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Thread: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

  1. #3061

    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheLeft View Post
    Oh dear. Once again we have the embarrassingly illiterate view that just because you are a lefty, you must be a Leninist or something. Does this therefore mean that because you're a right winger, you're a Nazi? Or does that strange dichotomy only work one way?

    The reason why I'm a remainer is actually pretty simple. Brexit means being poorer (every single economic forecast predicts that) and having less rights (no longer able to work or travel freely in the EU). I'd have thought that a right winger would appreciate that view...
    We seem to have the politically illiterate view that you can be a leftist and a pro-capitalist. I wonder what the difference is between the left and the center-right, could you please enlighten this illiterate individual?

    Does this therefore mean that because you're a right winger, you're a Nazi?
    And yet another politically illiterate view. Nazi means National SOCIALIST. To refer to me as a socialist would be an insult, as last time I checked socialism was part of the LEFT political spectrum. In fact, many european leftist parties refer to themselves as socialist.
    So, what's the difference between the left you represent, and the center right? Let's keep this in financial and administrative issues. Is there one?
    You have a hard time admitting that the current "left" has basically been absorbed or rather paid off by EU salaries and very comfortable "civil servant" or NGO positions, at the same time strangulating the private sector with ridiculous taxes, some of which are very cunningly named "environmental taxes" in order to ease their leftist consciousness (if and when it wakes up from its slumber). The center-right in europe has been doing just that for decades, it seems that the left has now joined in. The path of least resistance and all that.
    Last edited by alhoon; October 23, 2019 at 05:25 PM. Reason: continuity

  2. #3062
    Muizer's Avatar member 3519
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    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by ioannis76 View Post
    Nazi means National SOCIALIST.
    Yah, which is something they called themselves, probably for propaganda reasons. As anyone with a knowledge of socialism would know 'national socialist' is a contradiction in terms.
    "Lay these words to heart, Lucilius, that you may scorn the pleasure which comes from the applause of the majority. Many men praise you; but have you any reason for being pleased with yourself, if you are a person whom the many can understand?" - Lucius Annaeus Seneca -

  3. #3063
    Alastor's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by Muizer View Post
    Yah, which is something they called themselves, probably for propaganda reasons. As anyone with a knowledge of socialism would know 'national socialist' is a contradiction in terms.
    Is it? Socialism is characterized by social ownership of the means of production. What in there conflicts with nationalism? The nazis wanted an alternative to internationalist Marxism and adopted a rhetoric that would lure workers away from communism and other such movements yes. I can't in good faith argue that Nazism was really about socialism, though they did favour some nationalizations. But that doesn't mean that national and socialist are by definition contradicting terms. This sounds more like a knee-jerk reaction, an attempt to expunge the sin of being even remotely associated with Hitler.

  4. #3064
    caratacus's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by mongrel View Post
    To be fair Leave.EU had close links with Russia..................

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...sia-connection
    Allan Banks had business interests in Russia, that doesn't prove that the Russian government had any role in political manipulation. A great many rich business folk and politicians have dealings with rich oligarchs especially in the UK, does this prove anything?
    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknew...als/ar-AAAKWdT

    This claim by the pro Remain Guardian was a cheap attempt to discredit Brexit using Russaphobia. The British people knew what they voted for, and three years later they still haven't got it! It's a common tactic of those in authoritarian governments to discredit opposition by claiming foreign influence. There is rather more evidence that any foreign influence has instead been overwhelmingly done to keep the UK in the EU.

    Remainer Speaker John Bercow holds secret meeting with EU chief about holding second referendum

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/brexit...with-eu-chief/

  5. #3065

    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    The Brit Establishment tried to bribe Nigel Farage with an offer of a Knighthood:
    Conservatives 'try to buy off Nigel Farage with a peerage' amid fears over the threat he poses in an election
    Source: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...e-peerage.html

    Such is the power of the Brexit Party, looks like my man Farage aint havin' none of that.

  6. #3066
    caratacus's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by Exarch View Post
    The Brit Establishment tried to bribe Nigel Farage with an offer of a Knighthood:
    Source: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...e-peerage.html
    Such is the power of the Brexit Party, looks like my man Farage aint havin' none of that.
    I cannot see Farage sitting amongst all the political cronies in the Lords, he would be more isolated than he is in Brussels. Truth is Brexit isn't just about leaving the EU but changing the UKs political system entirely, which is needing reform to make it fit for a modern democracy. The present situation demonstrates, it's simply not fit for purpose. However, many agree with abolition of the Lords, even Lord Adonis who sits there and is a Remainer.
    Farage: Forget Reform, It’s Time To Abolish The Lords Altogether
    https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presente...ish-the-lords/
    Some people are calling for reform of the House of Lords, but not Nigel Farage - he wants it abolished altogether.
    Last edited by caratacus; October 20, 2019 at 08:19 AM.

  7. #3067
    Daruwind's Avatar Citizen
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    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    So latest development so far. EU is taking time before responding to extension letter. Probably up to next week to see actual development in UK. This is again playing ball back to UK and keeping EU hands out of current UK internal political mess. Plus this is probably slightly strenghtening remain/anti no deal side as extension is not yet offered. Some words about 3 month extension were in the air...
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics...nsion-decision

    Labours looks like to try to add second referendum next week
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics...d-says-starmer

    And there were some talks about posible VONC from SNP as well.

    So look like we will have yet another week full of fun ahead.

  8. #3068

    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by Muizer View Post
    Fine if you have more faith in the credentials of one professional than another, but whether they're believable is still about their credentials, not about the views they expound. Forgive me, but your evaluation of journalists or politicians does not lend any credibility to their knowledge and professionalism.
    Yeah, I'm just pointing out that over the last decade or so, using phrase "conspiracy theory" unironically is a good way to throw away your own credibility. If you disagree with a narrative then engage with it.

  9. #3069
    Muizer's Avatar member 3519
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    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    Yeah, I'm just pointing out that over the last decade or so, using phrase "conspiracy theory" unironically is a good way to throw away your own credibility. If you disagree with a narrative then engage with it.
    If you're a professional on a subject, yes. Otherwise, leave it to the professionals.
    "Lay these words to heart, Lucilius, that you may scorn the pleasure which comes from the applause of the majority. Many men praise you; but have you any reason for being pleased with yourself, if you are a person whom the many can understand?" - Lucius Annaeus Seneca -

  10. #3070

    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by Muizer View Post
    If you're a professional on a subject, yes. Otherwise, leave it to the professionals.
    What do you mean by that? For example Lysenko was a professional, but I don't think he was a person to trust, even as a scientist.

  11. #3071
    Muizer's Avatar member 3519
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    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    What do you mean by that? For example Lysenko was a professional, but I don't think he was a person to trust, even as a scientist.
    Ah well it's an interesting discussion, but perhaps a bit too abstract/off topic for this thread.
    "Lay these words to heart, Lucilius, that you may scorn the pleasure which comes from the applause of the majority. Many men praise you; but have you any reason for being pleased with yourself, if you are a person whom the many can understand?" - Lucius Annaeus Seneca -

  12. #3072
    Alastor's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Anyone knows of any good ditches? It seems BoJo can't find one.

  13. #3073
    swabian's Avatar igni ferroque
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    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alastor View Post
    Anyone knows of any good ditches? It seems BoJo can't find one.
    Johnson just tries to do his best to finish this horrible, horrible job. As did the Lady before him. Europe one day will just say good bye, we don't care what your conditions and demands are. You said you'd leave us bloody continentals and it might just so happen, that the continent takes this seriously.

    There is no more room for traditional British gambling and messing around with the rest of Europe. You will have to answer and you have to answer NOW! So don't butcher your own politicians who are trying to save your faces and to get it over with quickly!

  14. #3074

    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Why can't Boris just revoke Article 50, job done?
    Absolutley Barking, Mudpit Mutt Former Patron: Garbarsardar

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    "Oh Yeah? What about a cricket bat? That's pretty straight. Just off the top of my head..." Al Murray, Pub Landlord.

  15. #3075

    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by mongrel View Post
    Why can't Boris just revoke Article 50, job done?
    Because the British people voted to leave the EU in a referendum?

  16. #3076
    Ludicus's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    Apparently, Boris lied today, "I will not negotiate a delay with the EU,
    Well, Boris keep his word, and cheated the Parliament.
    Boris Johnson's Brexit delay letters in full - BBC News

    The PM sent three letters in all - an unsigned photocopy of the request as outlined by the Benn Act; an explanatory note from the UK's ambassador to the EU; and a personal, signed, letter saying why he does not want a delay.
    -------

    Quote Originally Posted by Daruwind View Post
    Labours looks like to try to add second referendum next week
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics...d-says-starmer
    Indeed...
    PM tells Corbyn 'moment has come to approve Brexit deal' - The ...

    Issuing an "appeal" to the UK parliament to approve the Brexit agreement now negotiated, Costa then revealed that earlier, at a meeting of European Socialists that preceded the European Council in Brussels, he took the opportunity to convey his position to the British opposition leader.
    "Today, at the meeting of the S & D [socialists and Democrats], I had the opportunity to tell the Labour leader, Jeremy Corbyn, who obviously … each of us has our own internal political contingencies in each of our countries, but that there is a moment where we all have to be able to put the interest of Europe and the general interest above the partisan conveniences of each one," he said.
    Asked whether Corbyn was receptive to his arguments, Costa smiled and replied simply that he would see on Saturday, the day scheduled for the vote in the House of Commons on the deal that the government has reached with the EU.
    As we can see, Corbyn wasn't receptive at all.
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
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  17. #3077

    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by 95thrifleman View Post
    Because the British people voted to leave the EU in a referendum?
    They also voted for the Poll Tax, another undeliverable policy. It's history now.
    Absolutley Barking, Mudpit Mutt Former Patron: Garbarsardar

    "Out of the crooked tree of humanity,no straight thing can be made." Immanuel Kant
    "Oh Yeah? What about a cricket bat? That's pretty straight. Just off the top of my head..." Al Murray, Pub Landlord.

  18. #3078
    Tiro
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    Default Re: Brexit countdown to October 31st - Queen Elizabeth II wills her government to action

    Quote Originally Posted by JP226 View Post
    Weird how a queen has a final say so.
    No doubt the pressure is on. After years, and many voicing the "common sense," it's either Boris Johnson delivers the nation from the EU or he looks like the biggest loser even more so than May. Only a highly individualistic, bureaucratic nutcase could do that in the name of "appeasing both sides."

    So far, so good anyways.

    Brexit: 'I will not negotiate a delay with the EU,' Boris Johnson tells MPs after vote defeat – as it happened https://www.theguardian.com/politics...bour-live-news

    To Deal, or not Deal. Now that is the question.
    Last edited by Bob69Joe; October 20, 2019 at 07:18 PM.
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    Crow states: "If you would be a great leader, then learn the way of the Tao. Relinquish the need to control. Let go of plans and of concepts. The world will govern itself. The more restrictive you are, the less virtuous people will be. The more force you display, the less secure they will feel. The more subsidies you provide, the less self-reliant they become. Therefore the master says: Un-write the law, thus the people become honest. Dispense with economics, thus the people become prosperous. Do without religion, thus the people become serene. Let go all desire for the common good, and the good becomes as common as the grass." ~ Lao Tzu - Tao te tching
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  19. #3079

    Default Re: Brexit countdown to October 31st - Queen Elizabeth II wills her government to action

    The Queen has no actual power and is constitutionally barred from being involved in any decision making process. While the Government and the Prime Minister act in Queen's name, she isn't allowed to be involved in the day to day business of state. The State opening of Parliament, and the Queen's role in it, is purely ceremonial. The Queen wears the world's most expensive hat and then reads out a speech prepared by the Government which outlines their legislative program for the next year. While Elizabeth Windsor is a very popular monarch, she is a powerless figurehead whose sole constitutional purpose is to rubber stamp legislation.

    So she can't actually 'will' anything into action, Brexit or otherwise.
    Last edited by TheLeft; October 20, 2019 at 08:23 PM. Reason: wibble

  20. #3080

    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    no, this is like removing a parasite who is inflicting as much damage and pain on the host as possible in an attempt o make the host let it stay
    You know you've played too much Stainless Steel when in every other mod you play you think cavalry is too weak.

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