Brexit - Time to scrap it and start again?

[95thrifleman]

So Boris 'the compulsive liar' Johnson, deliberately misleads Parliament, his cabinet and the Queen and your reaction is to rage at Corbyn? Ummm.. OK? You really are easily led...

He'll delay an election until after Oct 19th in order to prevent a no deal. Boris will then be forced by law to either seek an extension from the EU or resign. The Leave vote will then be split between the Brexit Party and the Tories. To be honest, I think Labour has a pretty sensible position. Renegotiate the Withdrawal Agreement then impartially put that deal to the public.

But yeah... everything is Corbyn's fault or something...

The difference between you and me is that I'm not partisan or looking at this through the prism of political affiliation. For starters I've not blamed anything on Corbyn, I pointed out that all these events solidify Boris' support within the leave camp while Corbyn has been outflanked by the Lib Dems an is stuck on his fence.

Brexit party will yield to Boris and if you think labour can renegotiate you are clearly ignoring what the EU have said. They gave us a deal, take it or leave it and with the anti-EU factions in Europe milking this for all it's worth I'm not entirely sure an extension is on the cards.

Labour blew it's chance to make a clear brexit position and present it to the people and they will pay for that.

[TheLeft]

The difference between you and me is that I'm not partisan or looking at this through the prism of political affiliation. For starters I've not blamed anything on Corbyn, I pointed out that all these events solidify Boris' support within the leave camp while Corbyn has been outflanked by the Lib Dems an is stuck on his fence.

Brexit party will yield to Boris and if you think labour can renegotiate you are clearly ignoring what the EU have said. They gave us a deal, take it or leave it and with the anti-EU factions in Europe milking this for all it's worth I'm not entirely sure an extension is on the cards.

Labour blew it's chance to make a clear brexit position and present it to the people and they will pay for that.

Yeah sure... everyone else is biased apart from you... Obviously.

If the UK is still in the EU on Nov 1st, expect the Brexiteer/Gammon rage to boil over and consume Boris. Farage will mobilise his troops and split the Tory vote in the GE.

The Lib-Dem position is clear, but it only serves to further divide and polarise the country further along Brexiteer/Remainer lines. You are correct in saying that the EU may decide to wash its hands of the UK and not negotiate with Corbyn. But they won't be dealing with Brexit headbangers using wartime language like surrender, collaborators, or treason. He'll adopt a warmer, conciliatory tone and try to reach a softer Brexit deal. Corbyns' position is by far the most democratic. Renegotiate then impartially get the people to decide. What's so bad about that? We may even get to put the whole sorry Brexit mess behind us and move on...

Wait... I know... democracy was 'won' forever by the Leave Vote back in 2016 and any subsequent decisions are null and void because something, something will of the people...

[caratacus]

I think Labour has a pretty sensible position. Renegotiate the Withdrawal Agreement then impartially put that deal to the public.

But yeah... everything is Corbyn's fault or something...

Pretending to negotiate a deal, without having intention of leaving the EU without. And not revealing the Party's position, becuase you think it will scare away Brexit Labour voters, is essentialy a policy of deceit.

[Cope]

Pretending to negotiate a deal, without having intention of leaving the EU without. And not revealing the Party's position, becuase you think it will scare away Brexit Labour voters, is essentialy a policy of deceit.

While at the same time secretly actually wanting to leave

[Greyblades]

Its a pity, I was enjoying the absense of parliamentary drama in the headlines.

I suppose I cannot fault the supreme court too much on the decision, the USA's one has hard enough time interpreting a constitution that is an actual written document, trying to judge something so divisive based on what, some sort of overarching theme in precident. without it going to hell was frankly unreasonable.

[95thrifleman]

Its a pity, I was enjoying the absense of parliamentary drama in the headlines.

I suppose I cannot fault the supreme court too much on the decision, the USA's one has hard enough time interpreting a constitution that is an actual written document, trying to judge something so divisive based on what, some sort of overarching theme in precident. without it going to hell was frankly unreasonable.

The proroguing was just electioneering on Bojo's part, he knew it wouldn't hold.

Everything now is electioneering till Corbyn runs out of excuses to delay an election. The longer Corbyn can be painted as delaying the election the worse it'll go for him to be honest.

[Cope]

The proroguing was just electioneering on Bojo's part, he knew it wouldn't hold.

Everything now is electioneering till Corbyn runs out of excuses to delay an election. The longer Corbyn can be painted as delaying the election the worse it'll go for him to be honest.

The 4D chess excuse - also known as wishful thinking.

[Greyblades]

Bad for corbyn and the remainers in general I think, if the previous two months are anything to go by the less time grandstanding in the house the better for them.

[Cope]

Bad for corbyn and the remainers in general I think, if the previous two months are anything to go by the less time grandstanding in the house the better for them.

This also is wishful thinking.

[Ludicus]

A second referendum is looking increasingly likely...and stay neutral while negotiating a new deal.Well...

[TheLeft]

Pretending to negotiate a deal, without having intention of leaving the EU without. And not revealing the Party's position, becuase you think it will scare away Brexit Labour voters, is essentialy a policy of deceit.

Even if it was, which it isn't, surely that would be fine with Brexiteers. After all, they are happy to be lied to constantly as today's court ruling shows. Boris's big mistake was not posting his reasons for proroguing Parliament on the side of a bus... As the referendum shows, 52% of people believe any old crap so long as it's written on the side of a double decker.

But it's hilarious really. Boris lies to Parliament and the Queen, and the reaction here is... but... but... Jeremy Corbyn!!!

[Greyblades]

This also is wishful thinking.

Perhaps but I dont think its going to be wrong, their posturing have been great boons for the brexit side in the past.

[Cope]

Don't count on it; the whole self-determination and patriotism thing is so 1940's.

[Muizer]

I've found, over the years, people only talk about parlimentary sovereignty when the the party they like is not in power.

You may be right, but I would hope not. Looks like Britain is sliding in the direction of the US where various sides are seeking the limits of what's permissable in pursuit of their aims even if it erodes the basis of their legitimacy.

Anyway, I think the shock about parliament taking control, and the SC confirming it is kind of funny. The Netherlands have a constitutional monarchy too, but we've had our version of this crisis 150 years ago in the aftermath of the Luxembourg crisis. Nowadays, if someone were to say something like 'parliament is undermining the governments ability to rule' people simply wouldn't understand what the hell you're on about.

[95thrifleman]

You may be right, but I would hope not. Looks like Britain is sliding in the direction of the US where various sides are seeking the limits of what's permissable in pursuit of their aims even if it erodes the basis of their legitimacy.

Anyway, I think the shock about parliament taking control, and the SC confirming it is kind of funny. The Netherlands have a constitutional monarchy too, but we've had our version of this crisis 150 years ago in the aftermath of the Luxembourg crisis. Nowadays, if someone were to say something like 'parliament is undermining the governments ability to rule' people simply wouldn't understand what the hell you're on about.

Before the fixed term parliment act the Queen could of ended this mess by simply dissolving parliment and forcing an election. Now we are stuck in this mess where nobody can get any real movement.

Parliment turned down the EU deal and have tried to stop no deal so we are stuck in this limbo with the various parties electioneering and trying to get the best time for an election on thier terms.

I wouldn't be surprised if, come 31st october, the EU says this mess, get out of the EU an deal with the fallout.

[Ludicus]

Don't count on it; the whole self-determination and patriotism thing is so 1940's.

Not necessarily.I'm a patriot, I love my country, our history, and our traditions: btw, guess which the oldest diplomatic agreement in the world that is currently active? Philippa of Lancaster produce four children who became known as the "Illustrious Generation" in Portugal.As Camões put it: "Illustrious generation, high Royal Princes".Fernando Pessoa, one of the greatest Portuguese poets, wrote this poem,

Philippa of Lancaster

What enigma held your bosom
That geniuses alone did conceive?
What archangel came to watch
Over your maternal dreams, one day?

Turn to us your austere face,
Princess of the Holy Grail,
Human womb of the Empire,
Godmother of Portugal!"
---
You see, you can be both patriot and European: Being pro-European is an expression of patriotism

...we would never argue against Europeans’ national identities, but instead, want to complement these identities with a macro-national, civilizational layer. We are fiercely pro-EU, not because the EU is perfect, but because it is the largest, most peaceful, political embodiment of our civilization in history.

[Copperknickers II]

Before the fixed term parliment act the Queen could of ended this mess by simply dissolving parliment and forcing an election. Now we are stuck in this mess where nobody can get any real movement.

We aren't stuck with it, because it's a fleetingly temporary situation. Boris has one month to either get a deal (not likely), or decide to A - ask for an extension and sign his career's death warrant or B - go for No Deal, and then try to fight off all the legal and political backlash that would cause. One of those three things will happen within the next month. After that an election is inevitable. There's literally zero chance we won't end up with an election in November.

[Exarch]

goddamn, it Britain; make up your mind.

[95thrifleman]

goddamn, it Britain; make up your mind.

Britain DID make up it's mind. The losers of the referendum decided democracy only applies when they win.....

[Cope]

At least the man still has a sense of humour: