Sauromatae & Pastoral Settlements

I've recently been playing through a campaign as the Sarmatians and noticed a few problems, most of which have to do in one way or another with pastoral regions.

1) Once a pastoral camp has been converted into a pastoral town, the "Large Pastoral Settlement" (hinterland_pastoral_city p_city) does not automatically appear (or upgrade from the existing tag building, whichever). I'm fairly sure that the settlements which start the campaign as towns already have p_city, so this problem is unique to the conversion script. The primary reason this is a problem is the way in which the p_city building interacts with the nomadic farms and herds building trees. Right now, the player can choose not to build the p_city building, and then build the camp versions of the nomadic farms and herds (including horse_one and horse_two!), which seems not to be the intent behind pastoral settlements.

The rest of the problems I've found pertain only to Sauromatae, and mostly have to do with available buildings.

2) While Sauro has access to level 2 caravans, the second level of caravan does not appear to be available with any government lower than Sauromatian settled administration. This is a moot point, because the only factional government available to pastoral regions is Kinsmen's Land. I also find it really strange that Sarmatians can't build level 2 caravans in their camps, since there is no available alternative (which is to say you can't build trading centers in them). In pastoral regions, the player can upgrade their caravans to level two by first constructing a closely allied government. There is no work-around for camps.

3) Sauromatae seems to have access to level 3 trade centers, but the 3rd level is unavailable in pastoral regions with factional governments. Perhaps this is intentional to some point (a case could easily be made that full redundancy between trade centers and trade caravans doesn't make sense, or that they should be exclusive to some level), but the player can again get around this by building an allied government.

4) The player cannot build level 4 pastoral farms with a factional government. According to EDB, it appears that this building requires SSA, which once again is not available in pastoral regions. Again, the player can work around this by switching to an allied government.

5) A granary cannot be established at all in pastoral regions. For Sauromatae, granaries require SSA, and there is no alternative, since they cannot be established using an allied government. Perhaps this was an intentional design choice, but I cannot really think of any reason why pastoral settlements and granaries would be mutually exclusive.

6) This isn't exactly a bug, but Khsiragatai Zakhtae's steppe nomadism culture is so high that it can't really be converted by Sauromatae without building an allied government in order to first push eleutheroi culture in the province. The reason I mention it at all is it's really a bit counter-intuitive and a very roundabout way of getting from point A to point B.

That's all I've noticed so far. If something else comes up, I'll jot it down as well.

I'll have to look into the interactions with pastoral settlements - 1) to 4) don't sound necessarily intentional. 5) definitely is intentional - a pastoral region is one that has a distributed urban makeup, rather than a centralised one like regular provinces. The Granary building represents a centralised storage/control system which wouldn't work there.

Pastoral regions are supposed to be different to regular ones, that includes certain buildings either not being available, or not being able to be developed as far because of the nature of the region.

If a pastoral town is intended to represent a distributed urban makeup, wouldn't that preclude the construction of trade centers as well? In my opinion a trade center would require about as much centralization as a granary would. If that building was also removed, however, a pastoral town becomes a glorified camp with roads, whose taxes you can change. Going back to point 1, if a player chooses not to build p_city, they can upgrade the walls of a pastoral settlement beyond the normal limit, which again seems unintended.

I was under the impression that pastoral towns were something of a hybrid, which by definition means they're more centralized than camps. From a gameplay standpoint, pastoral settlements lacking granaries makes sense, since they already have access to both herds and farms. If that's the case, however, is that something which will be implemented for all factions, or will it be unique to Sauromatae and other nomadic factions?

Pastoral regions being different than normal towns completely makes sense and is something I can get behind. The problem is that in this case, a closely allied oligarchy seems to be superior than Kinsmen's land. The game-y solution is using an allied gubmint to construct all available buildings, then switching to a factional gubmint for long term occupation and recruitment. While that is certainly doable, it really doesn't make much sense from a role-play point of view. Moreover, from a gameplay perspective, at that point it feels like you're jumping through hoops simply for the sake of jumping through hoops.

Originally Posted by rhavviepoodle

I've recently been playing through a campaign as the Sarmatians and noticed a few problems, most of which have to do in one way or another with pastoral regions.

1) Once a pastoral camp has been converted into a pastoral town, the "Large Pastoral Settlement" (hinterland_pastoral_city p_city) does not automatically appear (or upgrade from the existing tag building, whichever). I'm fairly sure that the settlements which start the campaign as towns already have p_city, so this problem is unique to the conversion script. The primary reason this is a problem is the way in which the p_city building interacts with the nomadic farms and herds building trees. Right now, the player can choose not to build the p_city building, and then build the camp versions of the nomadic farms and herds (including horse_one and horse_two!), which seems not to be the intent behind pastoral settlements.

Do you have a building called "Pastoral Region" in the settlement? If so, after the settlement converts to a town-type settlement, you should be able to build the "Large Pastoral Region". If that's not the case, then - assuming you haven't modded your v2.3 - send me the save file so I can investigate.

As for Granaries, L1 should be buildable, but not 2 or 3.

As for Allied Govs serving as an exploit to get around the Pastoral City limits, the EDB code should prohibit that.

Yes, the "Pastoral Region" building exists in the provinces. The problem I mentioned is that (if the player chooses/forgets to upgrade it as you mentioned) it starts interacting with the camp-specific buildings in weird ways. I do not know if it is possible for the script to automatically upgrade the pastoral region to large pastoral settlement, but that's the first solution that comes to mind.

No, granaries are simply unavailable in pastoral regions.

I don't even know if I would call it an exploit? Really, I don't know if there were intended to be different limits on pastoral towns than there are on regular towns. The buildings tab is the same, and I haven't seen a description that says trade centers and granaries are incompatible with a pastoral region, so pastoral towns having different limits doesn't exactly seem obvious to me. I'm talking about buildings that, as far as I can tell, are regularly available to the faction. In fact, I wouldn't mind the construction limits being different between the two, but a bit of consistency and/or clarity would go a long way here. If I can't build level 4 pastoral farms with a factional government, it doesn't particularly make sense that I can build it with an allied government.

Small tangent here: I think in large part, the problem is due to the fact that Sauromatae governments are more of a binary than a proper hierarchy. The highest level governments generally allow for constructing the highest levels of most building trees for most factions. Often, the highest level governments are only available for construction within a specific geographical range, based on the faction in question. For example, Areuakoi can build Kortika Karuo (Pact of Hospitality) in western europe, but not confederations. This makes sense, really. The farther away a colony is from its homelands (or seat of power, or whatever), the more difficult it would be for an empire to directly influence and control the management of said province. As far as I can tell, this is the reason why allied governments exist: instead of trying to micromanage everything the traditional way, the empire chooses to run a province by proxy. Sauromatae get to run Khersonesos with the same government that they might run Gader with. In fairness, Sarmatian settled administration is fairly robust, which I can't complain about. However, the other half of the binary (Kinsmen's land) is weak tea, and there is no better alternative for Sauromatae in camps and pastoral regions, even in their homelands. That means the Sarmatians have less control over construction in Khsiragatai Zakhtae than they do Khersonesos--in fact, in order to build all their available buildings in converted Khsiragatai, they must first build a closely allied government. The idea that an allied government has more direct control over construction in one of the very homeland provinces of Sauromatae just seems silly to me.

Is it possible that there could be another level of government drawn up? Perhaps a happy medium between the two, particularly for pastoral regions? I imagine it'd either be that or making Kinsmen's land a bit more powerful with regards to construction. In later 2.2 builds, I recall you could switch over to SSA in pastoral regions, which in turn meant that you could build local colonies in these provinces. I really would quite enjoy if that were the case, but I'm fairly sure it was intentionally changed to not work that way anymore.

Kull, I assembled a few relevant bits from EDB to illustrate the problems I mentioned.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Kinsmen's land requires the pastoral city tag.

sauro_acl requires factions { f_sauromatae, } and building_present hinterland_pastoral_city and not building_present govallied and region_religion rel_b 20

SSA is incompatible with the pastoral city tag.

sauro_admin requires factions { f_sauromatae, } and building_present core_building and not building_present hinterland_pastoral_city and not building_present govallied and event_counter ecSauro_Settled 1

Granary requires SSA. Note it can't be built with an allied government.

granary_one city requires factions { all, } and building_present_min_level govrome socit or building_present_min_level govcarthage carthage_polis or building_present_min_level govkh kh2 or building_present_min_level govhayasdan hay_satrap or building_present_min_level govparthia parth_pbm or building_present_min_level govaedui aedui_mig or building_present_min_level govarverni arverni_mig or building_present_min_level govcasse casse_grtribe or building_present_min_level govluso luso_mig or building_present_min_level govsweboz sweboz_mig or building_present_min_level govgetai getai_pettyking or building_present_min_level govsaba saba_clients or building_present_min_level govsaka saka_autsat or building_present_min_level govsauro sauro_admin or building_present_min_level govnumidia numidia3 or building_present_min_level govgandhara gandhara_local or building_present_min_level govlugia lugia_subject or building_present_min_level govbospor bosptyra or building_present_min_level govarevaci arevaci_pact or building_present_min_level govboii boii_mig or building_present_min_level govnabatu nabatu_sat or building_present_min_level govbaktria baktria1 or building_present_min_level govmakedonia makedonia2 or building_present_min_level govpergamon pergamon2 or building_present_min_level govptolemaioi ptolemaioi2 or building_present_min_level govepeiros epeiros2 or building_present_min_level govpontos pontos2 or building_present_min_level govseleukid seleukid1

Same, but with level 3 markets this time.

market_three city requires factions { all, } and building_present_min_level govrome civlib or building_present_min_level govcarthage carthageprec or building_present_min_level govkh kh2 or building_present_min_level govhayasdan hay_caucas or building_present_min_level govparthia parth_acl or building_present_min_level govaedui aedui_protect or building_present_min_level govarverni arverni_protect or building_present_min_level govcasse casse_protect or building_present_min_level govluso luso_protect or building_present_min_level govsweboz sweboz_protect or building_present_min_level govgetai getai_protect or building_present_min_level govsaba saba_tribal or building_present_min_level govsaka saka_admin or building_present_min_level govsauro sauro_admin or building_present_min_level govnumidia numidia3 or building_present_min_level govgandhara gandhara_local or building_present_min_level govlugia lugia_protect or building_present_min_level govbospor bospallcl or building_present_min_level govarevaci arevaci_allied or building_present_min_level govboii boii_protect or building_present_min_level govnabatu nabatu_confed or building_present_min_level govbaktria baktria3 or building_present_min_level govmakedonia makedonia5 or building_present_min_level govpergamon pergamon5 or building_present_min_level govptolemaioi ptolemaioi5 or building_present_min_level govepeiros epeiros5 or building_present_min_level govpontos pontos3 or building_present_min_level govseleukid seleukid3 or building_present_min_level govallied oligone

Level 4 pastoral farms require p_city and SSA, but as earlier established SSA is mutually exclusive with p_city. It can be built with a closely allied government.

pastfarms_six city requires factions { all, } and building_present_min_level hinterland_pastoral_city p_city and building_present_min_level govrome civlib or building_present_min_level govcarthage carthage_colony or building_present_min_level govkh kh2 or building_present_min_level govhayasdan hay_caucas or building_present_min_level govparthia parth_acl or building_present_min_level govaedui aedui_protect or building_present_min_level govarverni arverni_protect or building_present_min_level govcasse casse_protect or building_present_min_level govluso luso_protect or building_present_min_level govsweboz sweboz_protect or building_present_min_level govgetai getai_protect or building_present_min_level govsaba saba_tribal or building_present_min_level govsaka saka_autsat or building_present_min_level govsauro sauro_admin or building_present_min_level govnumidia numidia4 or building_present_min_level govgandhara gandhara_local or building_present_min_level govlugia lugia_protect or building_present_min_level govbospor bospallcl or building_present_min_level govarevaci arevaci_allied or building_present_min_level govboii boii_protect or building_present_min_level govnabatu nabatu_confed or building_present_min_level govbaktria baktria3 or building_present_min_level govmakedonia makedonia5 or building_present_min_level govpergamon pergamon5 or building_present_min_level govptolemaioi ptolemaioi5 or building_present_min_level govepeiros epeiros5 or building_present_min_level govpontos pontos3 or building_present_min_level govseleukid seleukid3 or building_present_min_level govallied oligtwo

Since closely allied oligarchies can't be built in camps, the level 2 trade caravan is effectively not accessible to Sarmatian camps at this point.

caravan requires factions { all, } and building_present hinterland_pastoral_city and building_present_min_level govrome civlib or building_present_min_level govcarthage carthageprec or building_present_min_level govkh kh2 or building_present_min_level govhayasdan hay_caucas or building_present_min_level govparthia parth_acl or building_present_min_level govaedui aedui_protect or building_present_min_level govarverni arverni_protect or building_present_min_level govcasse casse_protect or building_present_min_level govluso luso_protect or building_present_min_level govsweboz sweboz_protect or building_present_min_level govgetai getai_protect or building_present_min_level govsaba saba_tribal or building_present_min_level govsaka saka_admin or building_present_min_level govsauro sauro_admin or building_present_min_level govnumidia numidia3 or building_present_min_level govgandhara gandhara_local or building_present_min_level govlugia lugia_protect or building_present_min_level govbospor bospallcl or building_present_min_level govarevaci arevaci_allied or building_present_min_level govboii boii_protect or building_present_min_level govnabatu nabatu_confed or building_present_min_level govbaktria baktria3 or building_present_min_level govmakedonia makedonia5 or building_present_min_level govpergamon pergamon5 or building_present_min_level govptolemaioi ptolemaioi5 or building_present_min_level govepeiros epeiros5 or building_present_min_level govpontos pontos3 or building_present_min_level govseleukid seleukid3 or building_present_min_level govallied oligtwo

OK, I was concerned that it was simply unbuildable. If the player opts not to construct it, well, that's a different matter. Also, it's not that anything weird will happen, you just won't have access to a variety of new buildings and levels. As to the issue of the Sauromatae Gov structure, yes that's something that needs to be looked at. As Quintus noted in our internal discussion on this, the Sauro Gov structure (as opposed to Saka and Pahlava) is "too flat".

To clarify what's in and what's out of Pastoral Settlements, here's my original post from the concepting phase of the system - specific to what can be built and to what level:

Originally Posted by Kull

Thinking about the composition of the "Pastoral Settlement", it would be beneficial to have something that is noticeably different from the "normal" settlement or the "standard camp". It's important to emphasize that this settlement type is intended for regions that have (and will maintain) a high level of pastoral activity. Accordingly:

1) Farms: Can build all three levels of the Nomad Farm. At city it gets a new Nomad L4 (buildable only in this settlement type) and if we allow Large Cities, add a new L5. That means we can change the descriptions of these L4 and L5 farms to be something quite different from the "Carthaginian model" Quintus alluded to above. It also maintains a different "look" for all farm buildings in this settlement.

2) Herds: We should probably restrict this to just the "stock" line, which, with the precursor, gives you three levels. I know Arjos suggested we have an "either/or" for the top level of Farms/Herds, but we're going to limit the Pastoral City in other areas, so we help them out here. As a reminder, normal towns can't build these.

3) Caravans: Can build both levels. Another structure not present in normal towns.

4) Ports: Here we would NOT use the nomad ports since these are true settlements, but in keeping with the pastoral theme, these should be capped, preferably at L1. That's still a nice economic bonus.

5) Temples: These could go all the way to L5. Don't see any reason to differentiate this structure from "normal" types.

6) Mines: Buildable up to L2, no different than "normal" types.

7) Industry: Buildable up to L1. There are some scattered instances that suggest something higher was occasionally possible, but it's rare. Plus, this is one of the offsets we need to cover the extra benefits arising from Herds and Caravans.

8) River Ports: Buildable up to L2, no different than "normal" types.

9) Markets: These go up to L5, and certainly in central Asia that seems appropriate, but it's probably too much for other regions. Maybe play this by ear and see if there's ways to restrict the levels elsewhere.

10) Coastal Patrols: Not buildable as they really don't fit the theme of "Pastoral Settlements".

11) Granary: In most cases we treat this as "food imports" and it implies a high level of centralization that's not quite in keeping with the theme of most of these new settlements. Definitely L1, but no higher.

12) Game Fields: Nomadic cultures are currently restricted to L1 anyway, and that seems an appropriate limit here as well.

13) Roads: Buildable up to L1, as discussed elsewhere.

14) Walls: No difference.

15) Academies: Nomadic cultures are currently restricted to L1, and that seems an appropriate limit here as well.

16) Road Garrisons: This one is tricky. Buildable up to L1, certainly, but you also need L2 in order to get the L2 Mines. Probably have to allow L2, then.