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Thread: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

  1. #3021
    Muizer's Avatar member 3519
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    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by Greyblades View Post
    Only thing confirmed I have seen save ireland is the 38 billion still being in it, which bodes poorly for the content.

    If this is chequers in all but ireland then farage and the dup are right to oppose it, this will get very nasty should such pass for the tories, hell theyre still not going to have a good time if chequers lite doesnt.
    Here's one thing that changed:

    While the references to a "level playing field" were removed from the legally binding withdrawal agreement, the revised political declaration says that the UK and the EU should "uphold the common high standards […] in the areas of state aid, competition, social and employment standards, environment, climate change, and relevant tax matters".
    Which is a step in the right direction from the Brexiteer perspective. They want to be able to gain a competitive edge by lowering those standards after all.
    Last edited by Muizer; October 17, 2019 at 12:58 PM.
    "Lay these words to heart, Lucilius, that you may scorn the pleasure which comes from the applause of the majority. Many men praise you; but have you any reason for being pleased with yourself, if you are a person whom the many can understand?" - Lucius Annaeus Seneca -

  2. #3022
    Ludicus's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    This deal isn't a true Brexit.Within a few years, there will be an united Ireland.After hearing the Vice-President of the European Parliament, just a few minutes ago, I can safely say that this deal is a band aid for Boris' ego.I may be wrong but the chances of the UK parliament passing the deal are slim.
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  3. #3023

    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by Daruwind View Post
    And probably the most important part -
    EU will not grant any further extension, says Juncker, implying MPs must choose between this deal and no deal
    Jean-Claude Juncker, the European commission president, has said the EU will grant another Brexit extension.
    This is hugely significant, because, if the rest of the EU27 agree - and it is not clear yet whether he is speaking on their behalf - it means MPs will effectively be faced with a choice between this deal and no deal

    EDIT: question is, if this is real thing in case parliament again ends in such way....Juncker is defending deal but it is not his say whether EU council (EU27) will or not grant extension..
    ...and Donald Tusk has politely slapped him down for saying it.
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  4. #3024
    caratacus's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    This deal isn't a true Brexit.Within a few years, there will be an united Ireland.After hearing the Vice-President of the European Parliament, just a few minutes ago, I can safely say that this deal is a band aid for Boris' ego.I may be wrong but the chances of the UK parliament passing the deal are slim.
    I confess to being swept up by the media spin. Does this deal actually contain regulatory alignment including taxation, open borders and shared fishing rights in British coastal waters? Is this really Brexit or just as I thought another May deal. I'll need to read more about it but given the reaction of the rebel Tories I'm sceptical. I'm not surprised the DUP are against. It seems that the UK government will losen its Union Jack braces when it comes to NI's future relationship with the EU by resting that responsibility principally to Stormont. The same assembly that is racked with sectarian division and hasn't met for years. No wonder Sinn Fein remain muted on the deal because it could be seen as a possible step towards the province getting closer to Dublin and further from London, which is their long term plan.
    Last edited by caratacus; October 17, 2019 at 07:24 PM.

  5. #3025
    Alastor's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    I'm not sure why the UK is on Johnson for this tbh. Empty rhetorics aside May's deal was still the base and with that as a starting point the EU is the one that caved big time. The backstop has to be there and with no time limit, there now is a time limit baptized event limit to save face. The withdrawal agreement won't be renegotiated, but it was. The EU needs strong customs borders, but apparently allowing the UK to collect customs for the EU or UK vets to check food headed to the EU is the way to keep them strong etc. I don't know what more the UK wants from the EU, if they want to leave with a deal, if they want to respect the GFA, if they want to maintain the open borders in Ireland. I wish the Council heeded Juncker, made this a take or leave it. It seems the longer negotiations drag the more the EU will cave.

  6. #3026
    Muizer's Avatar member 3519
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    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alastor View Post
    I'm not sure why the UK is on Johnson for this tbh. Empty rhetorics aside May's deal was still the base and with that as a starting point the EU is the one that caved big time. The backstop has to be there and with no time limit, there now is a time limit baptized event limit to save face. The withdrawal agreement won't be renegotiated, but it was. The EU needs strong customs borders, but apparently allowing the UK to collect customs for the EU or UK vets to check food headed to the EU is the way to keep them strong etc. I don't know what more the UK wants from the EU, if they want to leave with a deal, if they want to respect the GFA, if they want to maintain the open borders in Ireland. I wish the Council heeded Juncker, made this a take or leave it. It seems the longer negotiations drag the more the EU will cave.
    Simple. He has achieved something few would think possible but the thing he achivied only addresses the concerns of the ERG at the expense of magnifying those of the DUP. As for the EU, only if you believe it intended to trap the UK indefinitely by means of the backstop is this arrangement a huge concession.
    "Lay these words to heart, Lucilius, that you may scorn the pleasure which comes from the applause of the majority. Many men praise you; but have you any reason for being pleased with yourself, if you are a person whom the many can understand?" - Lucius Annaeus Seneca -

  7. #3027
    Ludicus's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by caratacus View Post
    Is this really Brexit or just as I thought another May deal.
    Another May deal. It's Brexitland: one country, two systems.Norway for Northern Ireland, nothing for the rest.
    Last edited by Ludicus; October 18, 2019 at 09:46 AM.
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  8. #3028

    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Yet another way in which Bremainers upon the will of the people:

    https://twitter.com/ByDonkeys/status...inei-580557%2F

    A whole referendum says Brexit, and yet sore losers want it cancelled, because they ploughed a field.

  9. #3029
    Alastor's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by Muizer View Post
    Simple. He has achieved something few would think possible but the thing he achivied only addresses the concerns of the ERG at the expense of magnifying those of the DUP. As for the EU, only if you believe it intended to trap the UK indefinitely by means of the backstop is this arrangement a huge concession.
    Oh yes DUP was thrown under the bus. But it's not like their position wasn't precarious already. Neither did I know that the UK must bend the knee now to Arlene and her cronies. As for me, I have much more of an issue with the customs arrangement, than the backstop. The EU is basically delegating to the UK its own checks, trusting the same UK that allowed Chinese companies to evade EU customs while in the EU, to behave in better faith towards the EU when it leaves.

  10. #3030

    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by ioannis76 View Post
    Yet another way in which Bremainers upon the will of the people:

    https://twitter.com/ByDonkeys/status...inei-580557%2F

    A whole referendum says Brexit, and yet sore losers want it cancelled, because they ploughed a field.
    *cringe*

    I think you need to stick to threads whinging about Turkey, because that post was just embarrassing

  11. #3031

    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheLeft View Post
    *cringe*

    I think you need to stick to threads whinging about Turkey, because that post was just embarrassing
    It was embarrassing to the guy who tweeted it, and to all the "sobbing" people who posted that they were "moved" by said tweet. I mean, seriously, who is moved to tears at the sight of a farming tractor ploughing?

    It impresses me, though to see that you (obviously) support the Left, and are a Bremainer. Isn't the EU supposed to be the pinnacle of capitalism or something like that?

  12. #3032
    Ludicus's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    As expected,
    Brexit Deal Sparks $1 Billion of Gains for UK Billionaire Trio - Bloomberg

    Britain’s richest trio have plenty to celebrate from the latest Brexit agreement.
    Jim Ratcliffe, James Dyson and Hugh Grosvenor saw their fortunes rise by a combined $1.1 billion Thursday morning after news that U.K. negotiators and the European Union agreed on a new deal for Brexit caused stocks and the pound to rally.
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
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    Socialism is the epithet they have hurled at every advance the people have made in the last 20 years.
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  13. #3033
    Muizer's Avatar member 3519
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    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    It impresses me, though to see that you (obviously) support the Left, and are a Bremainer. Isn't the EU supposed to be the pinnacle of capitalism or something like that?
    Nothing special about that. Between leave and remain, leave is the choice for hard capitalism. It is underpinned by the belief that the EU is over-regulated and that de-regulating will help gain the UK a competitive advantage over the EU. That's why the Brexit party are furious there's still a commitment (though less) to maintaining a 'level playing field' in Boris' deal. They were looking forward to benefiting from a domestic race to the bottom in terms of wages, worker's rights, health and safety and environmental standards. Any informed voter who is wary of laissez faire capitalism should have voted to remain. Personally I'm really glad I'm not a Briton in post Brexit Britain. I don't want to live in a country where the capitalist elite aim to restore some victorian era distopia (because that's what it was). There's enough to complain about the EU, but compared to that it's positively egalitarian.
    Last edited by Muizer; October 18, 2019 at 01:43 PM.
    "Lay these words to heart, Lucilius, that you may scorn the pleasure which comes from the applause of the majority. Many men praise you; but have you any reason for being pleased with yourself, if you are a person whom the many can understand?" - Lucius Annaeus Seneca -

  14. #3034

    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by Muizer View Post
    Nothing special about that. Between leave and remain, leave is the choice for hard capitalism. It is underpinned by the belief that the EU is over-regulated and that de-regulating will help gain the UK a competitive advantage over the EU.
    So, would you agree that there is some truth in the "EUSSR" accusations? If supporters of views that in decades past were in favour of the ways of the USSR have found their way into pro-EU groups, there must be some truth to this seemingly preposterous claim.

  15. #3035
    Ludicus's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Tomorrow-key points, Brexit 'super Saturday': your guide to the big day | Politics | The Guardian

    So will it pass – and if so, is it all over?

    On the first point – no one knows. The final tally could come within a couple of votes. It is worth remembering that Theresa May’s defeats on her Brexit deal ended up being heavier than expected. However, some momentum seem to be with Johnson. As to the second question: no, not at all. Even if the deal is passed, this is but the first step in a long parliamentary process, which would in turn shape an evolving and still very controversial departure process over many years. Prepare for much, much more of this.
    Merkel keeps option open | Politics

    Despite the comments, which echoed those of the European commission president, Jean-Claude Juncker, on Thursday, the privately stated position of Angela Merkel is seen in Brussels as closer to the reality of the leaders’ thinking.
    During a discussion on Thursday, the German chancellor told EU leaders that a Brexit extension would be unavoidable if British MPs vote down the new deal.
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
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    Socialism is the epithet they have hurled at every advance the people have made in the last 20 years.
    Harry Truman Oct. 10th, 1952

  16. #3036
    Muizer's Avatar member 3519
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    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by ioannis76 View Post
    So, would you agree that there is some truth in the "EUSSR" accusations? If supporters of views that in decades past were in favour of the ways of the USSR have found their way into pro-EU groups, there must be some truth to this seemingly preposterous claim.
    Terms like EUSSR and allusions to a 4th Reich are not applicable to the current situation. There are two ways in which that threat could appear real to someone. Firstly a very strong belief in a 'slippery slope', such that even the tiniest step towards federalisation is a harbinger of tyranny and secondly a belief in conspiracy theories.
    "Lay these words to heart, Lucilius, that you may scorn the pleasure which comes from the applause of the majority. Many men praise you; but have you any reason for being pleased with yourself, if you are a person whom the many can understand?" - Lucius Annaeus Seneca -

  17. #3037

    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by ioannis76 View Post
    So, would you agree that there is some truth in the "EUSSR" accusations? If supporters of views that in decades past were in favour of the ways of the USSR have found their way into pro-EU groups, there must be some truth to this seemingly preposterous claim.
    This ain't Twitter, if you followed this thread,you would see that both sides have something to say about the Brexit process, and by and large we respect eachothers viewpoints, even if we don't agree with the outcome. Would it not hurt if you posted stuff in plain english instead of using the tired old stereotypes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Muizer View Post
    Nothing special about that. Between leave and remain, leave is the choice for hard capitalism. It is underpinned by the belief that the EU is over-regulated and that de-regulating will help gain the UK a competitive advantage over the EU. That's why the Brexit party are furious there's still a commitment (though less) to maintaining a 'level playing field' in Boris' deal. They were looking forward to benefiting from a domestic race to the bottom in terms of wages, worker's rights, health and safety and environmental standards. Any informed voter who is wary of laissez faire capitalism should have voted to remain. Personally I'm really glad I'm not a Briton in post Brexit Britain. I don't want to live in a country where the capitalist elite aim to restore some victorian era distopia (because that's what it was). There's enough to complain about the EU, but compared to that it's positively egalitarian.
    I can always apply for an Irish passport (smug grin).
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  18. #3038

    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by Muizer View Post
    Terms like EUSSR and allusions to a 4th Reich are not applicable to the current situation. There are two ways in which that threat could appear real to someone. Firstly a very strong belief in a 'slippery slope', such that even the tiniest step towards federalisation is a harbinger of tyranny and secondly a belief in conspiracy theories.
    Be that as it may (or as it may seem to each person), the EU IS a heavily centralised political entity. Furthermore, it's an entity that does not look to favorably upon referenda. These are undeniable facts. Once we agree upon them, we can discuss further whether said term is a gross exaggeration or not. I would say that it is somewhat of an exaggeration, since we don't have concentration camps and such (yet), or that we make whole countries into concentration camps here in Europe, (ie Greece and Italy, regarding "asylum seekers"), yet nothing like the gulags.

    It is only natural to be skeptical when it comes to joining or remaining in such entities where the will of the people doesn't matter much, and key decisions are taken by bureaucrats who are not accountable to voters. (hence the Brexit decision).

    The Bremainer group seems to me to consist largely of people who are not much interested in actually having a say in state decisions.
    I'd say that they mostly won't even be bothered to vote in state elections.

    I can always apply for an Irish passport (smug grin).
    Well, it seems that even the threat of a Brexit is already reaping some benefits for the UK... .

  19. #3039

    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    Quote Originally Posted by Muizer View Post
    Terms like EUSSR and allusions to a 4th Reich are not applicable to the current situation. There are two ways in which that threat could appear real to someone. Firstly a very strong belief in a 'slippery slope', such that even the tiniest step towards federalisation is a harbinger of tyranny and secondly a belief in conspiracy theories.
    Anything that challenges the General Party Line is a "conspiracy theory" these days. At least according to mainstream journos and corrupt pro-EU politicians. Having said that, terms like EUSSR are oddly accurate in regards to depicting ongoing tendencies and explain why leaving EU, as well as its eventual dissolution, is not going to be a bad thing.

  20. #3040

    Default Re: Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

    LOL 'One Country, Two Systems' for Northern Ireland.

    Say what you want about Boris, the man knows how to make a play for the win.

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