FORTS and WATCHTOWERS

[Roma_Victrix]

I think only the player makes problems with the use of the forts - I haven't seen AI setting up the forts in the other games (but I might be wrong).
I share your feeling (and it Byg seemed to share it as well): prohibitively expensive forts might be left in the game. However, I've got no slightest idea how to re-introduce them.

Cool. I figured it out anyway! As hinted here in this thread, you just edit the "descr_campaign_db" file under the data folder, changing the line

<can_build_forts bool="false"/>

...to read true instead of false:

<can_build_forts bool="true"/>

[Jurand of Cracow]

Where to adjust costs?

[selv]

In descr_cultures, fort_cost line in each culture section. Watchtower cost are there too if you want. Say, maybe you guys want to experiment something? Try setting some permanent forts in remote part of the map and spawn some ai armies there (not slave), to see if only these armies are interested in the forts or if the entire behavior of the factions get screwed?

<destroy_empty_forts bool="false"/>, above your <can_build_forts bool="true"/> line to make fort permanent. If you try, could you by any chance upload me the descr_campaign_ai from SSHIP? I have no direct interest in stainless steel but I have no time to experiment on my own now? If you have time/will...

[Jurand of Cracow]

Thanks, guys! Actually, I have no intention to re-introduce forts, I just wanted to have the info about such possibility for those players who prefer to have them.
Nevertheless, it's very interesting for me that you can make it different for different factions. This would allow, for instance, to make, for instance, them 50k for HRR, but 10k for the Cumans.

[Roma_Victrix]

Cool beans. I'll be sure to up the cost of forts for my current Venetian campaign. At the moment they are only a measly 3,500 florins! I'd like to discourage the AI from building them, so I'll make them 20,000 florins. I think that's reasonable, not too stringent either.

[Jurand of Cracow]

Yep, it's what I also deem reasonable. What do you think about the costs of the watchtowers?

[Roma_Victrix]

Yep, it's what I also deem reasonable. What do you think about the costs of the watchtowers?

In reality building a watchtower wouldn't cost 500 florins, but since you consider watchtowers as mere symbols for local intelligence-gathering networks and teams of spies, then I'd say 1000 is reasonable. I haven't changed it from 500 florins in my own campaign, though. I've only increased the cost of forts in descr_cultures.

[Steward Denethor II]

It's a shame the AI is so bad at handling forts.

Another big issue is that the AI never sallies from a fort, ever. You could besiege any fort with 1 unit of peasants and starve out any army.

[Jurand of Cracow]

Yeah, I was not thinking about having buildable stone forts. That is unbalanced and unrealistic. I was only mentioning certain preplaced forts that are historical minor settlements. Titanium mod had them and called them minor settlements; they even had their real names. It was fun but unfortunately that the AI is bad with forts; might be better to not do that.

Forts:
- pre-placed forts in some spots could go, but they would be in the areas with very rare regular settlements (so not in Western / Southern Europe) so it neither would please the players, not be very much historical.
- on the other hand, I think that buildable (these would disappear after vacated) fort with prohibitive price (20-40k) could be an option for they could be dump for unwanted money.

This is actually a good opportunity to ask the players of 2 things:

- What are your strategies for 097 with placing with Watchtowers? Do you consider it as expensive outlay? Is it the first thing to do? How does it differ between the factions? What do you think about current price of 1k (if it doesn't matter to you then it means it's too little )?

- Given the argument I've made before in this thread and your experience with this and the other mods: what do you think about the idea of buildable forts with prohibitive price (and no free upkeep)? If yes, how high the price should be set? I think building them can be restricted to certain faction but not conditional by historical events (or am I wrong?)

[Kilo11]

Watchtowers: I am a person who needs to see everything in my provinces. So I build watchtowers across every bit of land to make sure I can see all of regions. Given that, I find expensive watchtowers somewhat annoying, as it makes them difficult to add everywhere. However, I think there is something that could be done to balance your and my views on watchtowers. Namely, I think it would make sense for there to already be watchtowers placed on the map at campaign start wherever roads are supposed to go, or in places where there were historic settlements. I mean, obviously a prince wouldn't have visibility over every corner of his realm, especially not those random unpeopled corners, but if an army started rolling down your main roads, you can bet a rider would probably bring word home. Same thing for if an army comes to an outlying settlement. So I would be okay with watchtowers keeping their current (rather high) price, if there are more of them on campaign start.

Forts: I never used forts much, and I also never noticed the issues you have mentioned. I will need to think about it more first. Maybe I'll have thoughts tomorrow though.

[Steward Denethor II]

I don't really see the point of having forts that are 20000 gold coins. It might mess up the AI as well.

I think it was a good decision making watchtowers expensive; basically having watchtowers everywhere is for rich factions, and even fabulously wealthy factions won't want to throw it around for no reason.

[AnthoniusII]

Watch towers never stoped to build untill 17th century. Espesialy in Meditaranean Coasts Watch towers were used very close to one another to provide early raid warnings. Also Watchtowers were build in mountai paths with small gaurisson to provide early warning for bandits tp the travelers. I live close to one that was build in the shore of a lake to warn people not to try to cross the frozen lake in the winter thinking that under the snow was land instead of water and it wa sbased on a cross road that the other road lead to the north gates of Thessalonika.

[Jurand of Cracow]

Reminder for the record : the visibility range of the towers is hardcoded.
Discussion here, it was obviously discerned earlier.