NEW DBM development:Testing phase of DBM 2.0

[Rick]

The mere fact that you are committed to this task is admirable.

[Grauman]

Which year will the campaign start?


Same as in the old version?

[rafmc1989]

Nope, now it's 321 BC, two years after Alexander departure, and goes up to the early years of Augustus empire, in 10-20 AD

Then, ok, for the future we can keep an idea for a late timeframe too, like a custom campaign... (same factions, same units: unless I'll be asked to reskin them all for the timeframe, pretty impossible! but you never know )

[selv]

Well, if you are interested, I actually redistributed some provinces from your map to the east, and here is the result;

https://i.imgur.com/mc4O3KQ.png

Yes, it is what I thought you had in mind. And it's unfair to the east, all these relocated regions would turn huge in game, and in my humble taste, make the rest of the map suffer only to create a illusionary bigger world. 199 regions is just 199, no matter how you try to spread them. I would have 'copied' EB2 map if I thought it could work well.
I am no good at explaining probably but I have a logic, even when it doesn't look like it.
Italy has 16 provinces just like gauls for example, and both are more than just a land to conquer with a few battles and forget about it afterwards, coloring the map is the best way to quickly getting bored indeed. Glad you like my northen Italy at least but the rest look a little like the vanilla desert from med2 or even rome 1 on your redistribution. And it will hurt the ai factions supposed to give a good fight at various campaign stages in these parts.

Same with Ireland, what's the point of wasting a region slot on it, border eyes candy? You might never even see it even with playing a close faction unless you toogle_fow. If we can't give a fair representation to a less important place in global history from the time, we might as well keep it out. The rest of Britannia will be made interesting one way or the other at some point, even with only two real settlements, or who knows, maybe none at all someday...
I am scary right?
I don't look mean I hope? Not trying to, just to explain how I think of these things.

Thanks for your encouraging words.

[Mamlaz]

You are right about Britain, so I have another update to my proposition.

- 3 provinces removed from the British Isles, now is just 1 province
- 3 provinces returned to Italy
- 20% reduction in geographic width of the eastern addition
- 2 provinces removed from Eastern Europe
- 2 additional provinces in the eastern addition


https://i.imgur.com/NrFklTg.png


I do not see the problem with the southeastern Persian provinces being large, they were after all, by a good portion, barren areas with not much population at the time.


This is, you know, just in case you change your mind

[mastro.92]

very good project guys!! A question: how do you think to improve siege battles?

[selv]

Rafmc worked it out with EB2 to 'steal' their battles city files or at least what we need to correct the DBM sieges problems, since neither of us has much experience in using the ITME tool. It's still a delicate thing to do even with EB2 city battle model from what I know.

Mamlaz, we keep your other ideas in mind for a possible late era custom campaign in some unpredited future, but it is very unlikely that the map itself will see a re-expansion in this build. You might not believe how many time I pulled my hairs going insane trying to live with the famous 199 regions limit, and not only for this mod. You have just taught me about the mostly barren state of eastern lands after persia and such, but it might explain why finding some city names is not easy for these parts.
And so, it appear like a other reason to just keep them off map. The east won't be lacking action and we might simulate the further eastern lands by other means.

After the first version is released, I will try some original ideas to 'replace' some Islands settlements and Brittania but even if I can make it work, there won't be enought sacrifice possible to expand, only filling a few still too big regions in the current east, and possibly north africa and Iberia.

Just by curiosity, what is it with people and over extended map? It could be great if we had just, I don't know, 100 or more settlements slots maybe, and a few more factions, but we don't. Trying to even the entire known world feel like toning down the possibilities no?

[Mamlaz]

And hey, mamlaz, your historical research could be very useful to have real ancient names for the units, at least their title name (I did it for all the new units, but not for the other existing), wanna help?

I am not that well versed into antiquity that I read/write in ancient languages

Perhaps someone at Europa Barbarorum could be of assistance.

I can help with other historiography, in general.

Mamlaz, we keep your other ideas in mind for a possible late era custom campaign in some unpredited future, but it is very unlikely that the map itself will see a re-expansion in this build.

A later era campaign for future works is already something to be hopeful about

Just by curiosity, what is it with people and over extended map? It could be great if we had just, I don't know, 100 or more settlements slots maybe, and a few more factions, but we don't. Trying to even the entire known world feel like toning down the possibilities no?

Because it adds a lot to the gameplay in the Middle East, it adds the eastern section of the Hellenistic world.

Especially so for your start date, which goes back to feature the period of the Diadochi Wars.

Also, could you list the required historical info that you need?

Perhaps I could chip in.

Do you have a complete list of starting factions yet?

[rafmc1989]

Ok, guys, in case a modification of the map could be for a custom campaign (later timeframe as said), but first let's have the current one: otherwise we always edit, and never release I think you'll like.

The restricted map (although not that restricted, still sufficent space imo) is not that bad by the way, the AI reacts quickly, the expansions are somewhat hampered, as counterattacks can happen any time, and everything is reachable without odd behaviors... and rebels are soon defeated, as they are an unnecessary nuisance.

In the east, ok, I know, there could be again "baktria", although now there are the eastern satrapes (which is basically the same, apart the reskins done), and India again (but as said, the faction takes a bunch of land and does almost nothing while being op): moreover, I'm out of spaces for factions and units, so it has to be for a "custom release", no other way around.


Whereas, speaking of custom battlemaps, hehe, this area is rather complicate (trust me!)... the idea is to fill the empty spaces with real structures that have to cover those spaces, and then adapt other new building models to enrich the city environment (yes, in this case EBII is a very good example, they managed to go beyond what initially did by DBM, so now I try to find a common ground among the two creations): I try already for the first release, otherwise it will be in a small update after it (should be save-game compatible as well, as it represents only real battle maps)...


While for the historical background, ok, don't worry for the factions, already updated them... what may be needed is the title name of units as said: in case, Mamlaz, you can "study" from EB wiki and Divide et Impera from RTWII (theu also did a very accurate research), I took inspiration too, while playing the mod... A list with the updated names would be cool, then I adapt in the txts

[Mamlaz]

While for the historical background, ok, don't worry for the factions, already updated them

Could you please post the new faction list and perhaps their starting positions on the new map please?

[selv]

Ok, guys, in case a modification of the map could be for a custom campaign (later timeframe as said), but first let's have the current one: otherwise we always edit, and never release I think you'll like.

The restricted map (although not that restricted, still sufficent space imo) is not that bad by the way, the AI reacts quickly, the expansions are somewhat hampered, as counterattacks can happen any time, and everything is reachable without odd behaviors... and rebels are soon defeated, as they are an unnecessary nuisance.

In the east, ok, I know, there could be again "baktria", although now there are the eastern satrapes (which is basically the same, apart the reskins done), and India again (but as said, the faction takes a bunch of land and does almost nothing while being op): moreover, I'm out of spaces for factions and units, so it has to be for a "custom release", no other way around.

Yeah, no, I meant maybe do a late era campaign, based on the same campaign we have now with the same map and same concepts, features and ect... 'Just' changing the start date, faction positions and such to 180 bc. When/if the opportunity present at some point.
If some people badly want more east, they will have to do a 'remake' or just play the original DBM or EB2. More wide accessible landmass and too remote real factions don't add to the gameplay, it just create the illusion of it, while actually screwing up a lot of things, starting with the ai like you well said it.
199 regions will remain that, no way around it.

I gave a list of factions with my ask for starting characters names in the first posts, Memlaz. We might do a draw map with their starting positions few days before release but most must be pretty explanatory by names ?

Rafmc, my update will be there tomorow or sunday at late, a little delay in testing the new systems, especially the traits that didn't said their last words in giving me to think.

[Mamlaz]

I gave a list of factions with my ask for starting characters names in the first posts, Memlaz.

Oh, so this is the list;

1) Aedui
2) Averni
3) Belgae
4) Celtiberi
5) Sweboz
6) Illyria
7) Noricum
8) Boii
9) Dacians
10) Scythians
11) Sarmatians
12) Saka
13) Nabatea
14) Rome
15) Greek league
16) Macedon
17) Thrace
18) Pontus
19) Armenia
20) Seleucids
21) Egypt
22) Syracuse
23) Pergamnon
24) Massilia
25) Bosphore kingdom
26) Carthage
27) Independents(rebels)

So you will not feature a separate SPQR faction?

What is your opinion on emerging factions?

Like Parthia, or the Teutons/Cimbri or even perhaps the Yuezhi(since the mod already has the Xiongnu files in it)?

[selv]

Oups, I have not been very accurate coming to think of it. Syracuse, bosphore, pergamon and massilia are merged in one faction, greek polis, a little special case this one. To that list you can add the eastern satrapes, Parthes, and two specials non playable romans factions, SPQR and Rivalis. Complicated to explain now why romans have two ai counterparts, but everything is set for it and we have reached the use of the 31 factions slots. SPQR after a little debate and scripting changes will be on map almost permanently, owning rome and being set as a very defensive faction, beside being a integral part of the politic system. They are set to re-emerge in Rome if off-map.
Rivalis, think of it as a 'counter revolutionary' faction linked to the political system and not always on map, I would need to write a 'manual' to really explain and it will have to wait.

So far, regular playables faction aren't set to re-emerge but it might not be necessary depending on playstyle, we will see with feedback and longer tests.

While romans have favoritism, it doesn't mean that we won't adapt what we can or make up new systems for the other factions, but not everyone can have a 'counter faction'. The eastern satraps will have some special gameplay with the seleucids and vice-versa, same with greek polis and greek leagues, the celt factions...

But these aspects are still on early stages of devlopments for non-romans, that's why romans will be the only ones with the full pack at first.

One or two factions might be missing from your list, carthage and numidia if I see clear. Ah, and we have a hidden faction slot needed for scripting and technical purposes, so it make 29 factions + the independants.

[Mamlaz]

To that list you can add the eastern satrapes, Parthes

But how?

At your mods startdate, the Diadochi firmly rule over all those eastern provinces, the formation of Parthia does not occur until 247 BC, 296 turns after your start date.

That is why I asked whether you will implement the Parthians as an emerging invasion faction, as the M2TW had the Mongols.

and two specials non playable romans factions, SPQR and Rivalis. Complicated to explain now why romans have two ai counterparts, but everything is set for it and we have reached the use of the 31 factions slots. SPQR after a little debate and scripting changes will be on map almost permanently, owning rome and being set as a very defensive faction, beside being a integral part of the politic system. They are set to re-emerge in Rome if off-map.
Rivalis, think of it as a 'counter revolutionary' faction linked to the political system and not always on map, I would need to write a 'manual' to really explain and it will have to wait.

That sounds very interesting

Will this be active from the start or just the late republican period?

One or two factions might be missing from your list, carthage and numidia

I did list Carthage but not Numidia, however, your merger of the Greek states opens up two more slots, so no problem adding them.

The extra free slot should perhaps be saved for a second emergent invasion faction, the Teutons/Cimbri?

[rafmc1989]

ok, explained everything... yes count them as 30, one faction is "off" or the oracles and other scripting systems, we need it, cannot be an extra faction, then...

So, full list as follows:

1) Aedui
2) Averni
3) Belgae
4) Celtiberi
5) Sweboz
6) Illyria
7) Noricum
8) Boii
9) Dacians
10) Scythians
11) Sarmatians
12) Saka
13) Nabatea
14) Rome (imperialists later)
15) Greek league
16) Macedon
17) Thrace
18) Pontus
19) Armenia
20) Seleucids
21) Egypt
22) Greek Independent Poleis
23) Numidia
24) Carthage
25) Garamantes (off map at first, later they are invaders in Africa regions, non playable)
26) Eastern Satrapes (vassal-kingdom of Seleucids)
27) Parthians (ah, selv, for historic reasons, at this timeframe they are still very friendly with seleucids, don't forget)
28) Roman Rivalis (emergent faction linked to political system and Civil War: the Republican side)
29) SPQR (yes, selv, as said, they need to stay in Rome, the new label will do the rest, dont worry)
30) Independents(rebels)

31)... off faction for oracles and scripting

for the parthians, a bit of treatment, as could be seen as well as another satrape, vassal of Seleucids (the units roster won't change for them in any case, they have their own already)...

[Mamlaz]

26) Eastern Satrapes (vassal-kingdom of Seleucids)

Could you elaborate please?

What is this?

for the parthians, a bit of treatment, as could be seen as well as another satrape, vassal of Seleucids (the units roster won't change for them in any case, they have their own already)...

Excuse me, but the Parni had nothing to do with the Seleucids until they invaded Parthia from the north and formed their state under the Arsacids(commonly known as the Parthian Empire).

They were not the rebels, they were one of the Dahae tribes who invaded from the north and conquered the rebellious satrap.

Hence my suggestion above.

[rafmc1989]

haha, ok so the in-game names (I didn't have them at hand):

-Tapuria-Traxiane Satrapes (Eastern Satrapies): it will be a protectorate (satrap-province of Seleucids)
-Māda-Hyrkanya (Median-Hyrcanians): satrapal province of seleucids (either ally or more presumably protectorate, under revision)

Both factions had some reskins of units (then, if the need rises, I can make two full new rosters deleting the existing, but not a strict priority atm)...

[selv]

But how?

At your mods startdate, the Seleucids firmly rule over all those eastern provinces, the formation of Parthia does not occur until 247 BC, 296 turns after your start date.

That is why I asked whether you will implement the Parthians as an emerging invasion faction, as the M2TW had the Mongols.



That sounds very interesting

Will this be active from the start or just the late republican period?



I did list Carthage but not Numidia, however, your merger of the Greek states opens up two more slots, so no problem adding them.

The extra free slot should perhaps be saved for a second emergent invasion faction, the Teutons/Cimbri?

The romans politic and possible civil wars if you can't avoid them or just want one once in a while will be active for all the campaign. In two lines, it count numbers of points increased/decreased for various actions/decisions of your faction, you can check your status at any time in game, trying to stay good with the senate and the people while keeping the opposition counter down to avoid civils wars,or let some internal rivals trying to oppose you, or get enough senators pissed of to become the opposition yourself. Then emergents scripts fire and start a civil war.
There are numbers of failsafe so it doesn't eat away half your empire unless you actually loose, or start if your faction is yet too small but the bigger your empire is, bigger might grow the civil war if you let it. How many settlements will switch side and where isn't set in stone, and happen gradually, not all at once. So you can decide if you want to let it grow a while or try to shut it down right away. And it include zero scripted huge doomstacks, the garrisons that the game itself spawn during the firing of faction_emerge are often more than respectable, then you decide if you want/can deal with them right away or let things grow a while.

The real ones from the late republic, while similar scripting is part of something else, there it include some real names characters spawning, and you even get to choose your side. Then either a 'real' Caesar can spawn, or one of your general will be 'Caesar' with a other name, challenging a real Pompee. There I ended up vaguely explaining but it's just a example, and not so easy to summarize for the late game.
Rome has severals scenarios trying to mix roleplay/history during the campaign, starting from turn zero and not involving internal wars. But it's not a super forced railroad either and you can do as you like, knowing you won't see everything if you invade some territories too soon. With time and later versions, I hope to give as many 'meat' to other factions.

About the eastern satrapy, technically Seleucos was just a little satrap after murdering his boss with his pals in -321, so he can't start big. Eastern satrap fill two roles, at first they represent those eastern satraps not so concerned by the western side of Alexander's empire, then later they can become the vassal eastern side of a seleucid empire, representing the divisions of it for instance, and emulate a part of Bactria in the process.
So yes, it's half a 'game device' but it can work and give a fresher approach, in what form on the long run is still on early devlopment as I said.

At first, I setted the parthes to start as a Dahae tribe, but rafmc took a other approach and it can work as well, maybe even better with the similar principle of 'half a game device'. We have to cut corners and adapt history to the game, the other way around is not really possible with all the hardcoded.

Ah, regarding hordes, there are currently the sarmatians, saka and guaramantes but it's too represent their more nomadic ways, not some doomstacks invasions. I can do invasions a lot better with rebels stack or emergences scripts. Cimbri/Teutons will have something with rebels but maybe not in the first version.

[rafmc1989]

yes, the Roman politics is a bit complex to explain in a few lines, we'll need to provide a list of features at release time..

Whereas, the East satrapes are essentially a vassal, and so will be for the Hyrcanians too (another troubled region of the empire, but at the start date it will be protectorate the same): so selv, don't forget to adjust the diplomatic settings in the meantime...

For the "spawning rebel hordes", like the cimbri, they wont be a real faction, the Sweboz already represent a confederation of Germanic tribes in DBM, it would be just a wasted clone faction.. but, to sum up, rebel hordes is a feature to complete through time...

[Mamlaz]

haha, ok so the in-game names (I didn't have them at hand):

-Tapuria-Traxiane Satrapes (Eastern Satrapies): it will be a protectorate (satrap-province of Seleucids)
-Māda-Hyrkanya (Median-Hyrcanians): satrapal province of seleucids (either ally or more presumably protectorate, under revision)

Both factions had some reskins of units (then, if the need rises, I can make two full new rosters deleting the existing, but not a strict priority atm)...

About the eastern satrapy, technically Seleucos was just a little satrap after murdering his boss with his pals in -321, so he can't start big. Eastern satrap fill two roles, at first they represent those eastern satraps not so concerned by the western side of Alexander's empire, then later they can become the vassal eastern side of a seleucid empire, representing the divisions of it for instance, and emulate a part of Bactria in the process.
So yes, it's half a 'game device' but it can work and give a fresher approach, in what form on the long run is still on early devlopment as I said.

Ah, so along the lines of the partition of Babylon?

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...ps_babylon.png


So Seleucus will only be a one province ruler in Babylon?

Will any satraps/successors west of Babylon also be featured?

Will you feature in any way Alexanders' son, Alexander IV, who was officially still ruler of all those lands(under regency) until 309 BC?

I mean, the Macedonian Empire still exists technically until 309 and the successors are fighting for the regency over Alexander IV.

At first, I setted the parthes to start as a Dahae tribe, but rafmc took a other approach and it can work as well, maybe even better with the similar principle of 'half a game device'. We have to cut corners and adapt history to the game, the other way around is not really possible with all the hardcoded.

Well, alright, perhaps just put the Parthians in the territory of the Dahae then instead of already in Parthia?

Ah, regarding hordes, there are currently the sarmatians, saka and guaramantes but it's too represent their more nomadic ways, not some doomstacks invasions. I can do invasions a lot better with rebels stack or emergences scripts. Cimbri/Teutons will have something with rebels but maybe not in the first version.

Ah, ok.