Units stats after the patch on 30/11/2017 (Steam version)

[Dresden]

So do i understand right. There is finaly the newest version of DeI available for steam. With all the new mechanics and the stat and greek overall.

Must I renew the mods in Steam or is this automatically added.
Sorry obly played the steam Version.

Thanks for your answers.

Is the population thing also included?


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Steam is automatically updated and is currently the full mod version.

[Blothorn]

I for one am really happy with the unit stat changes--combat outcomes seem fairly natural, aside from the fact that pikemen can reform phalanx after being hit in the flank/rear, making them almost unbeatable against infantry 1:1.

To expound a bit on why you should ignore pikemen defence stats--pikemen's biggest defense is that from head-on units need to push through the pike wall to reach them. Giving pike wall an MD buff would be problematic since in R2, at least, individual models get formation benefits even if they are not themselves in formation (e.g. turned around fighting a flanking force). Thus increasing MD for pikemen in formation would primarily reduce vulnerability to flankers, which seems low enough to me to begin with.

[KAM 2150]

I actually decrease their base MD and increse their shield defence. This means that they only get bonuses from the front and get even bigger penalties from the sides. If they reform to face other unit, they just turn their back the one they faced in the first place. Also game has hardcoded AI always switching target to unit that attacked them in the back and I doubt CA will ever change that.

[argyrisgr97]

1)Why certain units have different number of men?In my humble oppinion that upsets the combact balance.I have found weaker units having managed to outstandingly handle much heavier troops.

2)It also seems to me that the there is not a clear line that separetes swordsmen from spearman in the matters of infantry vs infantry battle.They both share almost exact stats and there is not a slightest advandage for swords like it use to be . (Combine that whith (1) you can find cases when a unit of 300 levy spearmen can mow down a normal unit of 200 swordsmen that cost 300 more )

[KAM 2150]

Levy units have more man, elite and heavy unit have less man, it was always like that in this mod and many others. If you find a unit too strong or too weak, just report it. We have nearly 2000 units in the mod so it is hard to get them all right. Also levy units with more man allow for different gameplay than units with same man. Larger units allow to better encircle the enemy so that even if enemy has better quality, lighter units can still do more due to easier flanking and larger frontage. That way they are more useful.

Clear line between swords and spear would not be realistic if swords would always beat spears. There are good units in both types. Difference is that sword unit have more damage and have higher melee attack than spears so most of the time they will win while spears have large problems with armoured units but are better against cavalry.

[argyrisgr97]

That makes sense,thank you.I just remembered before the udate swords had around 11 damage while spears 9.Now they are equals.Can be wrong thought.

[KAM 2150]

Spears have 10 and swords have 11-12 plus bonuses depending on the weapon itself like Gladius having AP damage, Hellenic swords granting small buff vs other infantry, Barb swords having higher base damage etc. There is still more to do in little tweaks but more or less stuff are in the place I want them to be.

[Artannis Wolfrunner]

I'm wondering about the difference between Weapon Damage and Weapon Deadliness. I see that some units have Weapon Deadliness (~3) but pay for it with a much lower Weapon Damage (6-7) versus some units having higher Weapon Damage (~10) but 0 Weapon Deadliness or Weapon Deadliness is not listed on their stat card at all. Super heavy cataphract horses have very low Weapon Damage but 3 Weapon Deadliness, but I don't see how this affects them in battle.

Example: Hayasdan
Armenian Thorakitai: 11 Weapon Damage, 0 Weapon Deadliness
Nakharar Thorakitai: 7 Weapon Damage, 3 Weapon Deadliness

How do these stat differences compare with the game's battle mechanics?

[KAM 2150]

That is a thing I am testing but since I don't get any negative reports I guess it is working. Overal it means that those units can be better vs armoured enemies. That is due to a thing that, while you can set a weapon to have armour piercing and armour penetrating attribute, it does not work, which CA confirmed. This means that if you want a weapon to be better vs armour, you need to give it deadliness (which is in game AP value), which bypasses the armour. For example maces have the most AP damage but lower total damage. Only other way of making those weapons better vs armour would be to give them only high basic damage but outside of being better vs armour, they would absolutely maul any unarmoured unit even more.

In theory and in practice I hope it works like this, you have 1 elite armoured sword unit, 1 light sword unit and 1 light mace unit. Both light units will stand no chance against elite armoured unit but out of the two, mace unit should do more damage to them while same light mace unit will lose to light sword unit.

[Artannis Wolfrunner]

Explanation

Okay, thank you for the explanation. I don't know how you figured out how the numbers work in this game, but bless you for doing so.

[projectcorner]

That is a thing I am testing but since I don't get any negative reports I guess it is working. Overal it means that those units can be better vs armoured enemies. That is due to a thing that, while you can set a weapon to have armour piercing and armour penetrating attribute, it does not work, which CA confirmed. This means that if you want a weapon to be better vs armour, you need to give it deadliness (which is in game AP value), which bypasses the armour. For example maces have the most AP damage but lower total damage. Only other way of making those weapons better vs armour would be to give them only high basic damage but outside of being better vs armour, they would absolutely maul any unarmoured unit even more.

In theory and in practice I hope it works like this, you have 1 elite armoured sword unit, 1 light sword unit and 1 light mace unit. Both light units will stand no chance against elite armoured unit but out of the two, mace unit should do more damage to them while same light mace unit will lose to light sword unit.

KAM I noticed that in the latest patch, axes are changed to 7+3 while other weapons remains the same. Meanwhile the armor of all the units decreases significantly. May I know what is the intention of this change? How is it gonna affect the units' performance on the battlefield?

[quachandy99]

Hi Kam,
thanks for the fix from your team and love the team work
this time I see that the Javelin that they throw now is more deadly than the last update (patch 17 with 1.2.2b) which I don’t really affriad the Roman or any melee unit that have javelin but now I do. I’m not sure is intentional or you guys just over buff it, no offense but I really love how you guys implement it and it force me to change tactics while I play as successors kingdom that I have to fight lighting fast as Alexander back in the day and I can’t play defensive while I have pike in my army unless they have any unit that have a lot of javelins

[Seljuq Prince]

Hoplites in phalanx don't rout or take damage easily when they attacked from flanks or behind, is it normal ? Played against syracussa in thirtiesh turns as Romans. Tnx for the updates by the way

[KAM 2150]

Exactly how I described it 5 posts above.

[projectcorner]

Exactly how I described it 5 posts above.

Thanks and I definitely know the game mechanism. My question is on the purpose of making axe 7+3 instead of 8+2, and lowering armor of all units.

In my understanding, lowering armor of all units would make ap damage less significant, because ap damage neglects the armor values. However, it will also speed up the battle if nothing else change. So is there any change on the hit chance as well?

[KAM 2150]

Just for testing purpose to be honest so that axe is a bit closer to mace in case of damage rather than to gladius.

[projectcorner]

Just for testing purpose to be honest so that axe is a bit closer to mace in case of damage rather than to gladius.

Are there any heavy inf/cavs wielding maces in the game? The only unit I found using mace in custom battle is gallic clubmen, but it is very likely i missed something.

[KAM 2150]

There are plenty of those, like Indian maceman but less than axe units. In case of cav there are no pure mace cavalry units, mostly mixed swords, maces and axes so they use their own entry.

[projectcorner]

There are plenty of those, like Indian maceman but less than axe units. In case of cav there are no pure mace cavalry units, mostly mixed swords, maces and axes so they use their own entry.

So if a unit has half men using sword and half men using axe, half would be using the data of sword and half would be axe, regardless of what is shown in the unit stats display？

[Dresden]

Units can only be assigned stats for one weapon if I remember correctly.