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Thread: Catalonia Revisited

  1. #1
    Ludicus's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Catalonia Revisited

    Catalan separatist leaders given 9 to 13 years in prison
    Barcelona airport riots leave at least 53 injured and more than 100



    Dozens of flights cancelled. But two nights of violent clashes between police and protesters have injured more than 200 people. A protester loses an eye to rubber bullet, and another lost a testicle, crushed during arrests. 54 members of Catalonia’s regional police force and 18 National Police officers were hurt when they engaged with protesters . Protesters set light to over 150 barricades they erected in the streets.Pro-independence supporters start marches across the country, blocking roads, after night of turmoil.

    What is What is Tsunami Democràtic?



    On Monday, Barça released a statement titled “Prison is not the solution”, Prison is not the solution - FC Barcelona

    FC Barcelona, as one of the leading entities in Catalonia, and in accordance with its historical record, for the defence of freedom of expression and the right to decide, today, after the condemnatory ruling issued by the Supreme Court in relation to the open process against the Catalan civic and political leaders, states that:
    In the same way that the preventive prison sentence didn't help to resolve the conflict, neither will the prison sentence given today, because prison is not the solution.
    The resolution of the conflict in Catalonia must come exclusively from political dialogue.
    Therefore, now more than ever, the club asks all political leaders to lead a process of dialogue and negotiation to resolve this conflict, which should also allow for the release of convicted civic and political leaders.
    FC Barcelona also expresses all its support and solidarity to the families of those who are deprived of their freedom.
    Barcelona, 14 October 2019
    ... and La Liga has requested this month's Clásico between Barcelona and Real Madrid be moved from the Camp Nou to Madrid's Bernabéu stadium.

    Jailed Catalan leaders call for end to violent protests
    The nine Catalan leaders jailed this week over their roles in the failed push for regional independence two years ago have appealed for peaceful protests following two consecutive nights of violent unrest. “All support to mobilisations and massive and peaceful marches,” wrote the nine, who include the former regional vice-president Oriol Junqueras and two influential grassroots leaders, Jordi Sànchez and Jordi Cuixart. “No violence represents us.”
    To conclude. Spain needs to reinvent itself. The Judicialization of politics isn't the solution. Or is it?
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
    Charles Péguy

  2. #2

    Default Re: Catalonia Revisited

    It's all fun and games until somebody loses an eye.
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


  3. #3
    Ludicus's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Catalonia Revisited

    Quote Originally Posted by sumskilz View Post
    It's all fun and games until somebody loses an eye.
    Christopher Brookmyre. Well, I was hoping for a serious debate...
    ---
    But I know what you mean. Gotcha.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 




    I know this is unfair, but I couldn't resist.
    Last edited by Ludicus; October 16, 2019 at 12:34 PM.
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    Default Re: Catalonia Revisited

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    ... and La Liga has requested this month's Clásico between Barcelona and Real Madrid be moved from the Camp Nou to Madrid's Bernabéu stadium.
    Seriously Real Madrid can go to hell. First Di Stefano, now this, the Falangist scum in the capital need to be expelled from world football.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    ...

    To conclude. Spain needs to reinvent itself. The Judicialization of politics isn't the solution. Or is it?
    When do you need to break a country to save it?

    My own feeling is in favour of "nations finding their own path" but that is just sentiment, and as often as not leads to disaster. Currently Kurdish aspirations are part of the bloody strife in Syria: thats a place where individual "nations" cannot be given autonomy without mass murder.

    I think Spain is civilised enough to self destruct gently. Catalan independence would surely encourage more regions (especially the Basques) to seek more autonomy too, but within the EU framework this sort of dissolution would not be outright Balkanisation. Scotland is very likely to leave Great Britain and the EU will make that much easier.

    I think the matter lies in Madrid. The national leadership and institutions have the power to exert bloody force here. Deft handling can lead to centuries of loyalty, whereas to much (or too little) force can speed an exit.

    The comparison of Scottish and Irish Unions with the UK is apposite I think. Scotland was attached to England by a personal Union in the person of James I. The kingdoms functioned mostly autonomously and made deals through a variety of regime changes but in the colossal wars with Louis XIV's mighty regime the respective elites sought to guarantee their positions through Union. Despite strong religious differences between Episcopal and Presbyterian systems the Union took place and Scots elites enjoyed the benefits of the English honours system and some protection of their own religion laws and titles.

    The Irish Union was similar, occurring during the Revolutionary wars. The principle difference was a failure to deliver Catholic emancipation. By stiffly clinging to a particular point the English regime lost much goodwill and ultimately an Irish Catholic leader (Dan O'Connell) forced emancipation through non violent demonstration: this really started the ball rolling in the long process of Irish independence as traditional leaders were sidelined in favour of Republicans.

    Madrid certainly seems to be standing on its honour here and conceding nothing. They run the risk of creating martyrs (political or real) for a new uprising.

    Quote Originally Posted by sumskilz View Post
    It's all fun and games until somebody loses an eye.
    uhh...trigger warning, thanks...
    Jatte lambastes Calico Rat

  5. #5

    Default Re: Catalonia Revisited

    This could be good for Boris Johnson. He could threaten to support Catalan unless Spain vetoes an extension.....

  6. #6
    Abdülmecid I's Avatar ¡Ay Carmela!
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    Default Re: Catalonia Revisited

    I doubt Madrid cares at the slightest about British intervention or that Boris would be willing to create yet even more troubles for his disintegrating administration. As for Barcelona's sentimental statement, I think that the football club completely misunderstood the reasoning behind the Supreme Court's decision. Its aim was not to solve the issue of Catalan separatism, but to punish certain politicians, who recklessssly abused the powers of their office, by violating state laws and by infringing upon the rights of their electorate. In my opinion, this behaviour should be unanimously condemned, regardless of someone's stance towards the merits or faults of Catalan nationalism.

    There has lately been a growing tendency of populist leaders, from the right to the center-left of the political spectrum, exploiting tribalism and nationalism for purely selfish purposes, with the goal of advancing their careers, and at the expense of the society's interests, they are supposed to represent. In fact, Puigdemont was not the only President to exploit a popular referendum for dubious purposes in 2017 and, although the second was a typical case of a Middle-Eastern despot, his case reveals that even Europe is not invulnerable to such undemocratic tactics. This is why I hope that the verdict of the judges, harsh or lenient, will give a sufficiently strong impression that such blatantly illegal actions should and will not be tolerated, at least in what concerns the Kingdom of Spain.

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    swabian's Avatar igni ferroque
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    Default Re: Catalonia Revisited

    Quote Originally Posted by Abdülmecid I View Post
    I doubt Madrid cares at the slightest about British intervention or that Boris would be willing to create yet even more troubles for his disintegrating administration. As for Barcelona's sentimental statement, I think that the football club completely misunderstood the reasoning behind the Supreme Court's decision. Its aim was not to solve the issue of Catalan separatism, but to punish certain politicians, who recklessssly abused the powers of their office, by violating state laws and by infringing upon the rights of their electorate. In my opinion, this behaviour should be unanimously condemned, regardless of someone's stance towards the merits or faults of Catalan nationalism.

    There has lately been a growing tendency of populist leaders, from the right to the center-left of the political spectrum, exploiting tribalism and nationalism for purely selfish purposes, with the goal of advancing their careers, and at the expense of the society's interests, they are supposed to represent. In fact, Puigdemont was not the only President to exploit a popular referendum for dubious purposes in 2017 and, although the second was a typical case of a Middle-Eastern despot, his case reveals that even Europe is not invulnerable to such undemocratic tactics. This is why I hope that the verdict of the judges, harsh or lenient, will give a sufficiently strong impression that such blatantly illegal actions should and will not be tolerated, at least in what concerns the Kingdom of Spain.
    Oh my, it's so very easy these days to badmouth independence movements as oh so primitive tribalism and nationalism. How would Puigdemont profit selfishly by risking his career and freedom for regional independence? Where exactly do you smell corruption?

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    Abdülmecid I's Avatar ¡Ay Carmela!
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    Default Re: Catalonia Revisited

    It's a bit difficult for me to sympathise with obsession over imaginary concepts. But again, this has nothing to do with someone's view about Catalan nationalism. Several officials of the Catalan government and the police openly violated the law and were appropriately accused of sedition and misuse of public funds. Your taxpayers don't trust their elected representatives with their money, in order for their latter to waste it into spectacular brawls by the government, broadcasted live by the television. Populist appeals at tribalism have a long history of manipulation and fraud, as nationalist leaders are usually more preoccupied with their wallet and ambitions than their compatriots right of self-determination. Catalan nationalism itself has a long history of embezzlement and corruption, which has tainted the reputation of Puigdemont's most illustrious predecessors.

    As for the motives of Puigdemont, we can't know them with absolute certainty, but facts put his sincerity in doubt. The independence referendum was proclaimed contrary to the Spanish legislation, in a parliamentary session boycotted by the opposition. Considering that only a small minority actually bothered to participate, the result completely lacked any sense of moral legitimacy, which meant that there was zero chance of it being recognized domestically and internationally. Therefore, it's reasonable to assume that Puigdemont intended to use this charade, in order to present himself as the hero of Catalan separatism and to boost his and his party's popularity, which had really suffered from the corruption scandals previously mentioned. After all, it's worth to be mentioned that the next elections were won by the Citizens, a right-wing movement, whose hostility to Catalan nationalism is rather extreme. Meanwhile, Puigdemont comfortably enjoying his self-imposed exile in Belgium, while his former colleagues are imprisoned, doesn't exactly contribute to the image of selfless martyr.

    I don't particularly care about populist charlatans taking advantage of the nationalists' naivety, but, when the repercussions of their schemes negatively affect the rest of the community, then the issue needs to be handled as decisively as possible.

  9. #9
    swabian's Avatar igni ferroque
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    Quote Originally Posted by Abdülmecid I View Post
    It's a bit difficult for me to sympathise with obsession over imaginary concepts.
    Catalonia is fairly existent as a culturally and lingually distinct region of Spain. It's not a mere product of fantasy. The movement is by no means pure irrationalism. Maybe you're projecting the Turkish perspective on European democracies a little too much. It's not our habit here to declare culturally distinct minorities, like Kurds in Turkey, as mere products of fantasy and to spit on their feelings.

    But again, this has nothing to do with someone's view about Catalan nationalism. Several officials of the Catalan government and the police openly violated the law and were appropriately accused of sedition and misuse of public funds. Your taxpayers don't trust their elected representatives with their money, in order for their latter to waste it into spectacular brawls by the government, broadcasted live by the television.
    It's the reason of the prevailing Spanish state being executed here. I don't understand why you're displaying such a gleefully fomenting style. The "crime" was an illegal referendum, it's not like it's indisputable that the sentences are appropriate. At the very least, it's a draconic handling of the aftermath of the independence movement that is bordering to utter incompetence, given how it will undoubtedly further divide the country.

    Populist appeals at tribalism have a long history of manipulation and fraud, as nationalist leaders are usually more preoccupied with their wallet and ambitions than their compatriots right of self-determination.
    "Populist appeals", "tribalism", "nationalism". You're talking like it was about taming a bunch of cudgel swinging cavemen. It's an independence movement - not "nationalism" or "tribalism" - that is far too rational and reasoned out to be deserving of a contempt that is reminiscent of how Kurds are being treated in Turkey.


    Catalan nationalism itself has a long history of embezzlement and corruption, which has tainted the reputation of Puigdemont's most illustrious predecessors.
    Completely irrelevant pseudo-examples. That just basically says that there is corruption in Catalonia as well and nothing about a correlation to Catalan independence in an of itself.


    As for the motives of Puigdemont, we can't know them with absolute certainty, but facts put his sincerity in doubt. The independence referendum was proclaimed contrary to the Spanish legislation, in a parliamentary session boycotted by the opposition. Considering that only a small minority actually bothered to participate, the result completely lacked any sense of moral legitimacy, which meant that there was zero chance of it being recognized domestically and internationally. Therefore, it's reasonable to assume that Puigdemont intended to use this charade, in order to present himself as the hero of Catalan separatism and to boost his and his party's popularity, which had
    No, of course not. Puigdemont simply tried and failed. Of course it was necessary to mobilize enough sentiment and attention for the movement and it's really just cheap and shallow to go and assume it's just image cultivation. It also wasn't a "small minority" it was 90% at a participation of 43%.

    really suffered from the corruption scandals previously mentioned. After all, it's worth to be mentioned that the next elections were won by the Citizens, a right-wing movement, whose hostility to Catalan nationalism is rather extreme. Meanwhile, Puigdemont comfortably enjoying his self-imposed exile in Belgium, while his former colleagues are imprisoned, doesn't exactly contribute to the image of selfless martyr.
    He may have turned out to be a coward, but it's quite obvious that he wasn't gonna benefit from this undertaking in any way in case the referendum fails, contrary to your wild claim he could have somehow exploited the movement for personal gain which you further unsubstantiated with some vague handwaving in the general direction of nationalism and tribalism. Because there's no cheaper way to evade and deflect

    I don't particularly care about populist charlatans taking advantage of the nationalists' naivety, but, when the repercussions of their schemes negatively affect the rest of the community, then the issue needs to be handled as decisively as possible.
    Pff. You call that botch-up "decisive" I'd rather call it "neo-Ottoman".

    So, to sum it up: you don't have a clue and don't care much anyway. Well, i knew that, i just wanted to make sure.
    Last edited by swabian; October 17, 2019 at 02:25 PM.

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    Aexodus's Avatar Persuasion>Coercion
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    Default Re: Catalonia Revisited

    Considering that only a small minority actually bothered to participate
    Not to entirely disagree with your overall drift, but I think 43% turnout while not large isn't really a small minority.

    Generally I very much feel this is heavy handed stuff from Madrid. If Nicola Sturgeon held an illegal Scottish referendum we shouldn't arrest her.
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    Default Re: Catalonia Revisited

    Quote Originally Posted by Aexodus View Post
    Not to entirely disagree with your overall drift, but I think 43% turnout while not large isn't really a small minority.
    Surely the bar for unilateral secession should be pretty high. Like, the Baltic moves to independence in 89-90 were pretty convincing.
    They give birth astride of a grave, the light gleams an instant, then it's night once more.

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    Abdülmecid I's Avatar ¡Ay Carmela!
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    Quote Originally Posted by swabian View Post
    ...
    Jabs at an otherwise irrelevant state have a serious deflecting value, only when the nationality of your interlocutor is correctly guessed. Just in case you really believe that my perception over the issue of Catalan separatism is derived from my supposed ethnicity, I must admit that I'm not Turkish and that I live not in a dark corner of Anatolia, but in the civilised left bank of the river Rhine. By the way, regarding the Catalan identity, its past is actually quite recent and has emerged only since the middle 19th century, in a typical example of romantic revivalism. It was limited in a fairly limited group of wealthy bourgeois (in fact, the Catalan left during the civil war openly opposed the reactionary message of Catalan nationalism and used exclusively the Spanish language to communicate), until the collapse of Franco's dictatorship, when liberal politicians endorsed its cause, because of how severely assimilation was imposed by the military dictatorship. Of course, longer historical traditions do not add legitimacy or credibility to nationalism, anyway.

    Concerning the rest, you have neither addressed any of my points nor have you explained why you so adamantly believe in Puigdemont's sincerity. The numerous corruption scandals I mentioned are directly linked with nationalist politicians and reveal the close ties of the superficially altruistic tribalist populism with the more selfish tendency of abusing political power and embezzling public funds. Perhaps, I'm wrong and Puigdemont and his collaborators are self-sacrificing champions of independence, but so far little has been presented to support such a positive interpretation of his irresponsible actions.
    Last edited by Abdülmecid I; October 17, 2019 at 04:17 PM.

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    swabian's Avatar igni ferroque
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    Default Re: Catalonia Revisited

    Quote Originally Posted by Abdülmecid I View Post
    Jabs at an otherwise irrelevant state have a serious deflecting value, only when the nationality of your interlocutor is correctly guessed. Just in case you really believe that my perception over the issue of Catalan separatism is derived from my supposed ethnicity, I must admit that I'm not Turkish and that I live not in a dark corner of Anatolia, but in the civilised left bank of the river Rhine. By the way, regarding the Catalan identity, its past is actually quite recent and has emerged only since the middle 19th century, in a typical example of romantic revivalism. It was limited in a fairly limited group of wealthy bourgeois (in fact, the Catalan left during the civil war openly opposed the reactionary message of Catalan nationalism and used exclusively the Spanish language to communicate), until the collapse of Franco's dictatorship, when liberal politicians endorsed its cause, because of how severely assimilation was imposed by the military dictatorship. Of course, longer historical traditions do not add legitimacy or credibility to nationalism, anyway.
    I can joyously flip that attempt at displaying historical knowledge off by hinting to the large and richly adorned Wiki article about Catalonia and its own distinct language (!) and history. Like it suddenly popped up in the 19th century, what is this absurd claim supposed to accomplish?
    And then of course the local pride was fueled by Franco's policy of forced assimilation. Yeah, i know that story. That's still not nearly all.

    Concerning the rest, you have neither addressed any of my points nor have you explained why you so adamantly believe in Puigdemont's sincerity. The numerous corruption scandals I mentioned are directly linked with nationalist politicians and reveal the close ties of the superficially altruistic tribalist populism with the more selfish tendency of abusing political power and embezzling public funds. Perhaps, I'm wrong and Puigdemont and his collaborators are self-sacrificing champions of independence, but so far little has been presented to support such a positive interpretation of his irresponsible actions.
    I didn't claim PG was a selfless hero, i asked you what makes you believe in some sinister quest of his to become a billionaire riding sore the backs of the lowly nationalist cattle - which of course leaves you unfazed in grim determination for the greater good.
    Your answer was nothing but handwavium garnered with nonsensical examples about cases of corruption that are supposedly a product of nationalist thinking and not simply local cases of corruption. I don't see you making any point whatsoever, it's a wonder i keep harping on about this meager nonsense at all. How could PG possibly benefit from taking such a risk? Your standard-marxisms about the inevitable corruption of nationalism are not a point!

    It's also hardly a nationalist movement given the contrast: Catalans trying to become independent from Spain is not more nationalist than Spain fighting viciously for the national integrity. It's called Independence. Someone who reads this as "ooga-booga" didn't understand how and why nation states emerged in the first place.
    Last edited by swabian; October 17, 2019 at 04:56 PM.

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    Default Re: Catalonia Revisited

    Where are the frozen peaches afficionados now?
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    mishkin's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Catalonia Revisited

    Treating everything that has happened and is happening would require a lot of interest (I barely have a little) many hours of reasonable debate and skulls better endowed than mine, but I think this may seem interesting to you.

    About the ruling that generated the riots that are occurring in Catalonia (From El Salto, Google translation, I'm sorry).

    --------------------------------------------------------
    The ruling recalls that in the referendum that took place on October 1, and that according to the law it would have binding results if more than half of the valid votes were affirmative, 2,286,217 people voted from a total census of 5.5 million people. Of the votes cast, 2,044,058 voted in favor of the independence of Catalonia, "a figure that represents 37% of the electoral census and just over a quarter (27%) of the total population of Catalonia at that time," Highlight the sentence. They also represented 89.4% of the votes cast validly.

    The sentence continues explaining that the referendum was held without legal guarantees, since a “universal census” had not been established and the first people who arrived at the polling station were presidents, also due to the actions of police officers. also that three days after the referendum was held, the Central Electoral Board affirmed that “on October 1, 2017 it has not taken place in Catalonia”.

    The text of the Supreme continues the account of the events that occurred in 2017 with the appearance of October 10 of the then president of the Generalitat, Carles Puigdemont, in which he affirmed to abide by the result of the vote and convert Catalonia into an independent State in form of the Republic to, immediately afterwards, affirm that “with the same solemnity, the Government and I propose that the Parliament suspend the effects of the declaration of independence so that in the next weeks we will initiate a dialogue, without which it is not possible to arrive to a solution We firmly believe that the moment requires, not only the de-escalation of tensions but, above all, the clear will to move forward in the requests and the mandate of the people of Catalonia (...) in the stage of dialogue that we are willing to open ”.

    Then he goes to October 27, when "four parliamentarians who are not now subject to trial, belonging to the Junts pel Si groups and the CUP, presented two proposals for resolution for voting to the Plenary." One of the resolutions proposed independence and the second, the beginning of a constitutional process that would be culminated in a referendum in which the text of the new Constitution of Catalonia would be voted. The independence resolution was passed with 70 votes in favor, 10 against and two abstentions, but, according to the ruling, "it did not have any practical practicality," when article 155 was applied.

    "That symbolic and ineffective declaration of independence was the outcome of a process of legislative processing that was developed in open and continuous opposition to all the requirements formulated by the Constitutional Court," highlights the ruling.

    In the sentence, the alleged violence is carried out by the thousands of people who took to the streets to defend the republic has not been proven, so the magistrates have decided to dismiss the rebellion convictions requested by the Prosecutor's Office and the popular accusation. Instead, he has sentenced for sedition.

    ------------------------------------
    Last edited by mishkin; Yesterday at 08:51 AM. Reason: emo bs removed

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    Ludicus's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Catalonia Revisited

    Whatever we think, want or desire, it's quite obvious that Catalonia needs a political solution.Fire,barricades, violence,chaos.Watch.Live,



    ------
    Barcelona hit by general strike in support of jailed Catalan leaders. More than 500,000 in the streets.

    Last edited by Ludicus; Yesterday at 11:53 AM.
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    mishkin's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    Barcelona hit by general strike in support of jailed Catalan leaders. More than 500,000 in the streets.
    But you know why these people are imprisoned, right Ludicus? And you also know why other independence leaders were not even tried, right?
    Last edited by mishkin; Yesterday at 01:13 PM.

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    Ludicus's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Quote Originally Posted by mishkin View Post
    But you know why these people are imprisoned, right Ludicus?
    Right, mishkin.I know why they are imprisoned (1). Whatever you think, or I think ,or we think, it is a political problem that requires a political solution.
    ---
    (1) Edit, they were jailed for sedition- not rebellion.
    Sedition. article 544 of Spain's Criminal Code,
    Son reos de sedición los que, sin estar comprendidos en el delito de rebelión, se alcen pública y tumultuariamente para impedir, por la fuerza o fuera de las vías legales, la aplicación de las Leyes o a cualquier autoridad.
    Translating, in Spanish law, sedition requires a "public and tumultuous uprising"- against the law or the authorities.
    According to Bloomberg,.Harsh Catalan Prison Sentences Are Un-European - Bloomberg

    The prison sentences of nine to 13 years handed down by the Spanish Supreme Court to nine Catalan secessionist leaders raise the question of whether Spain has a law and order problem that should bother the European Union the way Poland’s and Hungary’s infractions do. Few other democracies would have sent people to prison for such a long time for what is essentially no more than extreme speech.
    In demanding freedom for Oriol Junqueras and his fellow former officials involved in Catalonia’s illegal secession referendum and failed independence declaration of 2017, Catalans thronging the streets of Barcelona have a more legitimate cause than in insisting on unilateral secession. The harshness of the punishment is distinctly un-European.
    Last edited by Ludicus; Yesterday at 02:27 PM.
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    caratacus's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Catalonia Revisited

    Quote Originally Posted by Aexodus View Post
    Generally I very much feel this is heavy handed stuff from Madrid. If Nicola Sturgeon held an illegal Scottish referendum we shouldn't arrest her.
    Ermm Not sure about that, She would certainly be first in line to prosecute in the Scottish court if the role was reversed, if SNP's behaviour over Brexit is anything to go by.

    Barcelona tonight looking and sounding like a war zone.

    Last edited by caratacus; Yesterday at 03:03 PM.

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    mishkin's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    Right, mishkin.I know why they are imprisoned. Whatever you think, or I think ,or we think, it is a political problem that requires a political solution.
    You are right, but I have the feeling some people forget those guys broke the law (i.e: they used public resources in a spurious way) and most independence leaders just manipulated part of the catalonian population with demagoguery (nationalist demagoguery) and what they knew where false promises. (I insist on pointing out the errors on "the Catalan side" because it seems that the errors on the part of the central government are evident).
    Last edited by mishkin; Yesterday at 02:16 PM.

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