Thread: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

  1. #2701
    Alastor's Avatar Vicarius
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    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by ioannis76 View Post
    And who says that, had they been "better informed", the margin in favour of the Brexit would not have been greater?
    A response for arguments sake mostly. You would agree I assume that everyone is better informed than they used to be now, perhaps not well-informed, but certainly better informed. So why not put that claim to the test? The will of the people is not immutable, what makes a second referendum a lesser form of democratic expression than the first?

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    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by caratacus View Post
    The haste! you call 3 years a rushed job? There is no reason to delay any longer, were at the end of the road mate. Too much time has been squandered already. The EU will not negotiate further, especially given our own parliament has tied the Government's hands by not being able to leave without a deal. If people think that we will go over a cliff, perhaps they should be asking why hasn’t a bridge been built, and only then might we agree what lies at the root of the problem, that is Brexit
    Can we please stop regurgitating this tedious nonsense that Parliament blocking a No Deal Brexit somehow tied the government's hands. The government had three years to come up with a deal and they came up with one that nobody liked. Boris said he would negotiate a new deal yet presented no evidence of one to Parliament or the EU itself. Let's not even mention that the threat of a No Deal Brexit was never a real bargaining chip to begin with.
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    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Just to add to my post on the last page about how Boris's polling for a GE has slid to dangerous territory:



    Con 30% -1

    Lab 29% +2

    LD 17% -3

    Brex 13% -

    Green 4% +1

    SNP 3% -

    UKIP 1% -

    Other 2% +1
    https://www.comresglobal.com/polls/t...eptember-2019/

    A Daily Telegraph commissioned poll from the 8th. This together with the several other polls i previously highlighted all from 7-9 show that essentially the early GE gambit is no longer safe for Boris, While again anything can happen during the campaign, there is now no polling lead to speak of (2017 May was ahead significantly), which typically in elections means its insane for the government to role the dice right now, but due to the overreach last week (Which i suspect has a big part of his drop in the polls and Labour's rise), he rather does not have a choice due to the 0 working majority.

    Again Lib-dems and Brexit party are being squeezed overall in all polls by the big-two. I'd also say it seems like both here and in the previous polls i posted that the Tories are bleeding 'centrist' Tories/Remainers who do not agree with the cull that happened or with Boris's actions, they are instead going towards 'independent'. This seems to be key in their not getting a majority now, certainly a GE will result in a hung parliament given all current polls- though a Lib-dem, Labour coalition (if such a thing could ever happen given their differences- though confidence and supply on brexit issues might be acceptable to both) could peg it. But more to the point, Labour have just as much chance as the Tories as emerging with an actual majority now.

    What's really interesting is that UKIP do indeed seem to be 'back' appearing here and in other polls on 1% (If you can call that 'back'), they previously have been wiped off the face of polling. I have no idea why honestly they're back, but there you go.

    Its interesting stuff.
    Last edited by Dante Von Hespburg; September 11, 2019 at 05:50 AM.
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    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dante Von Hespburg View Post
    This seems to be key in their not getting a majority now, certainly a GE will result in a hung parliament given all current polls- though a Lib-dem, Labour coalition (if such a thing could ever happen given their differences- though confidence and supply on brexit issues might be acceptable to both) could peg it. But more to the point, Labour have just as much chance as the Tories as emerging with an actual majority now. Its interesting stuff.
    This simply means a GE now will solve nothing and the best way out of this bad situation started by a bad referendum is another bad referendum n'est-ce pas? And what a sight that would be, a failed parliament/representative system that shirked its responsibility and asked the people a question they never should have asked, must now go crawling back to them giving them yet another impossible choice cementing their failure. As for Boris and his Conservatives... well they are simply out of touch to argue in favour of a GE at this stage really. It won't facilitate a breakthrough on Brexit and it won't benefit the party.

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    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alastor View Post
    You would agree I assume that everyone is better informed than they used to be now, perhaps not well-informed, but certainly better informed. So why not put that claim to the test? The will of the people is not immutable, what makes a second referendum a lesser form of democratic expression than the first?
    Because the second referendum will be as much (if not more) about the past 3 years than about Brexit per se. It will be to a very large extent about the so called 'elite' betraying 'the people'. The campaign will reach even greater levels of toxicity. Suppose 'remain' wins, it is out of the question that leave voters can reconcile themselves with that outcome because 'everyone was better informed this time around'.
    "Lay these words to heart, Lucilius, that you may scorn the pleasure which comes from the applause of the majority. Many men praise you; but have you any reason for being pleased with yourself, if you are a person whom the many can understand?" - Lucius Annaeus Seneca -

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    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by Muizer View Post
    Because the second referendum will be as much (if not more) about the past 3 years than about Brexit per se. It will be to a very large extent about the so called 'elite' betraying 'the people'. The campaign will reach even greater levels of toxicity. Suppose 'remain' wins, it is out of the question that leave voters can reconcile themselves with that outcome because 'everyone was better informed this time around'.
    I think the ship of reconciliation has already sailed. And arguably higher levels of toxicity would break the laws of physics. Whatever the case may be though the facts remain. Parliament is hung and a GE will give another hung parliament, laying bare for all to see the massive divisions in British society at the moment. Retaining the status quo and deferring the question to the next generation would be a reasonable approach in light of that imo. But even if you want to toe the "referenda MUST be obeyed" line, then still a referendum on accepting no-deal or not would make sense. Particularly considering no-deal was not really on the table during the previous referendum. It was more like staying in, or leaving with a deal. I remember Brexiteers posturing in fact about how easy said deal would be.

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    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    What´s more in current situation probably no heavy change of political system can go live. In current situation the Scotland might be real winner. As long as UK and mostly English part is occupied with Brexit question, Scotland might get enough space to actually get independence and same goes on with NI....

    And about possible Spain blocking Scotland I read interesting czech article. Possible future situation is not so simple as it seen. In case Scotland re-joining EU, the parent state will be off EU while in case of Spain/ Catalonia the parent state will be still member of EU and thus can easily argue to block Catalonia. But what more, Spain is not having any so complex situation which might allow Catalonia to get succession. While UK is having deep with brexit question thus creating opportunity for Scotland...And Why would Spain agree at all? Because Spain will get support for Gibraltar question. Talks will be hard but if there are any bargain chips, why not.

    And back to second referendum. The longer current deadlock situation will go on, the more possible second referendum will be as what else you can try? There is no majority for deal, for no deal, for remain in parliament, new one will be probably the same so what then...

    EDIT: to put it simple. If election solves nothing, that would be second in row. So it might be good idea to try second ref instead of third elections
    Last edited by Daruwind; September 11, 2019 at 05:57 AM.
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    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alastor View Post
    I think the ship of reconciliation has already sailed.
    If there's no intent to convince people, then why bother with arguments for a second referendum? To placate the remainer conscience?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alastor View Post
    And arguably higher levels of toxicity would break the laws of physics.
    You could be in for a nasty surprise.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alastor View Post
    Whatever the case may be though the facts remain. Parliament is hung and a GE will give another hung parliament, laying bare for all to see the massive divisions in British society at the moment. Retaining the status quo and deferring the question to the next generation would be a reasonable approach in light of that imo.
    Reason. That ship has sailed

    Quote Originally Posted by Alastor View Post
    But even if you want to toe the "referenda MUST be obeyed" line,.
    It's not about the morality of following a referendum as much as it is about recognizing that the referendum has itself changed British society and politics profoundly and continues to do so. That's irreversible and needs to be taken into account. There's no 'undo button'.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alastor View Post
    still a referendum on accepting no-deal or not would make sense. Particularly considering no-deal was not really on the table during the previous referendum. It was more like staying in, or leaving with a deal. I remember Brexiteers posturing in fact about how easy said deal would be.
    That would make sense. One mistake of the original referendum was not to give options that were ready for implementation. That can to some extent being corrected by offering a choice between a particular deal and no deal. I just don't think putting remain back on the ballot is a wise choice. And yes, that will mean the UK ends up with a deal nobody is happy with. That's the price it pays for ing up the first referendum, execution and outcome.
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    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by Muizer View Post
    If there's no intent to convince people, then why bother with arguments for a second referendum? To placate the remainer conscience?
    I was not commenting on intention. But on the feasibility of any kind of such reconciliation at this stage. My point basically being, right now a way out is needed, reconciliation will have to wait.

    Quote Originally Posted by Muizer View Post
    Reason. That ship has sailed
    Was there even such a ship to begin with?

    Quote Originally Posted by Muizer View Post
    It's not about the morality of following a referendum as much as it is about recognizing that the referendum has itself changed British society and politics profoundly and continues to do so. That's irreversible and needs to be taken into account. There's no 'undo button'.
    And why is that a problem? The situation has changed. In light of that new situation the opinion of the majority has also shifted. Sound reasonable. I didn't say anything about an undo button, never did I claim dr Who will come to the rescue.

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    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by Muizer View Post
    That would make sense. One mistake of the original referendum was not to give options that were ready for implementation. That can to some extent being corrected by offering a choice between a particular deal and no deal. I just don't think putting remain back on the ballot is a wise choice. And yes, that will mean the UK ends up with a deal nobody is happy with. That's the price it pays for ing up the first referendum, execution and outcome.
    Why there cannot be three choices? No del, deal, remain? If you are asking people, you can as well ask them properly. If the majority is now for remain you would deny them the choice...not democratic at all. ;-)
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    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    The issue simply (and this is one of Boris's and Cummings own making entirely i'm afraid) is that they overreached massively last week in terms of proruging (which is now a real quagmire for them- there are some lawyers saying given the Scottish Courts ruling, MP's can now just re-open it even without the coming Supreme Court ruling on the issue). culling the 21 (which lost Tory centrist support in the polls, and destroyed his own majority) and also 'doing a May' by keeping himself distant from his Cabinet and Party and simply relying on a small cadre of advisers, of who the chief is not even interested in the Tory party particularly (Which has seen growing Cabinet and backbench disquiet at Boris and Cummings as well as resignations from his brother and Rudd- who was surprisingly still there indeed).

    This has also made Boris polarizing (https://www.ft.com/content/7fc3ca7c-...4-b5ded7a7fe3f), while of the leaders he still beats Corbyn, essentially no one is popular. So the reason the Tories put Boris in the 'rock star' is dead. He suffers just as much as Corbyn does in reaching across electoral lines in a significant way (particularly with brexit as a new electoral divide), not great for a GE now. A factor to consider here too is that for Conservative electoral campaigns their leaders feature far more heavily than Labour- Not just May's attempt at a presidential campaign, but going back to Cameron and then the ill-fated Hauge and co- Tory HQ is more centralized and streamlined (usually an advantage) than its Labour counterpart who is decentralized- this was most clearly seen in 2017 when Labour accidentally had a genius stroke of 'Corbyn areas' being plugged by 'Vote Labour- get Corbyn', while out of unease and anger other Labour MP's in the North East actually ran without ever mentioning their lady, instead concentrating on local issues and actively saying 'forget Corbyn, i'm here'. This is something the Tories find much harder to do, but it could be a significant advantage to Labour (In an area where any advantage is needed given polling)- essentially multiple levels of obstrifucation.


    These moves, most of which Boris self-inflicted have now ruined any real Government lead in the polls for a GE. Hung Parliament likely, but alternatively Labour are now just as likely to get a majority and certainly will find it easier to get a coalition government. However, it means a GE is no longer a clear way forward for the Government.

    However, Boris through his own actions has decimated his own majority, so a GE is NEEDED by the government, otherwise they are at the mercy of the opposition- VoNC's and all, particularly if it comes back Parliament must be re-opened. But not merely for Brexit, after the 31st comes the real important battles (Even if we have left) and Boris is now totally unable to do anything. A GE after the 31st also is just as dicey.

    So while a second referendum may provide a salve for Brexit currently (Though as i know we all essentially agree- the result of a 2nd Referendum no matter which way does nothing to 'settle' brexit, even if we leave with a deal, there is still huge political capital to be made by all parties from hammering up the brexit divides as it provides a way to reach voters that would otherwise be unreachable) but what's worse is a GE HAS to happen, but now is very up in the air- it most likely will indeed (safe bet here) result in an equally hung parliament which the DUP still cannot 'breach' for the Tories- in this case the UK is well and truly in crisis, thanks to Boris's poor political handling and mistakes.

    Any kind of second referendum too has issues- for instance Boris cannot offer one- it'll see any current polling he has drop as the Brexit party rise again (though even under May when they were 23% they were not 'enough' to actually properly threaten the taking seats, at best it was knife-edge, but most likely they would get very few due to FPTP, but simply that they would mire the Tories and see 'third-wheel' beneficiaries), even if its 'no-deal' or 'deal' as also here Boris has electoral issues- He seems to be seeking simply a changed back-stop, however the ERG are firmly against this, many preferring a total renegotiation and others wanting no-deal. Likewise its unlikely the opposition will help him out given the contempt his current moves have shown (but more importantly how he's ruined his own position- its in their interest for Boris to keep spinning but going nowhere).

    The Opposition though have all committed essentially that 'remain' must be on the ballot, and that the alternative to that is simply a 'viable brexit' (i.e. Brexit with a deal- probably Norway-esque). However the Lib-dems are expected to come out at their party conference with a full on commitment to simply revoking article 50- the field has shifted back towards that angle and typically instead of using now as a time of compromise, the current 'winners' on the soft-brexit side, shift more towards Remain (Just as Boris when it was his 'winning' time went, and also May dug their heels in further on leave. Compromise just isn't going to happen, so i suspect a second referendum will not be taking place. If one does, it'll be arguably only a temporary salve (As remain means we cancel it and get on with other things, but again- political capital to be made from all parties, so it won't ever go away), likewise if it comes out as pro-brexit, of course remain leaning parties will continue as they are because again there is political capital to be made. It certainly will only see 'remain' or a form of leave on the ballot paper given the parties promoting a second ref.

    The only 'game changer' i can see currently is IF the Supreme Court upholds the Scottish Courts decision that prorogation was unlawful (and subsequently illegal) then as has been commented all over the place today, Boris will be forced to resign, either by his own party (who are apparently growing in disquiet at his PM-ship) or by a returning opposition. This will re-set the board somewhat... though in ways i'm not really confident of predicting yet- needs more look in, but tentatively it might see the Tories resigned to the backbenchers at any new GE as they have to re-orientate and repair the damage to the 'broad church' Boris has done. Though again- i'd need to have a proper look into this before confidently stating anything like that, Labour's not exactly on its own an 'instant winner'.
    Last edited by Dante Von Hespburg; September 11, 2019 at 06:56 AM.
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    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    But Dante what can possibly settle Brexit at this point? I mean all this is well and good but the clock is still ticking. A GE solves nothing, at this stage, I believe we can agree on that. Even if there is a government that somehow miraculously gets a vote of confidence it will be shaky and in a precarious position, unable to force its policy. Just like May was unable to.

    I believe firmly that the referendum should have never happened. I also believe that Brits need to get their heads out of their asses and realize that their British Empire is dead and buried and we are stronger together. But since that apparently is too much to ask for, just get out already, preferably with a deal, but whatever. Let's go on with this and proceed to the healing phase. For that to happen, a decision must be made. Parliament cannot provide that, busy as they are with their gerrymandering. All they offer is one deferment after another. A referendum at least would be decisive. And yes it will be a flawed one, just like the previous one was, but at the current political climate its either that or a few more years of what we've had so far, with all that this means.

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    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    The issue being that a referendum would only be decisive because sure, its currently likely to return a 'Remain' result- which is exactly what those advocating a second ref want. Which indeed would solve everything currently, article 50 would be revoked and Britain continues as is. However, that essentially merely creates an unstable but core state within the EU- as again every election all sides will be playing on this for at least the next decade, maybe over time the Brexit party if Farage fancies turning it into an actual party, might build a sustainable presence. Britain every five years (providing the fixed term act is kept, if not...at every moment ) will be an unstable mess regarding EU policy (and its own for markets).

    The same though is true if we leave, particularly on no-deal, but also even with a deal (As then both No-deal brexiteers and remainers would become electoral capital), every new election might see Britain with a different policy regarding the EU simply because no one bothered on either side to build a sustainable majority. There are those who would argue from either the remain or brexit side that the referendum result would be 'once in a lifetime' respected etc- but that is the high point of political naivety. Just look at Scotland currently, if there is political capital to be made, its going to be tapped.

    Also the same applies to if a second ref happens, and leave wins. The only way a second referendum would work is if it alone delivers a 'sustainable' majority- so that even as parties tap into the 'other side' for electoral leverage (which they will even if it was 90% Remain 10% leave or vice versa) its not enough of an advantage to destabilize politics overall. However its unlikely that either side will be able to secure this at a second referendum so it doesn't really solve anything in practice, while theoretically it should be, you're right 'decisive' in practice it will be anything but due to these political realities.

    Settling Brexit i have come to suspect is impossible for Britain in the short term now. What might settle it is if over the next 10 years, we leave, and then consistently 'leave' governments win the next few GE's to enforce that policy- then it will stick, likewise with remain if remain either win a second referendum, or win the next GE- providing they somehow stay in for the next few GE's they can make that policy stick as eventually the political capital diminishes. Essentially either side need to 'pull a Blair'...something which is again currently unlikely in the current political climate, but it is the only way to do so. The safest course for this would be to not pursue no-deal or remain, but to get an actual deal that does not have any disruptive implications attached that no-deal does (Which would damage no-deal and the Governement who did it politically and would more likely see a remain leaning Government replace them- same goes arguably for Remain in terms of not being the 'nuclear' option and sidelining a chunk of the electorate)- so leaving with a deal is the best course politically for any Government, and then they can fight and perhaps win the next few GE's on that line.

    However, this is where my point comes in about the ignored 'bigger picture' - the UK over that time, even with a deal MUST get trade deals and new relationships quickly, that are also beneficial to it compared to what we had (Which is a mountain of a task) its essentially a huge mine-field and its very unlikely any one Government might be able to win the necessary new few GE's to make their brexit idea 'stick'. However the chance is increased slightly if we get a deal- No-deal attempting this would severely undermine brexit entirely and see us rejoin the EU due to both disruption, failure of beneficial trade and a 'new Britain' beyond the 31st and of course anything that can be spun as being its fault. So that might also settle it, however probably not.

    So Brexit can only be settled over the long-term (And certainly there is now no-quick fix that would be accepted by all sides of Parliament or the electorate) if a Government has a plan that minimizes/makes sure there is no disruption, and then can pull a Blair winning multiple elections in the face of a very hostile political situation (which actually is going beyond Blair, as the opposition to Blair was essentially killed in 1997 and only regained their strength post 2008 by a politically savy campaign and them fact Gordon Brown took over). That's then only way forward i can see.
    Last edited by Dante Von Hespburg; September 11, 2019 at 07:22 AM.
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    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dante Von Hespburg View Post
    So Brexit can only be settled in the long-term if a Government has a plan that minimizes/makes sure there is no disruption, and then can pull a Blair winning multiple elections in the face of a very hostile political situation (which actually is going beyond Blair, as the opposition to Blair was essentially killed in 1997 and only regained their strength post 2008 by a politically savy campaign and them fact Gordon Brown took over). That's then only way forward i can see.
    I agree with that. I also think though that it is an extremely unlikely scenario. Which further cements my belief that Britain is screwed at this point. Nevertheless this is a long term solution, currently a short term one is urgently needed. That's the light under which I'm arguing in favour of a second referendum, not necessarily a "Leave/Remain" one, but say a "May's Deal/No Deal" one.

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    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Cannot rep you again so soon Dante but what you describe are so complex roads ahead, full of problems. Thus due to Occam´s razer the most benefits in majority of scenarios will get Scotland. UK parliament will be mired down with brexit question and unless remain path, it is very possible it will create political capital in Scotland...
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    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alastor View Post
    A response for arguments sake mostly. You would agree I assume that everyone is better informed than they used to be now, perhaps not well-informed, but certainly better informed. So why not put that claim to the test? The will of the people is not immutable, what makes a second referendum a lesser form of democratic expression than the first?
    You cannot cancel a referendum based on an assumption. Someone says that they were not well informed (a ridiculous claim to begin with), so let's cancel the referendum, perhaps the only expression of DIRECT democracy that exists, in order to repeat the voting process (in the hope of reversing the people's verdict). And why not, if the second referendum was pro-EU keep THAT one, and not have a third one, since the score is 1-1? For God's sake, this is democracy, not the Champion's League.
    And of course, even if the second referendum was to verify the result of the first (ie pro-Brexit) Bremainers could say that even now people were not well informed, so, let's have a third one, and so on. We are essentially ridiculing the will of the people and the whole concept of DIRECT democracy and its procedures.
    This is the sort of Tsipristic mentality (from Tsipras). At a convention of his party, participants were asked to vote on an issue. The result was not to Tsipras's liking, so he had them vote again (you can find the YT video on that, but I believe you've already seen it).
    What the MPs must now do, is stop the current coup and go ahead with the Brexit.

    Edit: Btw I see reason in a referendum that would pose a May's Deal/No deal question. But not one that would repeat the Brexit/Bremain question, as this has already been answered.
    Last edited by ioannis76; September 11, 2019 at 07:59 AM.

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    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    At least British citizens can shop beer, spirits, wine and tobacco duty-free in Europe in the future...

    https://twitter.com/hmtreasury/statu...54868277489664

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    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alastor View Post
    I agree with that. I also think though that it is an extremely unlikely scenario. Which further cements my belief that Britain is screwed at this point. Nevertheless this is a long term solution, currently a short term one is urgently needed. That's the light under which I'm arguing in favour of a second referendum, not necessarily a "Leave/Remain" one, but say a "May's Deal/No Deal" one.
    In terms of the short term, i think your idea here is indeed viable as one of the best ways forward. The issue being i can't see any party willing to essentially compromise like that (A problem that has dogged Westminster and the Government throughout). Boris won't as it would be the end of them, and those who want a second ref are all unshakable in their demand that 'remain' be on the ballot.

    A second though again unlikely short-term stop-gap solution would be Kinnocks accidentally passed amendment which brings May's deal back to Parliament in all its glory for a 4th vote. This would see us leave, with a deal (a terrible one arguably) but one that while hardcore remainers and brexiteers would despise, would also limit their electoral appeal potentially, so that a Government can come in- prop up that deal and try and stay in power for the next few elections continuously until both remain and hardcore Brexiter anger subsides. However, again who would support it now?

    Quote Originally Posted by Daruwind View Post
    Cannot rep you again so soon Dante but what you describe are so complex roads ahead, full of problems. Thus due to Occam´s razer the most benefits in majority of scenarios will get Scotland. UK parliament will be mired down with brexit question and unless remain path, it is very possible it will create political capital in Scotland...
    Appreciated mate and true, this is what a Britain, who launched into article 50 unprepared trying to do a complex process of both brexit and then reform a post-brexit British society and economy looks like- a mess. I think at this point its very likely Scotland is going to leave the Union based upon the political capital their currently reaping

    Interestingly this might also present a path forward for the rest of the UK- as when Scotland leaves, Westminster is hugely changed, it would also provide the justification for redrawing constituency boundaries as the 2018 format proposed, which while no longer giving the Conservatives a secure majority (2017 trends saw to that), it would likely lead in a party being able to get a majority, and their opposition being much lessened in number. So Scottish independence is perhaps the third 'short-term' way of solving the UK's Brexit crisis by removing a chunk of the opposition and facilitating a redrawing of the remaining English, Welish and N.Irish electoral boundaries.
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  19. #2719
    Daruwind's Avatar Citizen
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    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alastor View Post
    I agree with that. I also think though that it is an extremely unlikely scenario. Which further cements my belief that Britain is screwed at this point. Nevertheless this is a long term solution, currently a short term one is urgently needed. That's the light under which I'm arguing in favour of a second referendum, not necessarily a "Leave/Remain" one, but say a "May's Deal/No Deal" one.
    Fully agree that UK needs some short term solution as well. At least partial to get time and space or discussion to get final one. So that was reasoning of long term extension. It basically calm down the situation and allow UK to breathe again. DO stuff, prepare, have election or referendum or whatever. Solve home politics. Because between you and Dante, basically all presented scenarios are not having strong enough support. Probably even "deal" option would benefit from 1-2 years long extension. That would allow election and new goverment/PM with majority then can finally (and skillfully/hopefully) talk with EU and prepare such deal. I simply cannot envision EU openening any serious talks while current UK situation is total chaos,mess. Just imagine that while Bojo is PM, he will be gone in month probably, no party has majority so election and prospect of election is also nothing sure. So there is nobody in UK to grant any long term planning....only thing important to EU. Heck EU is probably fine with "no deal" if the date is set like 5-12 months ahead.
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    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alastor View Post
    The will of the people is not immutable, what makes a second referendum a lesser form of democratic expression than the first?
    Obviously. Dante has argued that "The issue being that a referendum would only be decisive because sure, its currently likely to return a 'Remain' result- which is exactly what those advocating a second ref want. Which indeed would solve everything currently, article 50 would be revoked and Britain continues as is.However, that essentially merely creates an unstable but core state within the EU..."
    But, so what? nothing is immutable, nothing is permanently stable, laws can be changed, even constitutions can be changed, new referendums can be made. In my opinion, the UK needs internal stability, and now faces disaggregation. So, which is worse? The Scottish Parliament has approved a new Independence Referendum, to take place between late 2018 and early 2019, "when the shape of the UK's Brexit deal will become clear".
    The New EU's chief trade negotiator is the Irish Phil Hogan. The nomination of "Big Phil" means that the EU will continue to prioritize the issue of the Irish border. It's crystal clear that the Irish border order will see checks after a non deal Brexit.
    It's also crystal clear to me that the nationalist concept of the Brexit, the nationalist concept of the proud nationalist Brexiteers (Boris,"We shall never surrender"- oh dear, but the EU is not the nazi Germany) is not a Scottish, Irish or Welsh concept. It is an English concept, a by product of English exceptionalism in British history.
    -----
    Quote Originally Posted by ioannis76 View Post
    Someone says that they were not well informed (a ridiculous claim to begin with), so let's cancel the referendum, perhaps the only expression of DIRECT democracy that exists,
    Yes, it is a "ridiculous" claim for your right wing xenophobic and racist friends in the Uk and across the world. As a side note, it's a well known fact that that populistas have a special love for direct democracy.Do populist-leaning citizens support direct democracy? : Democratic

    populist leaders and their parties often see themselves as the (only) representatives of the popular will of the people and claim to incarnate their interests and their most pressing demands. In a somewhat paradoxical way, while claiming this leadership role over a rather passive people, most populist politicians also tend to invoke the need for an unmediated relationship between them and the people as a whole. In doing so, they often emerge as champions of a direct democratic ideal that would, as they put it, give people not only a voice but a say in political affairs through, for example, frequent referendums on specific policy issues.
    Last edited by Ludicus; September 11, 2019 at 10:29 AM.
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