Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 21 to 29 of 29

Thread: [M] - Home rules to prevent exploiting of the M2TW engine deficiencies

  1. #21
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
    Artifex

    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Cracovia
    Posts
    3,240

    Default Re: Home rules to prevent exploiting of the M2TW engine deficiencies

    Quote Originally Posted by Der Böse Wolf View Post
    Why not sending the Javelinmen behind enemy lines?
    I think it's a normal move.

    Same for throwing javelins in the back of your own troops: sometimes desperate situations require desperate measures even if it causes the death of your own men.

    Ps: the link to the EBII thread is not functional.
    Javs behind the lines - I think it would never happen otherwise as an accidental situation of javs appearing somewhere just behind the lines because of a command / planning error. The enemy wouldn't allow it, the lightly armoured (and not very brave) men wouldn't make such a "suicidal" move, and the lack of knowledge of what's going on on the battlefield wouldn't make any general to do such orders. The javelinmenn were for something different. All in all - I don't think it's historical either in the ancient times, or in the middle ages.

    Shooting at the back of your troops - maybe in desperate situations, but in general I don't think it's historical.

    Link - for me it works, hmm.

    PS @DBW - I'll have a take on your previous proposals and comments when the time is ripe (eg I'll have some firm thoughts ;-)

  2. #22

    Default Re: Home rules to prevent exploiting of the M2TW engine deficiencies

    Quote Originally Posted by Jurand of Cracow View Post
    Javs behind the lines - I think it would never happen otherwise as an accidental situation of javs appearing somewhere just behind the lines because of a command / planning error. The enemy wouldn't allow it, the lightly armoured (and not very brave) men wouldn't make such a "suicidal" move, and the lack of knowledge of what's going on on the battlefield wouldn't make any general to do such orders. The javelinmenn were for something different. All in all - I don't think it's historical either in the ancient times, or in the middle ages.

    Shooting at the back of your troops - maybe in desperate situations, but in general I don't think it's historical.
    I think that the prohibition of sending the javelinmen behind enemy lines is not historical:
    After all, javelinmen are light infantry armed with javelins. So the prohibition may actually means that you can't ambush/flank attack your enemy by the maneuver of light infantry. Apparently, it's not historical.


    And for throwing javelins in the back of your own troops, I think it's the problem of game engine's limitation: it can not handle complicated battle formation and tactics. The game engine itself is not historical.
    With great discipline, light infantry(with sling, javelin, or bows) can execute various missions on battlefield. For example, when the medieval army of Byzantine empire at its height(highly professional and excellent discipline), they can deploy a kind of battle formation which requires complicated maneuver:

    "The emperor himself led out from camp the bravest and most robust soldiers and arranged the divisions on the battlefield, deploying the ironclad horseman in the van, and ordering the archers and slingers to shoot at the enemy from behind. He himself took his position on the right wing, bring with him a vast squadron of cavalryman, while John Tzimiskes... fought on the left...when the emperor ordered the trumpets to sound the charge, one could see the Roman divisions move into action with incredible precision, as the entire plain sparkled with the gleam of their armor.The Tarsians could not withstand such an onslaught; force back by the thrusts and spears and by the missiles of the shooting from behind." (a record by the historian Leo the Deacon in 965 on battle of Tarsos )

    We can see that the most important commanders were all on the wings to conduct frontal and flank attack. Of course the light infantry with javelins, slings or bows in the center would not shoot at their own emperor and his troops.

  3. #23
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
    Artifex

    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Cracovia
    Posts
    3,240

    Default Re: Home rules to prevent exploiting of the M2TW engine deficiencies

    Pro memoria:
    - I've updated the list with no 13: no retraining, only merging of the units (I've been convinced after discussion at the EBII forum);
    - I’ve added no. 14 concerning javelins as discussed below (I disagree with Lord Komnenos on this);
    - I discern the same way of thinking concerning no 1 (no killing of bad generals) in the Rome 2 TW update (or in the DEI 1.2.3 - I don't what comes from the patch and what from the mod): if a politician of an opposition party is killed in battle, the faction gets a heavy hit on loyalty (-24) and this may prompt a revolt soon (or outright). So the authors also think killing a difficult character is not up to the rules.
    (and I still have to think more thoroughly the interesting entry by DBW, #12)

  4. #24

    Default Re: Home rules to prevent exploiting of the M2TW engine deficiencies

    Quote Originally Posted by Jurand of Cracow View Post
    Pro memoria:
    - I've updated the list with no 13: no retraining, only merging of the units (I've been convinced after discussion at the EBII forum);
    - I’ve added no. 14 concerning javelins as discussed below (I disagree with Lord Komnenos on this);
    - I discern the same way of thinking concerning no 1 (no killing of bad generals) in the Rome 2 TW update (or in the DEI 1.2.3 - I don't what comes from the patch and what from the mod): if a politician of an opposition party is killed in battle, the faction gets a heavy hit on loyalty (-24) and this may prompt a revolt soon (or outright). So the authors also think killing a difficult character is not up to the rules.
    (and I still have to think more thoroughly the interesting entry by DBW, #12)
    Im looking forward to your remarks.

    Can you please provider the link to the discussion in EBII regarding the merging of units?
    Frei zu sein, bedarf ist wenig, nur wer frei ist, ist ein König.

    Current Hotseat:
    Britannia: The Isles of Chaos

  5. #25
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
    Artifex

    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Cracovia
    Posts
    3,240

    Default Re: Home rules to prevent exploiting of the M2TW engine deficiencies

    Quote Originally Posted by Der Böse Wolf View Post
    Can you please provider the link to the discussion in EBII regarding the merging of units?
    This thread.
    The topic is about something different: the lack of losses in the EBII battle system. In my taste, the SSHIP provides for a better gameplay experience than the EBII in this respect. I've always wanted the game to make it difficult for the player to take several provinces in a row (this was also a goal for MWY, who apparently crafted this system, according to his words). The SSHIP does it in a very good way.

    Phases of a strategic operation

    First, preparations:
    1. you need to collect money to raise the necessary army (it's usually
    an addition to your current garrison),
    2. you need to wait for the recruits to gather (ie the recruitment pools need to fill),
    3. you need to recruit the units (some units take more than one turn (heavy cavalry: 3), the availability of the recruitment slots may slow you down)

    4. you need to get a good general in place to lead your forces (sometimes he has to travel from the other side of your kingdom - he's to be loyal so that he doesn't defect),
    5. you need to prepare the city for your army leaving (eg. build more public order related buildings as the benefits from garrison are disappearing, get another general with public order abilities).
    (in the SS-BGR you also have to ensure the general has the War Councillor ancillary, is not bankrupt etc.)

    Second, a campaign:

    1. you need to travel to the relevant place - the
    tmodelsksubmod provides for the supply costs during the expedition (in the base SS it was the BGR submod that provided for this effect in a very elaborate way)
    2. you need to fight the enemy's armies and you suffer losses (this is the point I've made on the EBII page: in that bigmod there're little while I think an army on the offensive always melts away)
    3. if you still have enough troops, you need to siege and possibly storm the city.

    (during a serious campaign I usually have no budget surplus - everything is spent on upkeep and supply costs, if there're units lost and their upkeep is saved, I use it to recruit the new ones)

    Third, a cool-off period:
    1. some of your units took losses so you need to replenish your ranks - come back to the recruitment center or recruit a new units army and send it to the front (
    you need cash for both, and also the new recruits' pools)
    2. at the same time, the unrest in the conquered city (after-conquest, natural, sometimes religious) forces you to keep your army to provide public order, also your general (even the king) must sometimes reside here for a long time.
    (it happened to me that my 6-dread general had to stay in the city till his death as nobody could keep this city from rebelling (it was city of Novgorod while I was playing Poland), I also had to keep 16+ units garrison).

    3. you need to build a few buildings providing public order (gallows, church, etc). (the EBII is doing the best job here with slow colonization process and various PO buildings - while the "client-ruler" has flaws: too fast and making family members less relevant, imho)
    4. in this phase I usually disband the expensive troops - heavy feudal
    cavalry, mercenaries, and sometimes heavy infantry - to get the budget out of the red. I cannot keep them in the line because they are so costly while I need the money for the buildings and other stuff. Furthermore - and this is different from the other mods - the feudal troops' recruitment costs almost equal their upkeep lowering the benefits of keeping them in line.

    All this mean that I can't go immediately to take another province after having taken one or two. In this sense the price/budget balance is done in a very good way in the SSHIP, in my experience. All hinges on this - if you've got too much money, then there's little that can slow you down.


    /obviously, a perfect counterpart to this logic would be the Ideal recruitment system, if anybody would do it/


    Unfortunately, it's not what I had experienced playing Pergamon in the EBII. It was rather steam-rolling the enemy, once I got the right units. This might be because it's a strong faction and has an initial alliance with the powerful Seleukids, but it might be a feature of the game. It's to be seen in the future, I'm going to play 2.35 when it's published.
    Last edited by Jurand of Cracow; August 23, 2018 at 06:21 AM.

  6. #26

    Default Re: Home rules to prevent exploiting of the M2TW engine deficiencies

    Quote Originally Posted by Dekhatres View Post
    no instant sieges, even if you have siege weapons, wait 2 turns before attacking, just like the AI
    (Y)

  7. #27
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
    Artifex

    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Cracovia
    Posts
    3,240

    Default Re: Home rules to prevent exploiting of the M2TW engine deficiencies

    Yes, the possibility of an instant assault with the siege weapons is one of the exploits with the TW engines. It is worse in the Rome 2 TW (I play with DEI) - you can storm settlements without any siege engine, and you can do it even with large settlements with the walls. There's little room for the operational movements with your army.
    However, I think that this problem should be solved by the modders - my own frameworks for this is described here, and in the Broken Crescent it's been introduced by WeekendGeneral.

  8. #28

    Default Re: Home rules to prevent exploiting of the M2TW engine deficiencies

    Realy cool ideas I see here. Need more time to digest it. With one, I dont agree. Crusading/jihad options should be eliminated. Im strongly against those mechanics. About religious units, simply give them to apropriate factions... Example: Crusader states, Aragon, Rum, etc, etc.. Faction would behave much better overall without this mechanics.

  9. #29

    Default Re: Home rules to prevent exploiting of the M2TW engine deficiencies

    For number 1, I thought kings would sometimes kill people who were too high influence. Since you can’t make an assassin kill someone’s of your own faction, then you need other ways.

Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •