit, or your a traitor' by many different takes...all calling each other wrong. So the one pushed for instance by the Conservative libertarian right- for lower regulation, lower worker protections etc- its not a platform they would ever get elected on- Britain just does not have that tradition after a historically disastrous flirtation with the 'nightwatchmen state' in the 19th century- but its thought they could force their ideology on the country off the back of brexit (The tax-haven 'no deal' idiocy- which wouldn't work anyway from an economic perspective as the UK lacks the demographics and structures to be able to pull it off properly)- On the other hand the 'bespoke' deal is a pipe-dream that arguably has seen its death today in the Irish border issue, the concept of 'Empire 2.0' that some MP's bandied around is fantasy. The public are (rightfully, though for the wrong reasons i'd argue) concerned about a free trade deal with the US- so the idea of tumbling from the embrace of the EU, into the arms of the Yanks isn't a go ahead. There is just no actual practical solution being put forward that can work yet- beyond arguably staying in the single market and customs union as Norway does- but that means admitting to Britain's diminished global role- something that's fair enough, but a significant section of Parliament and probably the British public rightly or wrongly could not accept that.

    The amusing thing (If i wasn't here that is ), is that the vast majority of these 'red lines' and issues are of the UK's and specifically Conservative parties own making- A case in point just five minutes ago- David Davis came out and said that the Northern Ireland border issue wasn't an issue, the DUP misunderstood- actually the whole of the UK would adopt those regulations, not just N.Ireland alone... that basically means a complete U-turn on all Tory rhetoric up until now of not being basically in the single market or customs union. As 'regulatory parity' is just that. On top of that the DUP have made a statement that what May almost agreed to, they would never accept as it would mean a border between Northern Ireland and the UK- unacceptable to the unionists. The Tory hard-right (Moggs and co) have gotten angry because Davis's comment basically means that we'll still be following the EU in regulatory respects and basically would still be in the single market- something they don't accept...and when asked for clarification on whose right, Downing Street is silent. The governments just made a complete hash of things there.

    Its what i don't understand, brexit is electoral suicide either way- whatever party was doing it was never going to get back in, as 'remainers' would flock to other banners, and leavers were sold by Boris and co such a 'golden wishworld' of brexit- even in the short term- that even a really 'good' deal for Britain- will still not meet expectations, thus leavers will feel rightly betrayed. There's no electoral bonus to doing brexit, especially with the way its currently being done, there is your right though no electoral bonus for not doing brexit either- otherwise the Lib Dems would have seen a resurgence...though again the last GE's terms were dictated by Labour who made it mostly about domestic affairs, so it could be said it wasn't a true 'brexit' election. Its why again though regardless to flog my dead horse, i do not understand why no national coalition was sought, and why such an aggressive stance was taken by the Conservatives to brexit and the other parties early on... i get they thought at the time it was the way to kill off UKIP and win votes...and yet that backfired at the last General Election- so lord knows why they haven't tried to reach out, instead of as they currently are doing trying to keep as much 'in house' and away from Parliament as possible- as it means when the dust settles, the only people who can be blamed are them (and again, even a 'good brexit' will fall short of what was promised to us), thus their electorally stunted- combine this with their losing the 'safe economic pair of hands' crown, and the growing discontent that they are not actually doing anything domestically to solve the UK's myriad of economic issues (Which especially for the North, contributed indeed to brexit) and you have a government who seems to just want to collapse... but ideologically cannot bear the thought of losing yet- hence they'll stay ransomed the DUP, they'll avoid as long as possible a General Election (Though even the FT predicts next year now) and will attempt to in essence keep the three factions that make up the Tories...together, even thought it would actually be easier if they split as they should have done in the 90's between at the least traditional conservatives and pro-business conservatives (let alone pro EU anti EU).
    Last edited by Dante Von Hespburg; December 05, 2017 at 05:48 PM.
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    hellheaven1987's Avatar Comes Domesticorum
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    Default Re: Brexit-time to scrap it and start again?

    I always wonder why Theresa May did not just pick the hard way for Brexit, since it is quite clear Brexiters want it anyway.
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    swabian's Avatar igni ferroque
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    Default Re: Brexit-time to scrap it and start again?

    They never have been €-members, if i may remind you of that. Nevertheless, there is not really an easy way out and it's not like it doesn't have consequencs for "the continent" as well. It may be stupid, but it's undeniably brave in my opinion.
    Last edited by swabian; December 05, 2017 at 06:34 PM.

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    Default Re: Brexit-time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by mongrel View Post
    I also suggest for the sake of common sense that a new Brexit proposal be put to a referendum.
    To elect if it is Brexit time again or not? Even the Queen has given aproval by now..
    To be fair, a second referendum on this, if confirmed the Brexit side again, people would just call for a third one. And if it gave a remain, there would be another one, then another one, and so on ad infinitum.

    There's a reason you don't repeat elections too early except after something on the level of dissolving the parliement.
    It will be seen that, as used, the word ‘Fascism’ is almost entirely meaningless. In conversation, of course, it is used even more wildly than in print. I have heard it applied to farmers, shopkeepers, Social Credit, corporal punishment, fox-hunting, bull-fighting, the 1922 Committee, the 1941 Committee, Kipling, Gandhi, Chiang Kai-Shek, homosexuality, Priestley's broadcasts, Youth Hostels, astrology, women, dogs and I do not know what else.

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    Default Re: Brexit-time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by fkizz View Post
    To elect if it is Brexit time again or not? Even the Queen has given aproval by now..
    To be fair, a second referendum on this, if confirmed the Brexit side again, people would just call for a third one. And if it gave a remain, there would be another one, then another one, and so on ad infinitum.

    There's a reason you don't repeat elections too early except after something on the level of dissolving the parliement.
    But this is the leftist and neoliberal view of democracy. If the result is not what you want, accuse the people who voted for it, and then have them vote and vote again, until you get your favored result. This is what our PM did with his party, when they internally voted for something he didn't like. As for the referendum, such things are insignificant for stalinist fossils. When the result of our referendum came out as no, he just ignored it and turned it into a yes. Britain's political culture is too high for such a blatant disregard of the public's view, so EUSSR fans in the country are just calling for another referendum.
    So, the deal is to either conduct elections over and over again, until "we" get what we want, or to not hold any election at all (the EUSSR is quite allergic to referenda).

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    Dante Von Hespburg's Avatar Sloth's Inferno
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    Default Re: Brexit-time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by ioannis76 View Post
    But this is the leftist and neoliberal view of democracy. If the result is not what you want, accuse the people who voted for it, and then have them vote and vote again, until you get your favored result. This is what our PM did with his party, when they internally voted for something he didn't like. As for the referendum, such things are insignificant for stalinist fossils. When the result of our referendum came out as no, he just ignored it and turned it into a yes. Britain's political culture is too high for such a blatant disregard of the public's view, so EUSSR fans in the country are just calling for another referendum.
    So, the deal is to either conduct elections over and over again, until "we" get what we want, or to not hold any election at all (the EUSSR is quite allergic to referenda).
    'Leftist' and neoliberal are not one and the same mate, particularly in the UK's political context discussed here. There is an upsurge of the 'left' off the back of Tory incompetence over the last 7 years and inability of their 'right' to get to grips with modern economic issues- seen both in the last general election, but also recent polling (Labour are now in 'majority' territory according to survation- the only poll to get the GE and brexit right) regarding domestic affairs and brexit but they are not saying 'hold another referendum'- Indeed Corbyn's inner circle and he are against the EU as they see it as a tool for big business. The 'remainer' Labour MP's have all folded to Corbyn after his victory, and have accepted brexit, though with debates over if single market access should be sought etc.

    There is an argument to be made though that the Conservatives need to hold a GE soon or some form of referendum (though a GE is probably the easiest and most legitimate method...particularly as one is coming soon next year anyway- the last few days have been the death knell for any remaining beliefs surrounding the Conservatives ability to govern, let alone actually 'do' brexit) on the 'type' of the UK that will emerge from brexit though- thus far they have been incredibly undemocratic as i think everyone agrees in this thread thus far by secretly trying to set up the future of the UK in regards to employment rights, type of economy, environmental protections, devolved powers, Using Henry VII powers to allow ministers to change anything they fancy without a vote etc without having any parliamentary say so by avoiding parliamentary votes (Literally not turning up), hiding reports, weighting committees (even though with a minority government, its constitutionally wrong to do so) lying about documents and goings on behind the scenes (making Labour have to keep forcing votes in Parliament using a very old loophole to get the government to release domestic and brexit related documents for scrutiny)- indeed the Conservative 'hard right'- are trying to push for a deregulated UK that they know would be electorally unacceptable (Indeed the Conservatives lost their majority at the election, so i do question the legitimacy of their being able to make long-term decisions beyond brexit regarding the structure of the UK).

    Its the big irony that its not the 'left' being undemocratic- But the Conservative Party- who again are a strange mix of traditional conservatives, Thatcherites and 'New Labour part 2 (Or Cameronites as some have called them). All of them incompetent in their own way- The Thatcherites have no workable economic plan, Cameronites are advocating a different type of brexit which is cross-party...and yet keep putting the 'party' before this, and traditional Conservatives seem to have zombified on the domestic front, offering no solutions- let alone credible ones, and are fiddling while the party burns. This whole farce is made even more ironic considering it seems any criticism May has ever lobbed over at Labour, she ends up falling into 'Coalition of Chaos', 'Divided party', 'Strong and Stable', 'Safe pair of hands', 'Will of the people'- all the fan favorites- its like she predicts which up the Tories are heading towards next.
    Last edited by Dante Von Hespburg; December 06, 2017 at 10:26 AM.
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  18. #18
    caratacus's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Brexit-time to scrap it and start again?

    I am going to argue that Brexit is undeliverable under this administration and that is is best if the UK revoke Article 50 and forget Brexit negotiations until it :
    - Has a clue what it's goals are
    There is one goal and that is to leave the European Union, any negotiated settlement for trade relations is secondary,

    - Has the capacity to deliver those goals
    The capacity is only for the latter of these goals. The incompetence of the present government will lead to their punishment in the polls should the economy be damaged as a consequence of having no trade deals in place when the UK leaves the EU (either with the EU or any outside).

    - Whatever it does is in the interests of the country , not those of a political party
    It is not in the interests of any of the main political parties to leave the EU, and seemingly on the basis of what each has been up to since the vote, it isn't their intention to do so either .

    - Explains to Parliament the impact of its proposals in full
    The secretiveness off this whole negotiating process with Brussels is absurd and deeply suspicious. You have a PM yesterday who was quite prepared to agree the division of Northern Ireland from the rest of the UK without even having discussed it with the Northern Irish party by which she forms a government let alone the rest of the population.

    - Explains to the British people, properly, in general terms, the benefits or detriment arising from it's policies.
    That is called an election, which after yesterday, is likely to happen a lot sooner than 2019

    I also suggest for the sake of common sense that a new Brexit proposal be put to a referendum.
    No, we had a vote and we decided to leave, the fact that we have an incompetent and untrustworthy government to carry out the will of the people, doesn't invalidate the result in any way.

  19. #19

    Default Re: Brexit-time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by caratacus View Post
    There is one goal and that is to leave the European Union, any negotiated settlement for trade relations is secondary,
    Agreed, however, I suspect for party political considerations May that decided to add three conditions, leaving the ECJ, the single market and customs which makes things hellishly complicated and potentially very expensive.


    Quote Originally Posted by caratacus View Post
    The capacity is only for the latter of these goals. The incompetence of the present government will lead to their punishment in the polls should the economy be damaged as a consequence of having no trade deals in place when the UK leaves the EU (either with the EU or any outside).
    Agreed

    Quote Originally Posted by caratacus View Post
    It is not in the interests of any of the main political parties to leave the EU, and seemingly on the basis of what each has been up to since the vote, it isn't their intention to do so either .
    From what I gather behind the scenes the intention is defininitely there, it is just the execution is inept because of the bad choices made since Cameron fled the scene.

    Quote Originally Posted by caratacus View Post
    The secretiveness off this whole negotiating process with Brussels is absurd and deeply suspicious. You have a PM yesterday who was quite prepared to agree the division of Northern Ireland from the rest of the UK without even having discussed it with the Northern Irish party by which she forms a government let alone the rest of the population..
    Exactly, what kind of idiot would not anticipate that.Also disgusted that the impact assessments given to the House have been heavily redacted.


    Quote Originally Posted by caratacus View Post
    That is called an election, which after yesterday, is likely to happen a lot sooner than 2019
    That was a billion £ well spent??

    Quote Originally Posted by caratacus View Post
    No, we had a vote and we decided to leave, the fact that we have an incompetent and untrustworthy government to carry out the will of the people, doesn't invalidate the result in any way.
    The result is what it is. If only Cameron did the bare minimum of preparation before dumping the job on May's desk.
    Last edited by mongrel; April 14, 2018 at 10:02 PM.
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  20. #20

    Default Re: Brexit-time to scrap it and start again?

    As much as political establishment would love the idea, any attempts to thwart nation's democratic decision to leave EU by either hosting another referendum or outright ignoring actual referendum's results is a form of political harakiri and would erase whatever remains of its political legitimacy. Having said that, sanity and logic haven't really been the words that could be applied to UK's political establishment's decision making process, so nothing is certain.
    All in all the problem isn't in Briton's deciding to abandon the sinking ship, problem is in the incompetence and ineptitude of the political establishment itself.

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